Pro-Embryonic Stem Cell Research while against abortion?

[Vandalhart]

You can be pro-choice and anti-abortion.

Pro-Choice just means they you agree that woman have the right to choose.

My only stance is that abortion should never be a form of birth control. In order for that to be the case people need to be educated on how to prevent pregnancy and have both parties take responsibility for it.

[Lampoon]

but how do you know this is not a natural course of evolution? We can argue that our intelligence has evolved to the sufficient extent that we can repair our own organs and extend our longevity.

I agree with your point. My arguement was more sarcastic than an opinion.

[Dimmauk]

You can be pro-choice and anti-abortion.

Pro-Choice just means they you agree that woman have the right to choose.

My only stance is that abortion should never be a form of birth control. In order for that to be the case people need to be educated on how to prevent pregnancy and have both parties take responsibility for it.

I guess people think that it is an easy procedure to get do, like getting a flu shot or something. Some women get pregnant just to get an abortion cause it feels awesome.

[Beckwin]

Why do pro-life people have to be bible-beating Christians?

because a psychological problem is the only defense for that position.

[Tristam]

Wait so since he's a Catholic priest, you have to discredit him even though he has a doctorate from Yale and post doctorate work from Harvard.
The topic was on Stem Cell research so I provided links to a point of view that would support stem cell research not based on using embryos.

No, the problem is you're using an appeal to authority to make a scientific argument from someone who has a moral conflict of interest. The issues he talks about are classic science stoppers, just because ES cells have not been successfully used to treat a disease doesn't mean you should stop working with them, the field is very young and full of promise, why should we quit because of your or his concept of personhood?

Also the stem cells he talks about which have been used to cure diseases (like bone marrow transplants for leukemia) are NOT pluripotent stem cells and can only be used to differentiate into certain cell types. He may have an impressive CV, but your priest is being intellectually dishonest.

[Meian]

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/jul/06072709.html

According to this priest who has a doctorate from Yale and post doctorate from Harvard

Wow. If this is true then why not concentrate more on this so it will make everyone happy over the other?

[fantasticdan]

but how do you know this is not a natural course of evolution? We can argue that our intelligence has evolved to the sufficient extent that we can repair our own organs and extend our longevity.

That has nothing to do with evolution, people aren't evolving. Modern scientists/doctors/etc. aren't more intelligent or evolved, they're just starting from a higher point on the foundation of knowledge that people continue to build upon. If anything, medical advances impede evolution, since they prevent natural selection.

[Meian]

That has nothing to do with evolution, people aren't evolving. Modern scientists/doctors/etc. aren't more intelligent or evolved, they're just starting from a higher point on the foundation of knowledge that people continue to build upon. If anything, medical advances impede evolution, since they prevent natural selection.

Not sure about preventing "natural selection." We are surviving better than other animals because of these abilities and technology we are able to do and create. Otherwise, we would've been wiped out by now if we weren't.

May agree with you in terms of impeding evolution in some sense or at least slowing it down.

[Vandalhart]

I guess people think that it is an easy procedure to get do, like getting a flu shot or something. Some women get pregnant just to get an abortion cause it feels awesome.

I doubt very much it's a pleasant feeling at all.
I haven't had any experience on the topic myself, I do have the information I learned at my churches youth group but I have discarded that a long time ago because it probably wasn't factual.

Edit: I decided to look it up to be a little more informed.
I see that I was only familiar with the suction-aspiration method. I can see the other ones later on being much harder on a person.

[Lampoon]

Not sure about preventing "natural selection." We are surviving better than other animals because of these abilities and technology we are able to do and create. Otherwise, we would've been wiped out by now if we weren't.

May agree with you in terms of impeding evolution in some sense or at least slowing it down.

There's a certain disbalance between mental and physical development in our time. We are too dependant on our "abilities and technology" to point of it being a crutch we can't live without. How many people here can survive if the electricity were to be cut off?

[zoobernut]

The human brain and our technology is our evolution. Just like how other animals change to adapt to their environment and we change our environment to suit our needs, we evolve ourselves forcefully by emerging technologies.

Also as a result of this forced evolution we are changing in a sense that the physically weaker of the species is perpetuating as strength and resilience are no longer required traits for survival.

[Lampoon]

Hence more and more deseases being identified.

[Dimmauk]

I doubt very much it's a pleasant feeling at all.
I haven't had any experience on the topic myself, I do have the information I learned at my churches youth group but I have discarded that a long time ago because it probably wasn't factual.

Edit: I decided to look it up to be a little more informed.
I see that I was only familiar with the suction-aspiration method. I can see the other ones later on being much harder on a person.

Its more psycological scarring, then a physically painful event. When my wife had a miscarriage, they had to do a D & C and even that was a little painful.

[Shinryusan]

Not quite sure why you think a priest trumps primary literature, but here ya go:

The technical challenges that we need
to overcome to be able to use iPS cells
for therapy include: the use of retroviral
vectors to introduce reprogramming factors
into cells; the need to use a selection
marker (either inserted into the starting
cell by homologous recombination or
included as part of the vector) to identify
reprogrammed cells; the use of the oncogene
MYC to achieve reprogramming; and
the integration of retroviral vectors into the
genome. These manipulations genetically
modify the starting cells, and genetically
modified cells face significant regulatory
hurdles for therapeutic applications

from: http://www.nature.com/nrm/journal/v9/n9/pdf/nrm2466.pdf

Just wanted to point out how Tristam has won this thread hardcore like 3 times already, and no-one has said anything. Quoting Nature is possibly the coolest way to own someone in existence.

[fantasticdan]

Not sure about preventing "natural selection." We are surviving better than other animals because of these abilities and technology we are able to do and create. Otherwise, we would've been wiped out by now if we weren't.

May agree with you in terms of impeding evolution in some sense or at least slowing it down.

I am talking about people that would have died from hereditary diseases, or diseases that others could be immune to. Cystic fibrosis for example, is a hereditary disease, and decades ago, most afflicted would die at or before early childhood. Now, due to advances in treatment, the average life expectancy for someone with CF is somewhere around 35-40 years. Rather than naturally dying from the disorder they were born with, they live long enough to have kids and pass the gene on(thou it is recessive.).

And nothing can slow human evolution down, because it isn't moving forward, unless you're talking about science/technology.

[Kuya]

It would be better if people said pro or anti abortion because pro life or anti choice are merely political labels used to devalue one side or the other. Assuming you guys aren't trying to do the latter.

[Deftscythe]

It would be better if people said pro or anti abortion because pro life or anti choice are merely political labels used to devalue one side or the other. Assuming you guys aren't trying to do the latter.

For some reason people don't want to be seen as pro-abortion either.

[Shinryusan]

And nothing can slow human evolution down, because it isn't moving forward, unless you're talking about science/technology.

Just as an aside, this is not actually true. As long as we combine genetic material and accumulate mutations, evolution will inevitably take place. It is true, however, that the selection mechanism has drastically changed. No longer are mutations that allow us to survive puma attacks selected for, it's genetic factors that allow for reproductive success in our society, i.e. intelligence, beauty, ambition, whatever it is that makes Jon and Kate have eight, etc.

In fact, now that I think about it, I'd argue that genes responsible for religious belief (IF they exist, which is not entirely suppported yet) are being selected for quite heavily, as being a religious person in many cases predelicts you towards having more children, directly increasing your fitness.

[zoobernut]

I would argue that because of our advancement in technology and the lack of natural selection with regards to the human race we are actually pushing our physical evolution backwards.

Instead of growing stronger with each generation and reducing the occurrence of genetic diseases we are increasing the frequency and number of genetic disorders and issues which accelerates our need for increasingly sophisticated technology to help prop up our bodies riddled with issues.

[Tristam]

I would argue that because of our advancement in technology and the lack of natural selection with regards to the human race we are actually pushing our physical evolution backwards.

Instead of growing stronger with each generation and reducing the occurrence of genetic diseases we are increasing the frequency and number of genetic disorders and issues which accelerates our need for increasingly sophisticated technology to help prop up our bodies riddled with issues.

Not quite, if you think of the technology as part of the environment, then we're simply adapting to the ability to pass knowledge along from generation to generation and in that respect it's no different than a species of fish adapting to seawater. Evolution isn't goal oriented, it's not just about gazelles becoming faster and lions becoming stronger. There are tradeoffs all the time. One consequence of having vocal cords is a sacrifice in the amount of air we're able to take in to our lungs, but it's tough to imagine how different we'd be if we had the communication abilites of a dog or cat.