Obama - First Black President

[Maxxthepenguin]

We're still arguing about this shit?

It will never end. Ever.

[Churchill]

He said 250,000 I think, which isn't really rich anymore and I think he pointed that out. You could live comfortably and have savings in some areas, but others you would be middle class.

Anyway, to chime in on this debate: I think a man makes himself. You have a lot of factors that go into who you are, starting as a child with your parents and how much they stressed education and character, then to your teachers throughout life and their passion or ability to make you better, and then to your society/culture and their expectations of what you can/should do and their stereotypes therein.

In the end, you can overcome all of those obstacles without the assistance of anyone else. Many people do this, many more do it with assistance. I talked to you about this Beck but you're going to see the day when to get a job a Bachelor's no longer means anything and a Graduate level education will be the standard. Overall society benefits because everyone is "smarter" however you still have business choosing the best and brightest (vice nepotism).

One point I brought up to a friend on this discussion is, what happens when everyone is educated and they are still mopping floors? Who gets the blame etc. I think colleges charge far too much, but I think that's the issue to address (along with pharmaceuticals, healthcare, lawyers, etc) rather than to provide assistance through taxation. It's the Atkins diet. Sure, you'll lose weight and the problem should be resolved, but now you're going to die early from a heart attack anyway.

[arus2001]

Are your same employees going to take less money if the profits are down, or you turn a lose?

It's something I hinted on my subsequent posting. Not everyone would be wild about taking a pay cut, I'm sure, but as long as you're not in some kind of hyper-volatile market, budgeting is something that could hopefully be planned out. From there, you can work on your base numbers, figuring out that x%, etc..

I know in the other thread, I said nobody needs 250k or more a year to live. Some refuted they had a right to excess, for better or worse, but it doesn't change the fact a modest lifestyle is possible with far less of an income.

Right now, I'm pretty much struggling. Cutting out health insurance, I figure I can live on $850 a month around here on something not a ramen diet before I start looking into luxuries like eating out, buying video games, etc.. Factors like high gas prices (rural area with an old car), getting cut in hours, and so on are basically what's been making things tricky.

Now, if someone offered me a job with an average income of 30k a year where I'm not breaking my back (have knee issues and am prone to migraines), totally stressed, or basically viewed as a social outcast for doing it, with a 5k variable rate (16.6%) higher or lower depending on how they do that year, I'd take it. While I'm rather frugal now, being a bit more generous to myself wouldn't change my monthly needs dramatically. In turn, I'm also capable of saving when the years are good to help make up for the years that aren't. If trends suggest my pay is going to do nothing but plummet, or does so drastically, then I could always pursue a new job.

Such an option has sadly yet to present itself despite having my info in various local employment agencies on top of scouring want ads weekly. Currently $8/hr with anywhere from 25-40 hours a week.

[Dimmauk]

To beckwin: Should it matter if I make 5k a year or 500k a year?
My morals haven't changed with my income, will yours if that ever arises?

I agree that people should get paid according to what their job role is. The issue is that the workers that have helped companies prosper, didn't get anything in return. Then when the company wasn't performing like it used to, those same workers got laid off while the people running/ruining the company got paid.

As someone that has worked for some major electronic companies, I have had to lay people off, because my bosses sucked at running a business. People that I worked with and along side for years, had to be laid off a week before Christmas so their payroll wouldn't be on the year end report. The morons got to keep their jobs a little longer than some, but in the long run we all lost our jobs.

During the past 8 years, I have laid off hundreds of people from 4 different companies that I worked for, and I got laid off from 3 of those companies. It wasn't like this during the Clinton years, and hopefully Obama will do something to fix the economy.

[aurik]

If you're making 250k a year, you're not middle class anywhere, period. People who think that are simply out of touch.

[Dimmauk]

If you're making 250k a year, you're not middle class anywhere, period. People who think that are simply out of touch.

Yeah I wish I could complain about making that much.

[Drako]

Been there, done that. You're making the illogical assumption that because I hold the view that work in capital societies is not innately fair to begin with, that I somehow am at the low-end unable to raise myself. You couldn't be further from the truth.

In your hypothetical example how did that person get 100k? He didn't do it by himself, no matter how much you want to believe so, no man is a rock.

If someone is working harder they deserve more, but are you going to tell me that someone who works 20% more...even 200% more... *deserves* and that's the key word here, because Americans have really warped perceptions of entitlement...*deserves* 10-20x the pay?

If you say yes justify it with something besides "he works harder"...cause I've already said that's just straight up bullshit.

In capital societies we have gained the notion that leaders *deserve* disproportionally more...WHY? This is the root of the issue.

been there, done that?
seriously, i doubt it!!

First, how did he get 100k? of course he could not have worked most of it, he could though depending on his age. Several business are born from retired people everyday. I have more than a few friends that in their 20's are starting to save money to start something in 15-20 years or even less.
Im sure if i work for any shitty company i can get 100k in less than 10 years. I do have graduated, thats why i could make this, im not counting by any means people that dont have enough study. Counting them imo is just stupid.

ps:The actual president from my country (who i think is a moron) does not have education at all, he didnt even got to high school, he barely speaks portuguese (our main language)

I dont want to be part of a world that someone without any education should have equal chances in a job interview as someone that does have.

ps2: although im in a country where this happens sometimes, thats one of the reasons im leaving anyway.

Back to the point, well, most of this money is from banks and government organizations.
Incentive to small and medium business are huge in countries like USA, even here in Brazil you can get lots of money to build anything, the thing is, here is harder because of many reasons (im sure you can imagine which ones, unless you are stupid).

And i never said if u work 20% harder you deserve 20% more, i dont believe any of this and if u thought so, read my post again. What im saying is, if someone owns a company and gets 10000000000000% more than his employees it is because he fuc*ing deserves it, he worked hard to get to this point and probably went through some bad times in more than a few occasions.

I also dont believe that if you work hard enough you will reach were you want to be, thats bullshit!
You do have to work hard to get somewhere, but thats not the only thing, as i said in my other post, it also requires other skills/qualities, if you dont have them , you will be the work force for something, forever.

[Tristam]

He said 250,000 I think, which isn't really rich anymore and I think he pointed that out. You could live comfortably and have savings in some areas, but others you would be middle class.

Anyway, to chime in on this debate: I think a man makes himself. You have a lot of factors that go into who you are, starting as a child with your parents and how much they stressed education and character, then to your teachers throughout life and their passion or ability to make you better, and then to your society/culture and their expectations of what you can/should do and their stereotypes therein.

In the end, you can overcome all of those obstacles without the assistance of anyone else. Many people do this, many more do it with assistance. I talked to you about this Beck but you're going to see the day when to get a job a Bachelor's no longer means anything and a Graduate level education will be the standard. Overall society benefits because everyone is "smarter" however you still have business choosing the best and brightest (vice nepotism).

One point I brought up to a friend on this discussion is, what happens when everyone is educated and they are still mopping floors? Who gets the blame etc. I think colleges charge far too much, but I think that's the issue to address (along with pharmaceuticals, healthcare, lawyers, etc) rather than to provide assistance through taxation. It's the Atkins diet. Sure, you'll lose weight and the problem should be resolved, but now you're going to die early from a heart attack anyway.

I can't stress this enough, nowhere in America is 250k/yr middle class, it's just factually wrong.

In terms of salary comparison, we're already at the point where a bachelor's is worth close to what a high school education was worth 50 years ago, and MS - Ph.D degrees are what the corresponding bachelor's was worth then. A consequence of that is it takes longer now to earn a competitive salary and the age at which people start saving for retirement is increasing. Part of this could be related to people living longer I guess, but the fact remains that getting an education is no longer as much of a sure thing as people make it out to be.

edit: beaten by aurik, was hoping he'd chime in!

[Gregorio]

I deserve rich peoples money because they have too much and I don't have enough!

[Bingbong]

white people are now permitted to tell black jokes now
and use the term "my nigga"

WIN!

[Airenn]

Well, Bush actually did say that he was the president of the people who voted for him. Plus the election controversy where there were questions about the validity of the election

Obama said the he was the president of everyone.

Not trying to agree or disagree on anything here, just wanted to point out that:

Obama IS (well, technically will be) the president of everyone. Not just the people who voted for him.

Everyone who didn't is going to have to get over it and try to work together on this because I think what he said is right.

He's going to be making decisions that affect you even if you didn't support him.

[Seraph]

If you're making 250k a year, you're not middle class anywhere, period. People who think that are simply out of touch.

I seriously have been thinking the same thing while I am reading some of this. When you make enough in a year to buy a home in cash that most people take 30 years to pay off...

You are not middle class.

Look at is this way. Let's say you have a man and a woman living together both making $20 an hour at a standard 40 hour a week job. Before taxes and expenses, they gross $83200 a year. Most people I know don't make $20 an hour. In fact, I believe someone already mentioned that the average American household income is under $50,000 a year. So, how is making five times more than the average HOUSEHOLD all by yourself make you 'middle class'?

Holy. Crap.

[bombard]

Hopefully yes -- but the idea of putting such a low amount as 250,000 in a high tax bracket these days is absurdly low. many, MANY small business have close to that in payroll alone (6 employees making 40k a year for example).

Maybe I'm not understanding how it will work (net profit of over 250000 a year is higher taxed? That I could consider more easily than if you make 250000 regardless of other expenses you get the hammer). Then again, understanding politics is challenge in itself most of the time.

It sucks when you have to lay people off, fire them, etc. If you feel good laying someone off or firing them, you lack some basic moral filter in life anyway (apart from a bad employee being a bad employee, even then it's not fun telling someone to GTFO.)

Hard times are upon us indeed. It's been alot worse for us in history and we've found ways to rebound through innovation, invention, and ambition (and a little luck i'm sure too). It's kinda lame for people wanting what someone else has -- reminds me of when I was a kid.

My friend had a nintendo and it was awesome. I wanted one too. I asked my parents if I could get one and they said we couldn't afford it. Ok, i whined and cried and threw a fit. My parents told me HOW I could go out and find a way to afford one. That winter I must have shoveled many, many driveways, salted many walkways and all the fun winter things. By the end of the winter I had enough to buy what I wanted. YAY! I still own that nintendo I bought when I was seven years old, and I've kept care of it since. Still works and everything. Granted it's not that way for everyone and some people have unfortunate barriers in front of them, but I was seven friggin' years old and I managed to work my way to my 100 Dollar goal. What is preventing grown adults from doing the same (barring the unfortunate handicaps mental and physical)?

Can't have everything you want. Set a goal and when you achieve it, it will be that much better. Setbacks can be setbacks or spun off and turned into something positive. I've never been the best at anything (probably average at best in most things), but I'll always have a survival instinct of which I am glad my parents instilled in me at a young age.


As for The Economy -- I hope Obama's view on the housing market and mortgages has changed since 1998. I know that Obama was only a junior attorney in that case and never publicly 'spoke out' on the lawsuit, but he was involved. It's nice that everyone was afforded the opportunity for the chance at a mortgage, but well we see where that got us. I'm very interested on how Obama can legislate america back to prosperity, and I really hope he can do it without over taxation of ANY class.

Edit:

It's easy to look at it from one side. Try looking at it from both. I've been on both sides, and am very lucky and thankful I'm allowed to have done so.

People are forgetting the expenses and overhead that comes with making $$$$$$$$$. How I wouldn't mind just having someone hand me $$$$$$ and spending nothing to obtain it. I'd gladly hand over 50% of that to anyone in need.

[Bingbong]

I seriously have been thinking the same thing while I am reading some of this. When you make enough in a year to buy a home in cash that most people take 30 years to pay off...

You are not middle class.

Look at is this way. Let's say you have a man and a woman living together both making $20 an hour at a standard 40 hour a week job. Before taxes and expenses, they gross $83200 a year. Most people I know don't make $20 an hour. In fact, I believe someone already mentioned that the average American household income is under $50,000 a year. So, how is making five times more than the average FAMILY all by yourself make you 'middle class'?

Holy. Crap.

250K/ year

Yeah it's not poor, but take away the 40% that normal people pay in taxes/SSN/Medicaid, and already you're at 150K. Again, nothing I'd argue about receiving. Now in my area, an average house goes for 300K. That's like 1400 sq ft, with a bath and a half, one car garage.

You make 250, you prolly buy something bigger. so let's say a 400K house. More than likely two cars, and if you have kids, they cost money too.
Like others have said 250K is not middle class, but lets not act like you're making a King's Ransom here.

Would I take that, hell yeah, but there are lots of people that do much better than 250K/year.

[Dimmauk]

You do know the 250k/year is take home pay right? You dont include gross profit. Its is the bottom line profit. So of course you subtract payroll.

[Zilong]

Would I take that, hell yeah, but there are lots of people that do much better than 250K/year.

And exponentially more people that do much, much worse than that.

But I guess they don't matter in the big picture mirite?

[Tristam]

And exponentially more people that do much, much worse than that.

But I guess they don't matter in the big picture mirite?

Of course not! cause everyone in america just needs to work hard and have a good education and it'll all work out!

/sarcasm off

[bombard]

It's hard to understand why someone who makes x dollars should pay 25% in taxes while person y pays 19% in taxes because they make less to me.

Tax brackets are lame, outdated, and should be overhauled, like the electoral college. Enter the flat tax debate --

[Seraph]

250K/ year

Yeah it's not poor, but take away the 40% that normal people pay in taxes/SSN/Medicaid, and already you're at 150K. Again, nothing I'd argue about receiving. Now in my area, an average house goes for 300K. That's like 1400 sq ft, with a bath and a half, one car garage.

You make 250, you prolly buy something bigger. so let's say a 400K house. More than likely two cars, and if you have kids, they cost money too.
Like others have said 250K is not middle class, but lets not act like you're making a King's Ransom here.
Would I take that, hell yeah, but there are lots of people that do much better than 250K/year.

My point is that people who are making over five times more than the average household are in a really poor position to complain about the way things are. Seriously. You don't get to complain when you don't have much saved up because you bought nicer things than you needed. ._.


Household income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are talking about less than 3.0% of American households when you talk about people over the 200K level. How is that anything but elite?

elite definition | Dictionary.com

I think you just don't understand how things work for the other 97% of everyone out there.

[Stiker]

Hopefully yes -- but the idea of putting such a low amount as 250,000 in a high tax bracket these days is absurdly low.

Yeah, stopped reading right there.