University Shooting at Western Kentucky

[Day]

You don't think that if 50% of a school population were carrying firearms there would be more victims of gun related violence? I have some ocean front property I'd like to sell you guys.

[Stiker]

You don't think that if 50% of a school population were carrying firearms there would be more victims of gun related violence? I have some ocean front property I'd like to sell you guys.

If you think that 50% of a school population would be carrying and licensed to do so even if given the option to do so, I think I have the same ocean front property to sell you. The number of people that would actually carry on school grounds would be the same small number of people that legally carry in public now which is not that large.

[Suited Aces]

You'd expect a campus to have higher security, just like you would in a hospital, business building, or important government building, and i'm not too sure, but i think those places do not allow you to carry guns inside.

It varies from state to state. Only places I know that are national restricted is Gov't buildings (court houses, post offices, ect.) and public schools (gun-free zones).

Any business or establishment has the right to post a "no guns allowed" sign and that too would have to be honored.

Edit: also in any area run by the DNR (state and national parks) firearms are prohibited. There is legislation to ease this restriction though.

Any business or establishment also has the right to ask you to leave the premises without a sign. This goes for anything though, if they don't like your haircut or the way you dress they can ask you to leave and you have to comply.

[Stiker]

No one has yet shown any information that shows that arming students is more effective than just making security tighter, and while better security, which would entail more guards, detectors and a tight regulation on who enters the campus, is an obvious solution as it directly addresses the problem, arming the students seems to be a indirect solution, making the justification required for its use very steep. I would prefer to go with the more obvious and less convoluted solution instead of the one that has not proved it can work nor are its benefits quite so obvious.

I fully agree with this.

[Aerin]

If you think that 50% of a school population would be carrying and licensed to do so even if given the option to do so, I think I have the same ocean front property to sell you. The number of people that would actually carry on school grounds would be the same small number of people that legally carry in public now which is not that large.

And if half the population isn't carrying a gun then what's the point. It's highly unlikely that the student would be in the room being shot. And if he's not he should be running as Remy pointed out.

[Churchill]

considering he said unless you're a professional and your argument relates to people who are professionals...I threw that in there to say that we aren't talking about professionals

I'm making a point on this statement: Ask cops that have rarely had to draw a weapon and they'll tell you that frequently the training goes out the window.

Yeah, I went on a tangent that agreed with his first sentence, my point was in reference to the quote above.

Day: I'd wear it in VA, but knowing that a fight could happen, I'd only do it if I had my usual crew with me. I can fight, but I can't fight a large group. More than three and it gets sketchy.

[Rhinox]

However, arguments against CC in schools based on the "more people will die and therefore it is bad" or "everyone will start shooting everyone when they see a CC pull a gun" stances don't hold water in my opinion. The issue of carrying on school grounds is purely moral/opinion based. You are going to be very hard pressed to convince me CC isn't a good idea because you think schools would turn into the OK Corral.

It was just a scenario. Never once said it would happen. because quite frankly theres a small chance of it happening. Just like theres a small chance of of there being a VT occurance that would warrant the need for CC in schools. Like I said School mass shootings do not happen on a daily basis as some of these assholes would lead you to believe.

[Rhinox]

Google "bystander with concealed firearm stops shooter" you'll find a couple hundred.

Including one specifically for what you asked for:


Hero Stops Mass Shooting:

Spoiler: show

From a Winnemucca, Nevada police statement:

On Sunday May 25, 2008 at approximately 2:30 a.m. the Winnemucca Police Department was dispatched to the Players Bar and Grill .... There were approximately 300 patrons in and around the bar....

The officers on scene discovered three adult males who had died from obvious gunshot wounds. Two additional gunshot victims were also located[, treated, and released from the hospital]....

The ... investigation lead detectives to believe that [Ernesto Fuentes] Villagomez[, 30,] entered the bar and at some point began firing multiple rounds. At least two of these rounds struck and killed the other two decedents, Jose Torres age, 20 and his brother Margarito Torres, age 19 both of Winnemucca. At some point during this shooting spree Villagomez allegedly stopped and according to witnesses reloaded his high capacity handgun and began shooting again.

It was at this point that ... [a 48-year-old Reno man] produced a concealed handgun and proceeded to fire upon Villagomez who succumbed to his wounds. The Reno resident was in possession of a valid Concealed Carry Permit issued through the Washoe County Sheriff’s Office.... [T]he shooting of Villagomez by the Reno man was [concluded to be] a justifiable homicide ....

The investigation is currently pursuing a lead that indicates that this event may have been the result of a long standing feud between several families....

My hat is off to the anonymous man who likely could have blended into the crowd and escaped, but who put himself at considerable risk to protect the lives of others.

Must suck to be wrong.


Now someone find me a story where a bystander with a concealed firearm shot another bystander with a concealed firearm.

If you can find *one* I'll be impressed, and even finding one doesn't make the point.

Or you can google women/man killed in Police crossfire to see the potential of what can happen.


oh wait thats right Joe the plumber has better training then a police officer so this can't possibly happen.

[Khamsin]

Police crossfire is irrelevant, since there will be no police, just bystanders with permits. They don't tend to hit unintended targets in crossfire as often as police do. Which, I guess, is another reason to arm the students rather than bringing in officers.

[fantasticdan]

You'd expect a campus to have higher security, just like you would in a hospital, business building, or important government building, and i'm not too sure, but i think those places do not allow you to carry guns inside. The point is security is what needs to be emphasized, not arming people as if the campus were a warzone; it shouldn't be, because it's a place of study, and one would expect that a place of study would be peaceful, hence why arming the students as if they should expect to get attacked in a place of study seems ridiculous.

Have you been to a college campus? Most are spread out across many buildings, over a large open area. Realistically, if you wanted to keep guns out of the buildings, you'd have to lock down all the windows, and lock down all the doors except for one or two per building covered by metal detectors and security guards than can check everyone going in and out. Do you know how much nightmare it would be just getting between buildings/classes? Do you know how expensive this would be, and how much it would drive up the price of tuition? Smart killers could still find a way to get guns into the buildings, and it does nothing to prevent shootings that could happen on campus between buildings. Ultimately this kind of security bullshit does nothing but alienate the student, cost an insane of money, and waste a lot of everyone's time.

I mean sure, keep some security guards and maybe a couple cops if it's particularly large campus, but schools already do this.

[Darus Grey]

No one has yet shown any information that shows that arming students is more effective than just making security tighter, and while better security, which would entail more guards, detectors and a tight regulation on who enters the campus, is an obvious solution as it directly addresses the problem, arming the students seems to be a indirect solution, making the justification required for its use very steep. I would prefer to go with the more obvious and less convoluted solution instead of the one that has not proved it can work nor are its benefits quite so obvious.

Problem with that is there's very few campuses that allow CC, as such how are you going to prove it? I'd say the burden of proof is on the otherside, and the only parallels we can really use are places off-campus(which in my view again is no different than on campus) where there's plenty of stories of CCers using their guns responsibly to help fight crime and other shooters. Of course others will argue that there's CCers who also use their gun to commit crime...but that's irrelevant because using a licensed gun to commit a crime is fucking retarded to begin with(and thus said idiots are outliers in the statistical field who would likely commit violent crimes whether they had a permit or not).

[Day]

I know I want to see more guns on campus yo, can't wait actually, why stop there though maybe we can get some nuclear warheads that will fit in backpacks and 5% of the school population can carry them around, no one will mess with anyone for sure then. No more of this fist fighting crap, every drunken argument can now be resolved with lethal violence. Let's try it out. What you guys think?

[Beckwin]

this topic is kinda retarded. I think Kuya and Nystul have pretty much nailed it though. Churchill needs to stop trolling.

The bro scene on college is watered down gang culture with more psychadelics. fuck letting those assholes have guns in their dorms and classrooms.

Having a gun doesn't make you immune to harm from other shooters. at best, there are a handful of situations where someone with a gun and a clue can put a stop to someone with a gun but without a clue. those cases are rare, and I'd rather have actual police/security responding and deterring in general. on top of that, school shootings are even rarer. honestly for all rhinox's hyperbole and whatnot in this topic, the parachute thing is fairly fitting, because people are proposing a sort of individual-based "protection" for randomized and statistically rare occurrences.

[Kuya]

Have you been to a college campus? Most are spread out across many buildings, over a large open area. Realistically, if you wanted to keep guns out of the buildings, you'd have to lock down all the windows, and lock down all the doors except for one or two per building covered by metal detectors and security guards than can check everyone going in and out. Do you know how much nightmare it would be just getting between buildings/classes? Do you know how expensive this would be, and how much it would drive up the price of tuition? Smart killers could still find a way to get guns into the buildings, and it does nothing to prevent shootings that could happen on campus between buildings. Ultimately this kind of security bullshit does nothing but alienate the student, cost an insane of money, and waste a lot of everyone's time.

I mean sure, keep some security guards and maybe a couple cops if it's particularly large campus, but schools already do this.

Yes i do know what a college campus looks like, and it should have a perimeter around it, and just as well there should be officials patrolling the vicinity, that is, assuming your campus cares enough to provide for your security, but judging from the way certain Americans seem to view the value of education, i'd guess that must be an issue.

If campus shootings are really as big of an issue as you guys are making it out to be, which must be true since you want students to carry guns in there as if it were Detroit, then the price, discomfort, and work that needs to go in to increase security should be of no concern, assuming it's such a large issue that we even have to suggest allowing students to bring guns into a campus in the first place, but hey, i'm just suggesting another extreme solution for a situation that isn't all that dire, aren't i?

[Kuya]

Problem with that is there's very few campuses that allow CC, as such how are you going to prove it? I'd say the burden of proof is on the otherside, and the only parallels we can really use are places off-campus(which in my view again is no different than on campus) where there's plenty of stories of CCers using their guns responsibly to help fight crime and other shooters. Of course others will argue that there's CCers who also use their gun to commit crime...but that's irrelevant because using a licensed gun to commit a crime is fucking retarded to begin with(and thus said idiots are outliers in the statistical field who would likely commit violent crimes whether they had a permit or not).

So we're just supposed to assume that it's better than spending more on security, Darus?

[fantasticdan]

Yes i do know what a college campus looks like, and it should have a perimeter around it, and just as well there should be officials patrolling the vicinity, that is, assuming your campus cares enough to provide for your security, but judging from the way certain Americans seem to view the value of education, i'd guess that must be an issue.

What kind of perimeter? A giant fucking wall with the only way in being a security check point? A perimeter of hundreds of security guards stopping and searching every student for weapons? There is no solution that is both realistic, and actually stops a killer with common sense from getting a gun onto campus.

Every campus has security guards hanging around and patrolling for potential problems, but how does that stop someone from sneaking in a handgun? It doesn't.

[Lliandra]

Considering the main point of your post made that little statement absolutely unnecessary, one would need to question why you even added that bit of statistics.

Take a look around this thread. There are far more posts with more bollocks and rubbish in than mine. Was mine the weakest to take a troll at? Gj! I now feel inferior to you.

Brb while i QQ and /wirst.

¬_¬

[Kuya]

What kind of perimeter? A giant fucking wall with the only way in being a security check point? A perimeter of hundreds of security guards stopping and searching every student for weapons? There is no solution that is both realistic, and actually stops a killer with common sense from getting a gun onto campus.

Every campus has security guards hanging around and patrolling for potential problems, but how does that stop someone from sneaking in a handgun? It doesn't.

In my University, the school is surrounded by both walls and barbed fences, there really isn't any way someone could get in without being seen or tripping an alarm; you can mostly only enter via the gates, or the train station that's built beneath the campus, but then again, we've never had a campus shooting.

And as for the second part of the post; i thought we were already clear that we weren't trying to build the perfect university a la Plato. I think we can stop with the "But it doesn't stop campus shootings completely!" polemic, because i haven't levied any charges that the idea of letting students bring guns is imperfect, just that it's unnecessary.

[0ni0n]

sure, give all the students permission to carry arms on campus, because we all know college students are a responsible bunch, they will never drink and drive or anything, much less drink and carry arms.

[Gregorio]

In my University, the school is surrounded by both walls and barbed fences, there really isn't any way someone could get in without being seen or tripping an alarm; you can mostly only enter via the gates, or the train station that's built beneath the campus, but then again, we've never had a campus shooting.

I've never been to a school in the US like that. In fact, many college campus's's's in the US are located in the middle of cities. The largest city near me has 2 colleges alone, and it's not even that big. Imagine doing something like that in New York or Philly. I went to Penn State, which is a giant campus and has hundreds of buildings and more than 40k students. While the campus COULD be blocked off from the rest of the city, it would probably have the same effect of putting a fence along the border of the US. Place is way to large to patrol enough.

If you have a college with a few hundred people located away from other civilization that's one thing. But the vast majority of schools in the US aren't like that.