NBA 2008-2009 Season

[recuperi]

Lebron has also had better teammates then Kobe up until last year. When you have the likes of Kwame Brown/Chris Mihm and Smush Parker as starters I doubt you would be passing the ball much either.

Anyway its not like I hate Lebron, I like him as a player but the way he conducts interviews or handles the limelight its pretty obvious that his priorities are in creating a bigger market value for himself. Yeah he wants to win a championship but I can almost guarantee you its more about the Lebron brand then the competition.

I agreed with the post mostly up to this point. What better teammates has LeBron had? Ilgauskas? Kobe had Shaq, Horry, Fisher, and so on. It's like you discount the teams from the years they went deep into the playoffs (until last year) when you say that. That's just manipulating data to justify a point that no person watching the NBA since 2000 would agree with

And with the thing about LeBron creating a bigger market for himself: which player doesn't aim to do this? KG persisted in Minnesota to make a decent market for himself when he became eligible, and look where it got him this past season. I don't know if that's what LeBron's aim has been, but I won't draw conclusions based on how he handles the public. Every player aims at championships and contracts. It all falls in the same level of the the hierarchy of needs. I can't think of a good way to end this paragraph





and I just realized I won't be awake to counter-argue your counter-argument in the morning ;x

[Stee]

Bleh I was right in the middle of shutting my computer down too lol.

My bad if I didn't mention between post Shaq and pre Gasol era.

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow! peace

[Akiyama]

Well, his statement still stands. You can't just selectively edit out a certain period of time if we are comparing both LeBron and Kobe. LeBron hasn't exactly had a great supporting cast around him either.

[Deejay]

First of all Lebron isn't even physically in the same class as Jordan or Kobe while Jordan and Kobe's height size is about the same.

Kobe has also copied a good amount of Jordan's moves and even mannerisms.

So the fuck what. Kobe stole a couple of his moves, it doesn't mean that they play the same. And let's be honest here, who's moves HASN'T kobe stolen? He admits that he copies everyone's game, just because he can make a couple jordanesqe shots doesn't mean that they're the same player.

Attitude wise, Jordan and Kobe are also very similar. They are both compete on a high level and are hard on their teammates for not playing to their level of intensity (Jordan punching one of his teammates in practice).

Jordan inspired his teammates just as much as he broke them down. Ask every one of the people who have played with Jordan and they'll all tell you that he made them a better player.

To prove my point even further, people have been arguing for YEARS that Pippen wouldn't be the player that he is if it weren't for Jordan. How many people can even begin to say that about Kobe and one of his teammates? All he did was run Shaq out of town when he wasn't getting enough of the spot light. Typical 'me first' not 'team first' attitude.

Jordan gets the most out of his teammates, Kobe just bitches at his when things don't go his way. They're not similar at all in that regard whereas Lebron elevates his teams and teammates the same way jordan did. Look at Kobe's roster and compare it to Lebron's, now explain to me; how the hell do their teams have the same exact records?

The clutch factor is both a Jordan, Kobe trait, I don't think this needs a explanation.

1. Jordan has never given up on his team. Kobe has.
2. "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." - Michael Jordan
3. Lebron is 24 years old. He'd be a 2 year pro if he went to college. I'm sorry that he hasn't made that many fadeaway buzzer beaters in OT yet.
4. You're also acting like Lebron has never come up big when his team needed him most. Game 6 of the eastern conference finals ring a bell? Lebron put up 49 and put his shitty ass team in the finals. Game 6 of the NBA Finals last year? Kobe stops shooting and lets his team get trounced by 40.
5.Clutch isn't just a matter of hitting the game winning shot. It's producing when the team needs you most. Sure Lebron hasn't had his defining 'snap shot' yet, but it will happen in due time. You have to remember, MJ didn't win his first championship until he was 28-29, so it's silly to assume that Lebron should doing the same things so early into his career.

Simply put Lebron is a power player while Jordan and Kobe are more finesse and deceptive players.

So what? Like I said, the only thing that makes Kobe a similar player to Jordan is his shot selection. That doesn't mean that entire facet of their game is similar, it just means that they can hit some of the same shots.

Jordan was never a 3 point shooter. Matter of fact, he was fucking horrible from beyond the arc. Kobe shoots the 3 like nobody's business. Jordan built his game off of power moves and slashes to the basket. Lebron plays with the same exact style. He overpowers defenders and wills his way to the hoop, much like Jordan did in his prime. However, I would say the closest player to Jordan right now is Dwyane Wade, although he rarely gets the credit he deserves but that's a whole different argument.

Lebron has also had better teammates then Kobe up until last year. When you have the likes of Kwame Brown/Chris Mihm and Smush Parker as starters I doubt you would be passing the ball much either.

Give me a fucking break. Smush hasn't played for the Lakers since 06'. Lebron didn't complain and not pass when his teammates sucked, he just put them on his back and took them to the god damn finals. Don't give me that bullshit teammate argument when you know that Kobe has twice the supporting cast right now and the teams have identical records.

Yeah he wants to win a championship but I can almost guarantee you its more about the Lebron brand then the competition.

What do you mean creating a brand? OOOOOOOOH, you mean like this:

Spoiler: show

http://cf.geocities.com/th18rry/logojordan.jpg

, the most fucking recognizable brand on the planet?!?!

And this, or this, or perhaps even this!?
If anything, that retarded statement just makes Lebron that much more similar to MJ....

[Arvin]

Two different types of players, two different styles of games. One is also a bit older and more experienced than the other. If you are talking about saying who is better and more accomplished right NOW? Kobe, by a landslide. He's won championships, he's done more and he has proved he is on the track to becoming the 'next MJ'. Lebron? He's young as hell and has not had the best chance to show he can make things happen. Taking a team to the playoffs and winning the championships aren't the same thing, lol. Both players have had terrible teammates and good teammates at different seasons and in the end? Kobe is better, simply because he has accomplished something. Give Lebron 5 more years to age and THEN compare the two, jesus christ.

[Dimmauk]

Jordan was like Kobe + Lebron. Like the article I posted mentioned(if anyone read it), Kobe is shooting more fadaways and outside shots due to knee issues, like Jordan had. Kobe has played alot of games and minutes.

[MrW]

I see one glaring difference between Kobe/Lebron and Jordan. Yes, both of these guys can take over a game as we have seen countless times. But what separates Jordan from those two is the fact that he consistently (throughout his career) makes his teammates better. As far as I've seen (opinion of course) Lebron and Kobe have not been able to do that so far.

Lamar is a decent player by himself, Bynum is so so, Vujabitch/Walton fucking blow and Fisher has always played consistently. Gasol is pretty good and Ariza is starting to come into his own. Something he probably would've done without Kobe anyway. Lebron hasn't made any of his teammates better either. Yes he finds them for open shots but the progress they've made, in my opinion is not a direct result of Lebron making them better.

Jordan has. Kerr, Pippen, Kukoc and even Longley. Those guys looked pretty good with Jordan around them. Their game changed when they played with Jordan. It seemed to me that they did things they never would've done if Jordan weren't playing on the same team.

(I could very well be wrong seeing as how I don't watch that much pro ball anymore. But I did watch religiously up until a few years ago.)

[Naafeih]

One of the points Simmons' always makes is that the legs on a jump shooter always start to give out on them after age 30. (Notable exceptions: Reggie Miller and for the time being a rejuvenated Ray Allen.) Kobe has already logged 1,000 games because of coming in from high school and all the playoff runs.

And like you said, he is starting to shoot a lot of those fadeaways. However, Jordan also developed a low post game to go along with that. He used to post up Starks like 18 feet from the basket and score at will. (Then again, who didn't.) You don't really see Kobe doing a lot of that. In the 61 point game, they were basically all long jump shots.

How long can he keep that up before his legs break down?

[Deejay]

Taking jump shots doesn't cause much wear and tear. Kobe could do that until he's 45.

[Naafeih]

It's not the jump shots that's wearing on you. It's playing 100 games a season. I guess what I meant is that a shooter with bad knees isn't getting the same push from his legs as when he was younger. That's what causes their shooting percentages to go down.

[MrW]

I think in Kobe's case that it comes from not getting open looks as easily. He obviously will lose a step as he gets older. Making it that much harder to get that separation/extra shooting space on his jumper. I agree with Dee, you can shoot jumpers forever. Getting to the basket/etc. will be the problem.

[Stee]

To Recruperi and Akiyama: Deejay was arguing that Lebron brought a team "on his own" to the finals in 2007. The years that Kobe didn't have another superstar on his team was post shaq era.

To Deejay: Do you think that the popularity of that brand was created because of Jordan's competitiveness which led to his accomplishments or was it because he went around like Lebron flirting with other teams and leading reporters on before his contract even expires in 2 years.

Or how about we rewind time back a decade and ask Jordan if he would rather have a championship or his brand. I'm pretty damn sure he would want the championship.

Maybe in the next few years Lebron will be more about winning a championship for the sake of winning a championship then marketing himself but it's pretty clear where his priorities are right now.

And I'm not saying Lebron isn't capable of making clutch shots but I doubt he will be able to do it on a consistent basis as Jordan and Kobe has. Kobe's first year in the NBA, nobody on the Lakers wanted to take the game winning shot so he said he wanted it. He shot up two airballs and they lost the game. Jordan made "The shot" what, 4 or 5 years into his career in the NBA? I'm sure you can find more when he first entered the NBA.

I doubt you just grow clutchness to the point you can do it on a consistent basis, its confidence to the point where even if you miss the shot you will have all the confidence on the next game winner. Lebron, from what I have seen does not have that.



To Naafeih: Very true, but I think Kobe knows that, I've been watching him post up a lot more. Yesterday vs the thunder everytime down the court he was posting up, most of his points came from that anyway.

[Dimmauk]

Did anyone see that full court bounce pass Iverson had the other day?

[recuperi]

doubt anyone here cares much about the Knicks, but damn Nate Robinson is playing out of his mind today. Why didn't they have him starting earlier?

[octopus]

doubt anyone here cares much about the Knicks, but damn Nate Robinson is playing out of his mind today. Why didn't they have him starting earlier?

To be fair, they're playing a team that's worse than they are ;o

[Akiyama]

KNICKS ARE A PLAYOFF TEAM

You heard it here first, lulz. You know what would be HYSTERICAL? If the Suns don't make the playoffs, and the Knicks do. I'd laugh my ass off.

[Deejay]

Quit hating on my Knicks. Nate Robinson is the best Inch for Inch player in the universe!

[MrW]

For real. Stop making fun of my Knicks! Robinson is out of control. Speaking of out of control... David Lee is a fucking beast this season. I hope they make the playoffs this year because I need more shit talking material. I can't keep bringing up Knicks/Heat series for much longer :/

[Naafeih]

Enjoy them while you can. Only way they can get resigned is if they get Cury off the books for next year. And any trade is probably going to have to include at least one of them.

Edit: Or Jeffries. Those are the only contracts through 2011. (Besides Gallinari and Chandler but they're not going anywhere.)

[Deejay]

Curry is most definitely gone. I think the Knicks can afford to keep Robinson, but Lee is probably going to demand big bucks... which sucks, because I liked the guy.