Canadian Election

[Trevor]

about the number of votes per riding, national voter turnout was 59% down about 5% from last election and 8% from 1997. (saw it/heard about it on CityTV last night)

[Vandalhart]

There were more than a few people here at work that didn't vote.
It frustrates the crap out of me.. but in the end, if they aren't going to make an educated vote, I'd rather they didn't.

That also being said, I know people who voted conservative just because they "think" they are conservative because of their parents. So.. much.. frustration.

[Charla]

So how about explaining a little of this to the latitudinaly challenged around here. From what I understand of Parliamentary systems, the majority party gets to pick the PM. So in this case, that would make Quebec Separatists the current majority, yet apparently they've decided to form a coalition with the Conservatives and back Harper rather than nominate their own PM? Are they not interested in having a majority government? Do they gain more politically by aligning themselves with one of the minority parties? Or are they barred from nominating a PM somehow?

edit: so apparently I misinterpreted some of the numbers on the first page, but at least some of my questions are still usable. What's the political advantage for the bloc to form a coalition with the Conservatives?

[Elesirdur]

So how about explaining a little of this to the latitudinaly challenged around here. From what I understand of Parliamentary systems, the majority party gets to pick the PM. So in this case, that would make Quebec Separatists the current majority, yet apparently they've decided to form a coalition with the Conservatives and back Harper rather than nominate their own PM? Are they not interested in having a majority government? Do they gain more politically by aligning themselves with one of the minority parties? Or are they barred from nominating a PM somehow?

No, the Conservatives have a plurality of seats in the House (i.e. elected members of their party) and therefore their leader may petition the Governor General, the representative of the Crown in Canada, to form Government. The Liberals, with the second most seats at 76 (I think) form the Loyal Opposition, and the Bloc Quebecois at 50 seats forms the Third Party, and the NDP with 37 seats the Fourth Party.

From what I have read, the Bloc have not said they would form an official coalition with the Conservatives to form a true majority. Given the disparity between the Bloc and Conservatives on a number of policies, mostly social and tax, it is unlikely the Bloc with vote with the Government on anything that does not directly benefit Quebec (which is pretty much how they always vote in the house). The Bloc have a lot of power in the House because they have the members to swing the Centre-Left parties motions and bills with approval, and can also force the Government to give concessions to Quebec in exchange for supporting Conservative motions.

It's also worth mentioning that Quebec does have special status when it comes to federal government funding in Canada. Whereas in the other 9 provinces federal funding for federal/provincial programs like Transportation and health care (which are under the direct authority of the Provinces, but there are federal standards they must adhere to if they want to get their federal funding payments) come with a lot of strings attached, Quebec basically gets a carte blanche from the feds to do as they see fit. This is a direct legacy of the Tredeau and Mulroney administrations in the 70s and 80s when relations with Quebec were at dangerous lows.

Back to answering your question, but if the Bloc somehow did manage to elect a minority government taking the plurality of seats then there is no law or regulation barring them from going to the Governor General and getting ascent to form Government. However, there are only 75 seats in Quebec, and the Bloc would never in a million years get a seat outside of Quebec, and Anglo parts of Montreal havetraditionally been a Liberal stronghold, BUT if they did manage to get all 75 ridings in Quebec elected with Bloc members, that would mean that of the remaining 233 seats in the House they would have to be nearly evenly split between the three other major parties AND have at least 9 seats go to a fifth party like the Greens.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that there is no regulation or law that would prevent the Bloc as a seperatist party from forming Government, but the mathematics and practical realities make it nigh-impossible.

[Charla]

Or on a slightly longer timescale, a population shift could simply redraw the parliamentary allocation, but that's even more unlikely for other reasons. Basically I keep hearling about parliamentary coalitions, and didn't realize it was possible to have a cabinet without convincing 50% of the seats to vote for it one way or another.

On the other hand, this description does make it more or less clear how Mr. Harper could consider his government unruly and unleadable, as he has to not only keep his own party happy but also try to make concessions to at least 2 other significant policy positions.

From my point of view at least, it does provide a useful case study on an alternative to the permanent two-party system (give or take Lieberman and Jesse Ventura).

[Elesirdur]

The funny thing is that, as far as parliamentary democracies go, Canada is incredibly bad at having its elected parties and members work together. In countries like France, Germany, or even Japan of late, coalitions of two or more somewhat-aligned parties forming a government is not the exception, it's practically the rule. In those countries, however, the process of coalition building and management makes doing business in parliament very difficult and has lead, in the past, to sessions of parliament doing absolutely nothing worthwhile and effectively crippling the bureaucracy.

In my mind at least, the reticence to forming coalitions in Canada stems from the regional disparity of many of the political parties in Canada, as well as their individual histories of extreme divergence on policy and mission in the 141 years since confederation. The extreme levels of party discipline that are enforced in the House of Commons is another contributing factor, with members of the House very rarely getting to vote "their conscience", as the phrase goes in Ottawa. Voting against the party in a whipped vote will likely get a member thrown out of caucus and unless they were elected as an independent or on massive personal popularity, is a death sentence to their political career.

The Prime Minister has the ability to invite any sitting member of the House, and technically even the Senate in special circumstances, to become a member of cabinet. In the past, PM's of minority governments have invited a member or two of the Third or Fourth Party to be a member of cabinet, but without a portfolio, as a concession to the political climate in the House to try and get some work done. However, this is a very rare situation.

[Thoronas]

I liked it better when the conservatives were broken up into two parties. Now they're so focused, they can scoop up right leaning voters across the country and leave all the left voters splintered. Before, the conservatives were very regionally based around the reform and canadian alliance party.

I have to grudgingly give the Conservatives credit for running a very tight platform. It's brutal to watch because it really is a highly organized propaganda campaign but it worked.

I think the conservatives were lucky that the liberal party is much more fractured now. Rae and Ignateiff weren't doing Dion any favours behind the scenes you can be sure.

[Blarg]

Yeah, Briony Penn in Saanich-Gulf Islands who lost by about 2500 votes, EVEN WHEN 3800 PEOPLE VOTED FOR A NON-EXISTENT NDP CANDIDATE - THANKS FOR ELECTING GARY "the midget" LUNN AGAIN DICKBAGS

/angryfacepalm

Did the pictures/billboards of Briony make her look like she had a mustache to you too?

[Elesirdur]

Did the pictures/billboards of Briony make her look like she had a mustache to you too?

Having met her in person I can tell you she does have a bit of a 'stache going on - not like in the Greek/Italian woman way, but just a bit more fuzz than the average lady. Probably didn't wax before her photo shoot >_>

[Kaylia]

At least now Harper's going to have a tough time justifying spending roughly 240 millions for an election that brought him to the same setup that he qualified as "chaotic, unruly and impossible to lead"

That's kinda stupid. The oppositions rarely do any concession and keep the government hands tied. It's not always the government fault is they can't govern in this scenario.


Government: Economy isn't doing well, we need to cut something somewhere
Opposition: Waah waah waah. Look how evil they are, they are stealing your money.
At this point, the only thing they can do is go back, or do another election.


I'm all for giving opposition some power, but they are keeping the government in hostage more than anything. Anyway, politic situation in canada is ridiculous right now, and I'm blamming the bloc entirely for it. Their party is fucking useless as a whole, cost millions to maintain and they get a lot more people elected than they should have with ~35% vote in a province.

[Blarg]

Kaylia, kinda related but do you hear/see much pro separatist talk where you live?

[Kaylia]

Kaylia, kinda related but do you hear/see much pro separatist talk where you live?

When I was a kid, it was close to 50-60% where I was living (small town). I think the poll were around 50% at the time (referendum ended 49.2% vs 50.8% or some shit).


Right now, I personally don't know anyone around my age (between 20-27) who vote for the bloc, and most people are fed up with the cause.
Actually, I don't really know anyone in my social life who still vote for them

Maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but i definitively see the trend dying somewhere soon, unless something major happen. The younger people don't care as much about the culture, and they understand nothing good is going to come out of it.


[edit]
ton of edit again...i'm tired

[Metah]

Its a good thing I didn't vote. Wouldn't have made a difference anyway.

[Rhyis.]

Its a good thing I didn't vote. Wouldn't have made a difference anyway.

Sigh.

59% people. Wtf.

[Mytiwar]

Anyway, politic situation in canada is ridiculous right now, and I'm blamming the bloc entirely for it. Their party is fucking useless as a whole, cost millions to maintain and they get a lot more people elected than they should have with ~35% vote in a province.

The bloc is pretty much necessary for Quebec because if it didn't exist, the vote rate would probably drop below the 40%.

You can't say a party is fucking useless when it DOES represent a decent part of the Canadians as a whole (third party in importance in parliament) and it also does represent the ideals of a culture.
Duceppe sounds pretty retarded sometimes I'll give you that but he fights against Harper's government which I hate more than anything. Can't vote for Dion because well... no spine, he looks like a monkey and was basing his platform on some ecological plan nobody believed in.

I do agree with the fact they are over represented compared to their vote percentage though... but this is the way the voting is handled and not much we can do aboot it. :3

Basically you can't flame a party for existing, because as long as it represents people it's necessary for the democracy. A party will never be a waste of money, you can't have enough in my opinion.

P.S.: I voted NDP, just saying even if 90% of the voters are retarded and have no clue... this is what democracy is all aboot, everyone has the right to follow whatever they believe in. :3

[Kaylia]

Just vote for the NPD (not directed at you, but to every people who voted for the bloc) if you want to vote for the left wing, it's like the Bloc, except they aren't self centered and have a complete program.

Bloc really have life easy, they can whine all day long about everything, but they never have to propose better alternative. Well, they do propose better alternative, I'm simply not sure most of those are even reasonable (yay, give everyone more money and everything will go well!)

Look at it this way, out of the 20millions who voted, around 1.5m wanted the bloc elected. That's 8%. (6% if you distribute the vote). Why they have 17% of the seat? I seriously don't think they represent Quebec well, or do any good to canada as a whole.


[edit]
Their tactic to get vote is just unfair and anti democratic in my opinion.

[edit2]
What I mean by this is that media have been biased for years by separatist cause. It's the same select few who are constantly demonizing the rest of the canada. They are gaining a lot of support from this, and it is sad.

[Annihilator]

I was listening to SRC (the french equivalent of CBC) and they mentionned something interresting

During this election campaign, not once has the Bloc mentionned independence or separation from canada

This resulted in even some of the english speaking majorities of some Montreal ridings to actually vote for them in mass since they were the only anti-conservatives alternative in most ridings. They would probably have ended up with less votes, less seats, and gotten more conservatives elected had they brought the issue up

The Quebec independance has effectively been mostly cast aside by the huge post-1995 referendum propaganda of the Chretien era, nowadays most people have other issues to worry about

I personally believe that we all stand a better chance if we are united then separated and fighting amongst ourselves, and would most likely have voted NDP if they had even a slight chance here, or if i knew the conservatives didnt. But as far as things goes, blocking Harper seemed to be the top priority on a lot of people's list, and a lot of movements were giving everyone tips on how to do that (just check unissonsnosvoix.ca, they have links that show your riding based on your postal code, and showed which candidates had a better chance of beating the conservatives based on the latest surveys)

I'm sure that had at least some impact in people's voting choices, hopefully enough to turn the blue tide that could have swept a lot more ridings by uniting the majority (anti-conservatives) together to try and accomplish something

And as Layton found out after the last elections, just because you have very few seats or are at the other end of the political spectrum from the leading party, doesn't mean you can't accomplish anything. He struck a deal with Harper during the first budget to include some of the NDP priorities in the budget in exchange for his party's votes. That is the kind of thing that makes every party worthwile in a minority government, since the leading party has to get approval from one of them to get anything done, and now that the parties arent scared of Harper calling another election and winning majority (at least for some time) they should be able to ask for more in exchange for their support

[Elesirdur]

Even way out West here in coastal BC, I get the feeling that the Bloc has transformed to less of a separatist party to one that is most concerned with the needs of Quebec first. Because of the special relationship Quebec has with the Government of Canada the Bloc is well positioned to faciliate this role, whereas the other Provinces and territories have to rely on the own provincial governments and First Minister's conferences to get even a fraction of what Quebec can command through the Bloc in the House.

[Ratatapa]

The bloc, job is simple, making sure we don't get a majority in Canada.<

I understand that the bloc alone cannot do it, but just calculate, bloc got 48 seats in QC and harper missed 13 to be majority. Yes bloc is not omg wtf but they still helped not making Harper majority


Anyway what am i good for, i'm from QC and didn't vote so.

[Olo401]

Even way out West here in coastal BC, I get the feeling that the Bloc has transformed to less of a separatist party to one that is most concerned with the needs of Quebec first. Because of the special relationship Quebec has with the Government of Canada the Bloc is well positioned to faciliate this role, whereas the other Provinces and territories have to rely on the own provincial governments and First Minister's conferences to get even a fraction of what Quebec can command through the Bloc in the House.

I wonder if this "transformation" will lead the bloc to either an alliance/merger with the NDP or Libs, or if they may start a new national party outright with the momentum they have already in Quebec..