Is one side of RMT hated and the other embraced?

[Tempyst]

And what the fricken hell is up with people not understanding what an analogy is? Comparing the cause and effect of rape, murder, cancer to RMT is not saying RMT is rape, murder or cancer. I have a pet peeve when people get on their high horse when an analogy is used. Analogies allow perspective on a subject by relating the cause and effect of something else that holds some similarities (ie RMT/cheating and murder are both wrong). It's so sad that I have to explain what an analogy is.

Because comparing RMT to rape just seems to demonstrate a perilous lack of any kind of perspective in the grand scheme of importance

and very rarely do the causes and effects of the two "Crimes" have anything to do with each other

[Kenji]

According to you, there is something you can do about RMT and brain cancer, so you're talking out of your ass about the fallacy already. Further, cancer is a prolific ailment, found in many people. It doesn't simply affect the people with the disease, it can do horrible emotional damage to the patient's family members. Many doctors research ways to combat it. Good diet and holistic crap may have it's effects, but without proper medical care, someone with cancer will succumb to it. The individual works by educating himself about the disease and the medical organizations work to destroy the root of the problem. Everyone involved works on it, but only the organizations and the disease have any real power.

Cancer is very much like the RMT situation, since it's eating away at our community and sometimes it sprouts hair and teeth. If it were exactly the same, it wouldn't be a fucking analogy, but I'll explain the main points for you. They're both problems with solutions and just as a doctor wont do everything they can about a tumor if a person doesn't have enough insurance, SE wont do more without enough incentive, e.g. the PW/AV situation. In both situations there's little to nothing the patient can do about it on their own (the patient can be the game or the player, works either way).

Also, you being an idiot and my pointing it out have nothing to do with your shitty point, since I can and have disproved it without attacking your intellect or character, you dumbshit. However, I find it interesting how you're so into your little crusade, but you wont do anything about the people who disagree with you, who seem to be the majority. If you aren't trying to convince the unbelievers, you aren't doing everything you can, meaning you're a hypocrite.

Have you ever considered that A: people are doing everything they can already or B: there is no greater solution to be had?

You like analogies, eh? Fine, try this one on:

Lots of people steal. No matter what we do, people will always steal from each other. We can't stop it. I mean, hypothetically, we could set up some system of enforcement and punishment, but that's a pie-in-the-sky approach because you'll never stop stealing. So why even try?

The only way to get people like you on board, is to find out where you live and hold a gun to your head 24/7. So yes, there is something I could do, but you're not really worth it.

If you are so convinced that my suggestion won't do any good, why are you arguing so strongly against it? After all, if it's doomed to fail, then there should be no need for you to say anything. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Because your little cancer analogy shows how you view the problem: There is nothing you can do.

If you want to feel like a powerless victim, that's up to you. Other people do feel differently. Those people might just try out a solution without you. Maybe various solutions. Only when it looks like one of them might be working, will you join the crowd.

The history of the world is full of people who had ideas. And people who tried to talk them down before the idea was even fully implemented. Human progress is full of trial and error. Some work, and some don't. But people like you have never been useful in that regard.

So continue to whine if you want. You don't want to be part of any solution; you just want to whine about it. I'll eventually find enough people who actually want to try something, instead of sitting with their thumb up their ass.

When you manage to get a bright idea on your own, I'll be willing to listen and discuss possible ways of implementation. At least, that's more than you seem to be willing to do.

[Yugl]

And what the fricken hell is up with people not understanding what an analogy is? Comparing the cause and effect of rape, murder, cancer to RMT is not saying RMT is rape, murder or cancer. I have a pet peeve when people get on their high horse when an analogy is used. Analogies allow perspective on a subject by relating the cause and effect of something else that holds some similarities (ie RMT/cheating and murder are both wrong). It's so sad that I have to explain what an analogy is.

Too bad two of those analogies don't have similar cause and effects similar to RMT. In the first two examples, you exclude the role of RMTs and focus on the gil buyers only. The third example is worse because it equates a biological to a situation to a man made situation. Kenji may be ideological when he states that RMT can be combated if everyone opposes it, but he is correct. If no one participated in RMT, then why would IGE operate in FFXI? There's no money to be made if no one is buying what you're selling. However, is it likely that everyone will stop resorting to RMT? Probably not. Thus, the difference between the third analogy and RMT is that one is unpreventable while the other is preventable. Clearly not a good analogy for this discussion. I think the best types of examples for this would be drugs, illegal weapon distribution, and other illegal sales that involve two parties which harm an external community.

[Eruantalon]

Too bad two of those analogies don't have similar cause and effects similar to RMT. In the first two examples, you exclude the role of RMTs and focus on the gil buyers only. The third example is worse because it equates a biological to a situation to a man made situation. Kenji may be ideological when he states that RMT can be combated if everyone opposes it, but he is correct. If no one participated in RMT, then why would IGE operate in FFXI? There's no money to be made if no one is buying what you're selling. However, is it likely that everyone will stop resorting to RMT? Probably not. Thus, the difference between the third analogy and RMT is that one is unpreventable while the other is preventable. Clearly not a good analogy for this discussion. I think the best types of examples for this would be drugs, illegal weapon distribution, and other illegal sales that involve two parties which harm an external community.

Maybe "cause and effect" was a bad way of explaining how analogies work since some people seem to think that an analogy between rape and RMT means that RMT is rape.

My point was the same way someone would have a moral corruption when dealing with normal crimes is the same way someone has moral corruption when dealing with rampant cheating in an online game. Using an analogy to derive a solution to RMT by using cancer is something that's beyond the point I was making.

There's 2 problems with RMT, practical and moral. My point was about the moral issue of RMT, while the issue of will it go away and how to deal with it is a practical problem. I won't assume to know how to (or if there is even a way) eradicate RMT.

In some way shape or form, you may have given money to the Chicago or NYC mob back in the day. It doesn't mean you can't still be against the mob as a moral issue. (Example: You paid for your groceries at a store paying protection money to the mob). Same goes for RMT. You pay buy shihei off the AH which happens to go to RMT, but would you know?

The whole "everyone else does it so I can do it" argument got really old back in 4th grade. The whole point is to stand up against wrong doing because it's the right thing to do. Not because it's hip, or the thing to do, or because everyone else is or isn't do it.

The thought that wrong and right is up to opinion just shows how morally corrupt a person is. If you want to have an opinion about something, tell me if does my car look better with a blue or purple coat of paint? (I'm leaning towards Ultimate Marine) But there's no opinion about the right or wrong of RMT when they cheat and hack. Technically, no matter who gains a character, bought or not, is cheating because he's gained a character that he's not leveled, job-wise of craft-wise.

No, I don't think RMT will ever stop, but I don't think we should play by their rules and go with their flow. You can twist it any way you want, and try to make yourself look like a good person without coming out and saying "I support RMT." It's like shadow boxing with a politician. They won't come out and say they support something, but they'll try to make it look like they're the good guy no matter what they believe in. In the end, it doesn't really matter if you do support RMT because all it shows is how morally inept you are.

The issue of RMT is a lot like any crime. You can't stop everyone from raping and murdering, but you can put some preventive measures in place and punish those who commit the crime. There will always be someone to buy gil and accounts, and there will always be someone who commits a crime. The point is to stand up against these people to say "no, that's not right" and not say "well, it wasn't me or my friends who got shot, so I don't care" or "if you think murder is wrong, that's your opinion" or "they're gonna rape and murder anyway, why bother?"

They're not the same, but the idea behind it is the same.

[Ksandra]

I say, if you can manage to reap the benefits off a game and have it effect you in a positive manner IRL then more power to you. At the end of the day its still a game, there are tons of other games to play and people to talk to.

^


I probably would never sell my account (I always come back to ff), but srly if it came down to being able to pay rent vs. keeping account. F that I'd sell it.

As much as it affects others in the end irl > game. If any friend got upset about it, then they weren't really a friend to begin with.

[Yugl]

Maybe "cause and effect" was a bad way of explaining how analogies work since some people seem to think that an analogy between rape and RMT means that RMT is rape.

Well I think that's because the analogy is inherently bad to begin with.

My point was the same way someone would have a moral corruption when dealing with normal crimes is the same way someone has moral corruption when dealing with rampant cheating in an online game. Using an analogy to derive a solution to RMT by using cancer is something that's beyond the point I was making.

Well that wasn't specifically a response to you, but rather to whoever made that analogy. I was pointing out that the flaw in such an analogy was that you compare a situation with is improbable to one that is impossible. It's improbable that RMT will be stopped, but it's not entirely impossible.

In some way shape or form, you may have given money to the Chicago or NYC mob back in the day. It doesn't mean you can't still be against the mob as a moral issue. (Example: You paid for your groceries at a store paying protection money to the mob). Same goes for RMT. You pay buy shihei off the AH which happens to go to RMT, but would you know?

That's correct, you cannot determine who you buy your shihei from, and you may not intend to buy it from RMT. However, I think the question that's being debated is whether account/gil buying is worse than account/gil selling. If so, why? Both require intentional initiative and both are forms of RMT.

No, I don't think RMT will ever stop, but I don't think we should play by their rules and go with their flow. You can twist it any way you want, and try to make yourself look like a good person without coming out and saying "I support RMT." It's like shadow boxing with a politician. They won't come out and say they support something, but they'll try to make it look like they're the good guy no matter what they believe in. In the end, it doesn't really matter if you do support RMT because all it shows is how morally inept you are.

The whole "everyone else does it so I can do it" argument got really old back in 4th grade. The whole point is to stand up against wrong doing because it's the right thing to do. Not because it's hip, or the thing to do, or because everyone else is or isn't do it.

This is pretty much what Kenji is arguing.

The thought that wrong and right is up to opinion just shows how morally corrupt a person is. If you want to have an opinion about something, tell me if does my car look better with a blue or purple coat of paint? (I'm leaning towards Ultimate Marine) But there's no opinion about the right or wrong of RMT when they cheat and hack. Technically, no matter who gains a character, bought or not, is cheating because he's gained a character that he's not leveled, job-wise of craft-wise.

Right and wrong are fundamentally based on opinion. During the Battle of Algeria, the French considered Algerians terrorists. However, from the Algerian perspective, they were fighting for liberty from a lingering colonial entity. What determines right or wrong depends on the doctrine you follow or whether you follow a doctrine at all. There is no strict definition of what is right and wrong, but I understand what you are saying. In fact, I don't think anyone disagrees that RMTs who hack accounts and steal are doing harm.

The issue of RMT is a lot like any crime. You can't stop everyone from raping and murdering, but you can put some preventive measures in place and punish those who commit the crime. There will always be someone to buy gil and accounts, and there will always be someone who commits a crime. The point is to stand up against these people to say "no, that's not right" and not say "well, it wasn't me or my friends who got shot, so I don't care" or "if you think murder is wrong, that's your opinion" or "they're gonna rape and murder anyway, why bother?"

I agree, it's improbable that RMT will be fully stopped, but it is possible to severely limit its activity.

[ringthree]

^


I probably would never sell my account (I always come back to ff), but srly if it came down to being able to pay rent vs. keeping account. F that I'd sell it.

As much as it affects others in the end irl > game. If any friend got upset about it, then they weren't really a friend to begin with.

A friend isn't really a friend if they aren't ok with you fucking them over? Yeah... people that would sell their accounts are really mature... /sigh

A mature person would recognize the fact that they can't pay the rent and do something about it. An immature person would ignore the fact that they can't pay the rent until they get to a crisis point then sell their account and say fuck you to all their friends.

LS's help people get gear and stuff that makes the accounts valuable. Do the people that are being "financially mature" when they sell their accounts then pay back all the people that helped them get the gear that they are selling? Where is my cut?

The justifications, no matter what form they come in, are all selfish, plain and simple. And being that selfish is immature, plain and simple.

[Ksandra]

A friend isn't really a friend if they aren't ok with you fucking them over? Yeah... people that would sell their accounts are really mature... /sigh

1. I'm probably older than you

2. you think affecting a VIDEO GAME is severe enough "fucking over" a friend to ruin a relationship?


And you say I'm immature.

[edit] to clarify:

I probably would never sell my account (I always come back to ff), but srly if it came down to being able to pay rent vs. keeping account. F that I'd sell it.

If I came to a friend and told them that I couldn't afford the rent for the month, but selling my account would pay for it. If they got upset and threw a fit, then I would consider them the selfish one, because I'd be trying to save my livelihood, and they are just upset over a game.

[Saithorx]

As much as I don't like those who sell Gil, I hate the buyers tenfold. Remove the reason for the sellers, and the sellers will be gone. Selling is just taking advantage of a market of idiots that won't earn it themselves.

I read a few times that Gilsellers keep the value of items low, but on the other hand, Gilsellers provide people without money the ability to buy an item they would not be able to buy. This causes higher demand on an item. This causes higher prices.

[ringthree]

1. I'm probably older than you

2. you think affecting a VIDEO GAME is severe enough "fucking over" a friend to ruin a relationship?

And you say I'm immature.

LOL, if you really are older than I am then at least I have some comfort when I get bombarded with old jokes on vent.

Yes, I definitely say you are immature if you can actually excuse screwing your friends over just because it is a "VIDEO GAME." This isn't like taking the game back to game stop once you have beaten it, and the fact that you can't figure out that your interactions with other people in the game are interactions with other human beings, albeit ones conducted over the internet, further proves a fundamental lack of maturity.

[edit] to clarify:

If I came to a friend and told them that I couldn't afford the rent for the month, but selling my account would pay for it. If they got upset and threw a fit, then I would consider them the selfish one, because I'd be trying to save my livelihood, and they are just upset over a game.

You completely missed the point here. I think we can discuss this issue on it's relative merits, because creating scenarios like the one you describe do not help your position much because they beg the question of the maturity of someone that would ever reach such a position. If you ever found yourself in a situation where you had to sell your account to pay the rent then you are profoundly immature. This is especially true if you are, in fact, older than I am.

[Yugl]

Ringthree has a point; you should foresee when you will be unable to pay your bills (Unless an accident occurs) and stop paying for FFXI before it gets to that point.

[Ksandra]

LOL, if you really are older than I am then at least I have some comfort when I get bombarded with old jokes on vent.


You completely missed the point here. I think we can discuss this issue on it's relative merits, because creating scenarios like the one you describe do not help your position much because they beg the question of the maturity of someone that would ever reach such a position. If you ever found yourself in a situation where you had to sell your account to pay the rent then you are profoundly immature. This is especially true if you are, in fact, older than I am.

I think you missed my point which is, no matter how "immature/selfish" you think someone is for selling their account, the friend in question is also "immature/selfish" for getting upset over a video game. And I would credit the friend for being more selfish than the seller depending on the situation.


Also I'll admit I'm 28, I could be younger than you but for the most part I also get old jokes on vent as most of the people in my ls are 23 and younger.


[edit] @Yugl

I am not in that situation, it was hypothetical. I am planning on deactivating my acc once paying off a friend (gil-wise, don't worry not buying it) because I've been playing warhammer, and ff isn't fun for me anymore. But I will admit atm I am not in a job that gives health benefits, and can't afford it myself (I normally work 2 jobs but had to leave one, when I get a second again I'll be ok to pay).

If by chance I were to get into an accident before I got my second job, and I needed money to pay for it, sure I'd sell my acc, because again if a friend couldn't understand me selling the account because I needed the money(because they don't want it to affect their video game) , is not a good friend imo.

[Seraph]

If I came to a friend and told them that I couldn't afford the rent for the month, but selling my account would pay for it. If they got upset and threw a fit, then I would consider them the selfish one, because I'd be trying to save my livelihood, and they are just upset over a game.

I actually have to side with Ringthree on this one. Telling someone that all the time you have spent together is less important than a one month delay of your problems is quite insulting in my eyes. I have had close game friends have real life issues come up, and they had to suspend their play. They didn't just go off and sell all of their stuff and character for a quick money fix though. You seem to imply that people shouldn't be upset in the event you left the game. I would suggest that implies a lack of close ingame acquaintances.

The intent might not be "Hey all you FFXI people I used to play with, screw you!" when you sell your account. However, it definately comes off as it, at least in my eyes. I'd rather a close friend play less, or take a break, as opposed to being forced to abandon the reason we were friends in the first place. A dick move, even with the best of intentions or in the worst of situations, is still a dick move.

And honestly, how many people are really selling their accounts to pay the rent? Are we going to go back to 'the chinese gil farmer just trying to feed his faimly' excuse? You can try to justify actions all you want, doesn't mean people have to agree with you, or like the results.

[ringthree]

I think you missed my point which is, no matter how "immature/selfish" you think someone is for selling their account, the friend in question is also "immature/selfish" for getting upset over a video game. And I would credit the friend for being more selfish than the seller depending on the situation.


Also I'll admit I'm 28, I could be younger than you but for the most part I also get old jokes on vent as most of the people in my ls are 23 and younger.

No, I got your point. It is immature not necessarily for selling the account as a stand alone act, but for letting yourself get to a point where selling the account becomes a necessity to pay the rent, etc. No mature person would let themselves get to a point where they are in such a crisis position where a stop-gap solution like selling an account for cash is their only solution.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that the friend might not be getting upset over a video game, but might in fact be getting upset because of your lack of maturity in dealing with your real life. And if you don't think that people should be able to be upset because of your lack of maturity then I would suggest calling up your parents and asking them what they think about you having that kind of opinion.

Sadly, I am older than 28... and the pain of the old jokes will continue unabated.

[Ksandra]

Telling someone that all the time you have spent together is less important than a one month delay of your problems is quite insulting in my eyes. I'd rather a close friend play less, or take a break, as opposed to being forced to abandon the reason we were friends in the first place.

1. how is selling you account taking away the time in the past that you spent together. Selling an acc, doesn't sell your memories.

2. if FF is the ONLY reason you're friends then how close is that relationship to begin with?

I take breaks from ff all the time because it gets boring, but I always keep intouch with my friends : aim/email/other games/ventrillo/ meeting irl. I can't imagine in this day and age its that hard to keep in touch with someone outside of ff.

Again too, shit is situational. If someone were to sell their acc even though they don't need the money, then I could see it. I was referring to those situations (and I know people who have had this) where a friend goes to a friend about a problem.

No mature person would let themselves get to a point where they are in such a crisis position where a stop-gap solution like selling an account for cash is their only solution.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that the friend might not be getting upset over a video game, but might in fact be getting upset because of your lack of maturity in dealing with your real life. And if you don't think that people should be able to be upset because of your lack of maturity then I would suggest calling up your parents and asking them what they think about you having that kind of opinion.

1. Again most of this is hypothetical. I admitted if I needed the cash I would sell, but I've never sold my account, that situation has never happened to me, and hopefully never will. So make sure to not attack me on a personal level.

2. you are doing WAY too much assuming making everything black and white. I have had a comfy life, my parents paid for college and bought me a car in the past, computer, whatever it took for me to succeed. But I would consider myself a terrible person if I thought everyone was able to have that situation.

I know people who have lost parents/who have been pushed out of the house/who could never afford college/who had to work when they were 16 just to help parents pay their mortgage.

They have had to struggle way more than I ever had. And I consider them some of the most mature people I know. Because of that struggle to make ends meet, since they are not as lucky as the rest of us. And they don't spend their money on anything else besides bills/food/etc.

To say someone is not mature enough to never need some extra cash EVER , is ridiculous imo. Shit happens. You can't forsee the future. And to make everyhting so black and white makes you immature in my eyes.


But maturity is all opinion in the end.



Oh and LOL don't bother about the parents comment. My parents have been trying to get me to sell my acc for years. But they don't understand the game too well, they just want me to quit, and they see nothing wrong with me making some money off of it because it means to them an extra plan ticket to visit them.

[Seraph]

1. how is selling you account taking away the time in the past that you spent together. Selling an acc, doesn't sell your memories.

2. if FF is the ONLY reason you're friends then how close is that relationship to begin with?

I take breaks from ff all the time because it gets boring, but I always keep intouch with my friends : aim/email/other games/ventrillo/ meeting irl. I can't imagine in this day and age its that hard to keep in touch with someone outside of ff.

It's not that the assumption is that nothing you did together is valid anymore, it's more about the concept of being abandoned. "Oh, you're leaving us now, after all we did?" Most times, that's not an expression said with a smile on your face. At best, it's a bittersweet moment because they are pissed you are leaving, but happy if it's helping them in some way.

My point was that most people will probably not take their friend leaving the game and selling the account with smiles and laughter. I wouldn't qualify it as lack of maturity either, it's just general human response.

Think of it outside of game terms if you have to. "Yeah, sorry, I'm moving away. It's not you, it's me. ...and I'm selling the stuff we made together to fund the trip." Who is really happy about that?

[Ramses]

Why did I click on this thread, I'll never get that wasted part of my life back. You can easily argue morality and maturity for EITHER side of this. Invoking those two points as absolute and using them as your argument is dumb. Selling your account is kind of like the abortion issue in that nobody on either side likes the act. Some people think there is never a justification while others are more sympathetic to circumstance.

[Lordender]

I don't see a problem with selling your account when your done and realize your never going to play again because its not fun anymore. When I left the game, I knew it was for good so I got something back for the time I put into FFXI.

I won't sit here and try justify myself, it doesn't help the game nor the people who still play this game but it did better my situation a little. I got a nice computer and made paying bills easier out of it.

[Seraph]

Why did I click on this thread, I'll never get that wasted part of my life back. You can easily argue morality and maturity for EITHER side of this. Invoking those two points as absolute and using them as your argument is dumb. Selling your account is kind of like the abortion issue in that nobody on either side likes the act. Some people think there is never a justification while others are more sympathetic to circumstance.

Why did you post in this thread? You'll never get that wasted part of your life back. You can easily argue morality and maturity for bitching in a thread. Invoking the other posters with your arguement is dumb. Posting QQ posts is kind of like the abortion issue in that nobody on either side gives a shit. Some people think there is never a justification while others are more likely to respond to your troll attempt.

[ringthree]

Why did I click on this thread, I'll never get that wasted part of my life back. You can easily argue morality and maturity for EITHER side of this. Invoking those two points as absolute and using them as your argument is dumb. Selling your account is kind of like the abortion issue in that nobody on either side likes the act. Some people think there is never a justification while others are more sympathetic to circumstance.

Actually, you can't, and that was my point.

Morality and maturity are on one side, selfishness and immaturity on the other. That much is plain and simple. Saying "Hey, I did it, so what? And I got some money for myself" does not make you mature...

The only vague relationship this has with abortion or any other issue like that is that it has two sides. The difference here is that there is only one defensible side. The only defense for the side that says selling accounts is ok is that you don't give a fuck about other people, and therefore feel fine selling an account.