Pro-Embryonic Stem Cell Research while against abortion?

[0ni0n]

I am really bothered by the fact that many pro-life people consider abortion a choice made as casually as picking what's for dinner. It's not, and many who made that decision had no other alternative. Plus, making abortion will only lead to some backalley shady abortions that will subsequently result in a potential loss of human lives.

[Dimmauk]

I pro-Stem cell, and I'm also Pro-Death. I don't get how someone can be Pro-Choice and Anti-Death Penalty, and visa versa.

[Rhinox]

I pro-Stem cell, and I'm also Pro-Death. I don't get how someone can be Pro-Choice and Anti-Death Penalty, and visa versa.

I lol'd

[Dimmauk]

I lol'd

Well its true, I'm Pro-Choice, and Pro-Death Penalty.

[Saphirea]

Isn't this the official position of the catholic church as well?

No, it's not. Catholics believe in using adult stem cells. Which have proven to provide the exact same results as using embryonic stem cells.

[Tyche]

I pro-Stem cell, and I'm also Pro-Death. I don't get how someone can be Pro-Choice and Anti-Death Penalty, and visa versa.

There's a fundamental difference between thinking that someone who raped and killed 15 year olds should be put to death and an abortion.

@Onion - There are extenuating circumstances that justify an abortion, and I understand that. Child's health, mother's health, possibly even money situations and/or lack of insurance (although this is really a poor argument, couple's who are looking to adopt will pay for all of your medical expenses). So I guess to answer Rhinox's question, I don't see a reason to kill off a healthy baby in a healthy mother who has options open (and there's almost always options that will support a safe and healthy pregnancy). If you have the mindset that "I just don't want this damn thing" or "I'm not ready", sorry, I'm not buying that.

[0ni0n]

There's a fundamental difference between thinking that someone who raped and killed 15 year olds should be put to death and an abortion.

@Onion - There are extenuating circumstances that justify an abortion, and I understand that. Child's health, mother's health, possibly even money situations and/or lack of insurance (although this is really a poor argument, couple's who are looking to adopt will pay for all of your medical expenses). So I guess to answer Rhinox's question, I don't see a reason to kill off a healthy baby in a healthy mother who has options open (and there's almost always options that will support a safe and healthy pregnancy). If you have the mindset that "I just don't want this damn thing" or "I'm not ready", sorry, I'm not buying that.

I rather have it open as a legal option and let women execute their own prudence than say, leaving them with no alternative. As I said, it's not a decision made lightly, and abortion being a traumatic experience in itself, I would give most women the benefits of the doubt and more importantly, the freedom of choice as to what they do with/to their bodily flesh. That being said, I do not, however, support late term abortion.

[Eaglestrike]

What's funnier is that I've said from the very beginning that i was merely poking fun at his choice of words yet you're to dense to realized when something goes over your head and read into somthing that is really not there and make something out of nothing.

Actually, and I wanted to edit this into my last post, I was getting on YOU for reading too much into it, and you were getting on me for reading too much into it about you reading too much into Tyche's post. Nothing went over my head and I'm not being dense, lol. You do sound quite defensive though, heh.

As I said earlier, I have a non-religious reason. And while someone did say it's not an "easy decision" for women to make and I agree for a number of women it isn't, there are also a number of women that do it whenever necessary and/or would do it whenever. Like I said I'm open to exceptions. If it's hurting the mother, if it's the product of a rape, etc. But if the cause of the pregnancy is because you didn't feel like using proper birth control...deal with it. You need to start taking responsibility, even if all you do is get fat and give it away.

[Tristam]

No, it's not. Catholics believe in using adult stem cells. Which have proven to provide the exact same results as using embryonic stem cells.

not quite, the process for making stem cells from adult fibroblasts involves using genes that are known to cause cancer, there's no way these could be used in any therapies right now and it would take some more major breakthroughs before IPS cells were ever used in a human. Furthermore, all of the knowledge used to create these IPS cells and characterize them as stem cells was generated from years of studying ES cells.

[Dimmauk]

There's a fundamental difference between thinking that someone who raped and killed 15 year olds should be put to death and an abortion.

@Onion - There are extenuating circumstances that justify an abortion, and I understand that. Child's health, mother's health, possibly even money situations and/or lack of insurance (although this is really a poor argument, couple's who are looking to adopt will pay for all of your medical expenses). So I guess to answer Rhinox's question, I don't see a reason to kill off a healthy baby in a healthy mother who has options open (and there's almost always options that will support a safe and healthy pregnancy). If you have the mindset that "I just don't want this damn thing" or "I'm not ready", sorry, I'm not buying that.

What if that person was really innocent?

[Saphirea]

not quite, the process for making stem cells from adult fibroblasts involves using genes that are known to cause cancer, there's no way these could be used in any therapies right now and it would take some more major breakthroughs before IPS cells were ever used in a human. Furthermore, all of the knowledge used to create these IPS cells and characterize them as stem cells was generated from years of studying ES cells.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/jul/06072709.html

According to this priest who has a doctorate from Yale and post doctorate from Harvard

Fr. Pacholczyk also noted that the much touted panacea from embryonic stem-cell research is a great myth in itself, and a dangerous one. While media and politicians have been insisting that only stem-cells from destroyed embryos can cure the diseases of over 100 million patients, Fr. Pacholczyk pointed out that not one human being or animal has been cured with such research. In fact, since embryonic stem-cells are designed to work in an embryonic environment, their rapid cellular growth have produced tumors called teratoma, and led to death in test subjects.

Unlike embryonic stem cells, stem cells derived from adult tissues and pregnancy matter have shown impressive results without carrying any ethical dilemma or risk of tumors and death to patients. Fr. Pacholczyk listed dozens of diseases currently treatable using these stem cells, including sickle-cell anemia, leukemia, spinal cord injury, and heart disease.

[Tyche]

@Dimmauk

You're going to get into a whole different argument about what evidence would constitute a death penalty ruling, something I'm really not going to delve into so this isn't derailed.

[Rhinox]

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/jul/06072709.html

According to this priest who has a doctorate from Yale and post doctorate from Harvard

I'm sure this website isn't biased in anyway. nor the scientist in question.

[Saphirea]

Wait so since he's a Catholic priest, you have to discredit him even though he has a doctorate from Yale and post doctorate work from Harvard.
The topic was on Stem Cell research so I provided links to a point of view that would support stem cell research not based on using embryos.

[Lampoon]

I wonder if stem cell research can this be paralleled to sending thousands of soldiers to die to save millions?

[0ni0n]

I'm sure this website isn't biased in anyway. nor the scientist in question.

Acutally, i just did some research on this guy, and he seems legitimate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Pacholczyk

Also, I found out that Fr. Pacholczyk's right that direct injection of embryonic stemcell will cause a type of tumor called teratoma and that adult stemcell research seems to hold more promise in treating curently uncurable diseases. However, that's not to say that embryonic steamcell will have no other benefits since research in this area is still elementary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell

[Lampoon]

Our obssesion with living forever is fucking with natural balance of things.

[Dimmauk]

@Dimmauk

You're going to get into a whole different argument about what evidence would constitute a death penalty ruling, something I'm really not going to delve into so this isn't derailed.

Cool sounds good.

I can understand using embryos for testing that were going to be discarded. But farming/growing them just for research is what I think most people have issues with?

[0ni0n]

Our obssesion with living forever is fucking with natural balance of things.

but how do you know this is not a natural course of evolution? We can argue that our intelligence has evolved to the sufficient extent that we can repair our own organs and extend our longevity.

[Tristam]

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/jul/06072709.html

According to this priest who has a doctorate from Yale and post doctorate from Harvard

Not quite sure why you think a priest trumps primary literature, but here ya go:

The technical challenges that we need
to overcome to be able to use iPS cells
for therapy include: the use of retroviral
vectors to introduce reprogramming factors
into cells; the need to use a selection
marker (either inserted into the starting
cell by homologous recombination or
included as part of the vector) to identify
reprogrammed cells; the use of the oncogene
MYC to achieve reprogramming; and
the integration of retroviral vectors into the
genome. These manipulations genetically
modify the starting cells, and genetically
modified cells face significant regulatory
hurdles for therapeutic applications

from: http://www.nature.com/nrm/journal/v9/n9/pdf/nrm2466.pdf

Also, the technology developed to create IPS cell lines was based on work done on ES cell lines. ES cell line research is not going away due to IPS lines. The teratomas you pointed out are a challenge to be overcome working with all types of stem cell lines, but that dosen't mean we should give up. Now some groups have reported that they've induced IPS cell ines without cancer-causing genes, but still there's a looooong way to go. Also your entire position depends on the presumption that catholics somehow can define personhood.