NBA 2008-2009 Season

[Dimmauk]

I really hope not all Spurs fans are like you or the Jazz might finally be able to give up the most pathetic fans in the league title.

They are all like me, if not worse. You can put a asterisk on us?

[Headspace]

Nah, we'll just crown you.

[GRT]

be nice to the spurs fan guys, save and protect the near-extinct species

[Maruichi]

I can tell you that Spurs Fans hate the Lakers. I can tell you that Suns fans hate the Spurs. I can tell you that every Spurs fans and Mavs fans hate each other.

also this


I besides the pics of Kobe and Fisher crying, the pic of Shaq kills me. It like he is saying "Fuck you bitch I'm out of here"

I remember that series, being a laker fan i hated to see us go out in game 6 of the western conference finals, but in that same game i saw something i never thought i would see... which was somebody (Tim Duncan) not back down from anything shaq did to him. I'm talking about seeing him blocking Shaq on many occasions being blocked by Shaq two to three times on the same shot attempt never giving up... they won and they deserved it.

i guess what makes them boring for most is that all their play is sound fundamentals whether in the half court on the break, then you take in the fact that all that flashy shit doesnt happen from other team cause they are being defended ..

[Dimmauk]

I read this today, and I guess there is more people like me. I agree with everything he says.

Look at the evidence. Am I really a Kobe hater? You be the judge.
by Bill Simmons

I am a Kobe Bryant hater. At least that's what Lakers fans tell me. When Mamba exploded for a house-record 61 points in Madison Square Garden recently, they probably thought I rooted against him. (Which I did, but only because I love Bernard King, the old record-holder.) I even received a few "Can't wait to see how you put this one down!" e-mails afterward. (Which I will.) But it got me thinking: For sports purposes, what does the word "hater" even mean?

In the case of Simmons v. Bryant, it can be interpreted in one of five ways:

1. I always see my Kobe glass as half empty. I enjoy disparaging his abilities, rooting against him and reveling in his failures. When he succeeds, I look for ways to discredit him. In short, Kobe cannot win with me. I am his antifan.

(Not true. I loved watching young Kobe; his 2000-01 season remains sublime for me. When he carried a dreadful Lakers squad into the '06 playoffs, I pushed for him to win MVP. One week before the 61-point game, I wrote on an ESPN.com chat that Kobe was my clear-cut No. 2 MVP choice, behind LeBron James, and marveled at the way he has refined his offensive game; with his knees slowly fading after almost 1,000 NBA games, he added a deadly fallaway and learned to pick his spots on drives. He still gets his 30 every night, just with less wear and tear. Shrewd. Believe me, I am not an antifan.)

"Three assists and no rebounds. Talk about a team guy."

2. Kobe has become such a polarizing player and person that if you aren't rooting for him, it means you're rooting against him. Look at me and The Mag: I'm a hater, but they give him print lap dances twice a year. Two extremes.

(I don't think this is true. If anything, it's dumb to assume that either extreme reveals a personal agenda.)

3. Kobe is the best NBA player and has been for some time. If I'm not willing to admit this, then it can only mean I hate him.

(Even dumber.)

4. I don't like him personally, which affects the way I think of him professionally.

(I will admit to being slightly guilty here. He hasn't been the greatest teammate this decade, both on and off the court. It's been documented ad nauseam, even in books by people paid to coach him. When he accidentally injured Andrew Bynum's knee recently, I found it interesting that Kobe's reaction was more "Crap, there goes my title!" than "Oh, no, my teammate is hurt—I hate seeing him in pain!" I also thought he quit on the Lakers during their deciding playoff games in 2006 [against Phoenix] and 2008 [against Boston]. Those are my main issues. They have never stopped me from evaluating him fairly.

5. I hate Kobe. Like, I really hate him. If I were driving and saw him crossing the street, I would run him over.

(Hmm … that would depend on whether I was driving a stolen car and the hit-and-run couldn't be traced back to me. Just kidding. This is not true.)


Of those five hater theories, only No. 4 applies to some degree. But there's a huge difference between being perceived as a hater and actually hating someone. The hater gimmick sprung from the Internet, where bloggers and message-board posters rip people to shreds on a daily basis. It's a logical tactic: If you want to cause a splash, but you're not talented or funny and lack an interesting take, what's left? You attack. As those attacks turned more and more venomous, the most common counter to them became, "You're just a hater."

Now it's one of the most misused words in the English language. We hear it constantly. Because I've written negatively about Kobe over the years, and because I root for the Celtics, the hater jury convicted me without a trial. I can no longer write about him without hearing I'm just a hater. My opinion has been invalidated for everything Kobe. Any Lakers fans familiar with my column probably saw this topic, winced, said to themselves, He's hating on Kobe again, then read it anyway—even though I'm not a Kobe hater, and do not I hate him.

Here's what I don't understand: Only final scores are black and white in sports. There are shades to everything else. That's what appeals to us. In Philly right now, they don't know what to make of Donovan McNabb's career. Is he underrated? Overrated? A winner? A leader? Handicapped by a lack of talent? In need of a fresh start? Or is everybody picking nits because it's freezing cold and the Eagles haven't won in a million years? There isn't a right answer. And so Philly fans argue and argue about him, but really, it's kind of fun. That's why we like sports in the first place. We like arguing about this stuff. What the hell else would we do?

Kobe's 61-point game represented the best and worst in basketball.

That's how I feel about Kobe.

I like watching him and arguing about him. I like being bothered and thrilled by him. And I really like when he plays like Michael J. Fox instead of The Wolf. See, I was weaned on the Bird era in Boston: the joys of making the extra pass, not caring about stats. Kobe's 61-point game represented the best and worst of basketball to me. His shotmaking was transcendent: a steady onslaught of jumpers, spin moves and fallaways made in his typically icy style, as efficient an outburst as you'll ever see. On the other hand, his teammates stood around and watched him like movie extras. In 37 minutes, Kobe took 31 shots and another 20 free throws. He finished with three assists and no boards. He may as well have been playing by himself on one of those Pop-A-Shot machines.

A friend of mine, a lifelong Knicks season ticket-holder since the Bradley era, e-mailed me afterward: "That was the worst night maybe of my life in the Garden. How horrible it must be to play with Kobe. He was signaling constantly to his teammates to get him the ball. THREE ASSISTS AND NO REBOUNDS. Talk about a team guy." Another New York buddy was so distraught that Bernard's 60-point Garden record fell so ignominiously—with Kobe's padding his stats against a reprehensibly bad defense as a shocking number of fans chanted "MVP!"—that he e-mailed me the next day: "I literally didn't sleep last night." A third friend was there and swore that Kobe eyeballed Trevor Ariza after Trev made the mistake of swishing a 24-footer in the fourth. And yet, the national reaction seemed to be, "Wow! Kobe scores 61! He's unbelievable!" Spike Lee even called it "genius." (Move over, Einstein and Mozart.)

Really, it was the defining Kobe game. He elicited every reaction possible from lovers, haters and everyone in between. When LeBron arrived in New York two days later and notched his amazing 52/9/11, he didn't break Kobe's new record but definitely cheapened it. LeBron's 52 came in the flow of the offense. When the Knicks doubled him, he found the open man. When they singled him, he scored. He dominated every facet of the game. It was a complete performance, basketball at its finest, everything we ever wanted from King James. And it happened 48 hours after Kobe's big game … in the same building. Crazy.

I've been comparing those two games ever since. Never has basketball seemed more simple to me: I would rather watch a 52/9/11 than a 61/0/3. I would. It's really that simple. It's a matter of preference. So don't call me a Kobe hater, call me a basketball lover.

And if Kobe ever put up a 52/9/11, yes, I would love him, too.

[Stee]

Don't you find it odd how you focus so much energy on hating Kobe? I mean you attack him when someones talking about, attack him when nobody mentions his name in a whole page and now your trying to find posts that hate on him. Some would say your obsessed with the guy.

[Dimmauk]

Don't you find it odd how you focus so much energy on hating Kobe? I mean you attack him when someones talking about, attack him when nobody mentions his name in a whole page and now your trying to find posts that hate on him. Some would say your obsessed with the guy.

I read this article on my phone at first. It was on SI.com. I don't search the internets looking for fellow Kobe haters.

Some would say you are obsessed with me. You are basically the only one trolling me. I have only shit talked Kobe and the Lakers(a little), while you follow my posts trolling only me. People shit talk the Spurs, but I don't attack them, I attack their reasons for not liking the Spurs.

[Stee]

So your saying as a troll you feel you are being harassed because I discredit anything you say? interesting.

If for a moment I believed you wanted to actually debate about something without it devolving into a omgrapist comment I would have no problem with it.

But hell I'll give you a real response this time.

First of all the guys a diehard celtic fan so of course he hates Kobe.

Secondly if Kobe is a ball hog with the amount of possessions he had that day then what the hell does that make Lebron who took more shot attempts then Kobe. Like I also said before, you can't compare the stats of a guy against another when the first guy didn't even know it was a competition. With the way the Knicks were playing him he could have put this competition out of reach, that is if he decided to just completely ignore Gasol as a teammate.

Truth is all you kobe haters can hate on him all you want but when the day comes where he retires your going to miss hating on him, because your most likely never going to see a player like him again. Lebron doesn't have the footwork, the shot (for now) or the deceptive moves that made Jordan and Kobe great and he's more of a marketing player then a guy who actually wants to win.

I'm more of a Laker fan then a Kobe fan but I know that this franchise is lucky as hell to have a player like Kobe. So find your little hate posts about Kobe because he sure as hell doesn't care what you think.

[Deejay]

Kobe and Jordan are not on the same level though.

Lebron is closer to Jordan than Kobe is. Stop comparing the two like they're the same person.

And how the hell can you say that Lebron isn't a guy who wants to win when he single handedly willed his team to the finals. He's not like Kobe who gives up on his teammates when the going gets tough. To be honest Stee, people wouldn't argue with you about the Lakers if you didn't say so much stupid shit. Same goes for Dimmauk too.

[Roranora]

Uh, LeBron and Kobe are both studs, (don't get me involved in the debate preferring one over the other) but Kobe's game more closely parallels Jordan's game than does LeBron's.

[Deejay]

The only thing that Kobe has close to Jordan is shot selection.

The similarities end there.

LeBron can run the fast break just as well as Jordan. Kobe doesn't. Lebron/Jordan set up shots for their teammates. Kobe doesn't. Lebron/Jordan made their living with the mid-range jumper and slashing to the basket. Kobe has range for days.

Just because Kobe can shoot a fadeaway just as well as Jordan doesn't mean that their games are the same.

[recuperi]

That's really hard to argue, and that Kobe vs. LeBron is hard to compare too. LeBron seems like he plays more of a power game, and Kobe more of a finesse. These days it seems more relevant comparing James to KG, even though that isn't much of a comparison (opinion).

[Akiyama]

Agreed. Heck, I think Anyone vs Jordan should just be moot right now. :/ I'm not saying that one day, either Kobe or LeBron won't match up to Jordan, but as it stands currently, I don't think either are near the same level. If Jordan was at Level 10, Kobe and LeBron would probably be at 6 or 7.. depending on who you are a fan of. That's my opinion.

[Bearsan]

Agreed. Heck, I think Anyone vs Jordan should just be moot right now. :/ I'm not saying that one day, either Kobe or LeBron won't match up to Jordan, but as it stands currently, I don't think either are near the same level. If Jordan was at Level 10, Kobe and LeBron would probably be at 6 or 7.. depending on who you are a fan of. That's my opinion.

6 or 7? That scale must go from -50 to 10.

[Akiyama]

6 or 7? That scale must go from -50 to 10.

Where would you put them then? LeBron has zero championships so far, and while Kobe has three, he got them with one of the most dominant big men in the game at the time, and has yet to get another.

MJ left the NBA for a period of time to play baseball (lol), came back, and went back to winning championships. Are you saying I have LeBron and Kobe too high? Or too low? o.o

[recuperi]

too low it sounds like

It's be hard to ever place any current players anywhere on an all-time list unless they're just about to end their careers.

And with the championships thing: the sole reason Karl Malone isn't anywhere on the list of top players of all time is because they didn't win anything when they had their chances. I just feel like judging someone primarily on the rings the win is like trying to take circumstance out of the picture. Those measures only work when they all have the same supporting cast

Having said that, I don't see a Jordan in the league right now

[Stee]

Kobe and Jordan are not on the same level though.

Lebron is closer to Jordan than Kobe is. Stop comparing the two like they're the same person.

And how the hell can you say that Lebron isn't a guy who wants to win when he single handedly willed his team to the finals. He's not like Kobe who gives up on his teammates when the going gets tough. To be honest Stee, people wouldn't argue with you about the Lakers if you didn't say so much stupid shit. Same goes for Dimmauk too.

There no statement stupider or shittier then saying Jordan is more like Lebron then Kobe.
First of all Lebron isn't even physically in the same class as Jordan or Kobe while Jordan and Kobe's height size is about the same.

Kobe has also copied a good amount of Jordan's moves and even mannerisms.

Attitude wise, Jordan and Kobe are also very similar. They are both compete on a high level and are hard on their teammates for not playing to their level of intensity (Jordan punching one of his teammates in practice).

The clutch factor is both a Jordan, Kobe trait, I don't think this needs a explanation.

Simply put Lebron is a power player while Jordan and Kobe are more finesse and deceptive players.

You want to call Lebron a team player, fine. However lets just put the truth out there, up until probably this season he has been afraid of the big shot. Almost every close game he would defer the ball to a teammate when he clearly knew he was the best option for the team at that moment.

Lebron has also had better teammates then Kobe up until last year. When you have the likes of Kwame Brown/Chris Mihm and Smush Parker as starters I doubt you would be passing the ball much either.

Anyway its not like I hate Lebron, I like him as a player but the way he conducts interviews or handles the limelight its pretty obvious that his priorities are in creating a bigger market value for himself. Yeah he wants to win a championship but I can almost guarantee you its more about the Lebron brand then the competition.

[Stee]

And btw, I'm not trying to say Jordan = Kobe or anything all I'm saying is they are the same TYPE of players. At least more so then Lebron and Jordan.

And now I'm going to sleep, so if you want to argue with me you'll have to wait.

[Bearsan]

Where would you put them then? LeBron has zero championships so far, and while Kobe has three, he got them with one of the most dominant big men in the game at the time, and has yet to get another.

MJ left the NBA for a period of time to play baseball (lol), came back, and went back to winning championships. Are you saying I have LeBron and Kobe too high? Or too low? o.o

I'm just saying that if Kobe is a 6-7, then that scale has to go way down to make room for people like Mark Madsen.

[Akiyama]

too low it sounds like

It's be hard to ever place any current players anywhere on an all-time list unless they're just about to end their careers.

And with the championships thing: the sole reason Karl Malone isn't anywhere on the list of top players of all time is because they didn't win anything when they had their chances. I just feel like judging someone primarily on the rings the win is like trying to take circumstance out of the picture. Those measures only work when they all have the same supporting cast

Having said that, I don't see a Jordan in the league right now

I suppose it may be too low, but I dunno. I think Jordan's just that much better throughout the prime of his career.

Also, while I agree with the Championship comparison, and it being a bad thing... it's still there, it's still discussed, and seeing as how the NBA is a team game and all, it's still important. Just like the NFL, and how Super Bowl rings flesh out the HoF credentials more, it's the same with the NBA.

I know what you mean with the Mailman and all. He had a fantastic career, but like many other great players in the NBA during the Jordan Era as I like to call it, he was just unlucky to play in the time that he did. I know other teams won championships while Jordan played, but him and the Bulls won more of them. Those Bulls teams were just so damn good, it was almost unfair at times.

So basically, I was just trying to say that LeBron shouldn't be compared to Jordan because of some reasons Stee listed, and also because he's way too damn young for that. I don't think Kobe should be compared to Jordan because as it stands right now, without Shaq, he's still Chamiponshipless. Do I think he'll get one eventually? Oh, most definitely. Hell, he could win won this year. I just don't think he should be compared to Jordan just yet. :/

I'm just saying that if Kobe is a 6-7, then that scale has to go way down to make room for people like Mark Madsen.

Haha. I getcha. Nah.. I'd say on a 1-10 scale where there tons and tons of 1-5s, while LeBron and Kobe are in the upper portion of the 7-8 area I guess, so yeah. Higher than 6. D: Bah. Forget I said anything about a scale.

Jordan >>>> Kobe/LeBron.
There.