Obama - First Black President

[Plow]

are you really trying to draw that parallel? that's quite the stretch, even for you.

Yes, I called Ayers "the man" because I found that article to be exceptional and carrying a worthwhile message. It's also my opinion that he's done a good deal of good things, and that his motivations for what he did as part of the Weathermen was pretty damn justified- that view of his Weather (Underground, specifically) activities might be different if he had indiscriminately killed innocent bystander-types, but I'm not gonna judge someone for what they obviously did not do.

In response, Plow accuses me of gagging on Obama for my views on Ayers... when Obama denounced all of Ayers destructive actions from his WU days. Do you see the absurdity?

Because the only reason you decided he was good in the first place was that he was tied to Obama.

A fucking 2 year old can tell you didn't know his damn name before it came up in relation to Obama.

[Xiona]

I know this is kinda late and doesnt pertain to the current discussion, but it does fit in with the thread.

who else here was deathly afraid that Obama was going to get shot when he did his speech on election night?

[Kuya]

I was at least twice during the whole thing. I only found out later that there was anti bullet shielding there.

[Plow]

Yeah... every time he walked outside the glass, I was like "ohfuckohfuckohfuck."

[Correction]

Yes, I called Ayers "the man" because I found that article to be exceptional and carrying a worthwhile message. It's also my opinion that he's done a good deal of good things, and that his motivations for what he did as part of the Weathermen was pretty damn justified- that view of his Weather (Underground, specifically) activities might be different if he had indiscriminately killed innocent bystander-types, but I'm not gonna judge someone for what they obviously did not do.

Here's the problem. While Obama and Ayers may carry the same message of taking the future into your own hands and changing it for the better, Obama's message is far more pacifistic, and drawing hope and inspiration from Ayers, who has nothing to offer but his own militant past, is ideological double-dipping. "Yes! The man with the Olive Branch is right!" "Yes! The man with the dynamite is right!"

No matter how inspirational an essay he can write, his decision, even if it was 40 years ago, was diametrically opposed to the age of diplomacy and open relations that Obama's administration is supposed to usher in. I'm sorry if I don't look at pretty words as covering up a man's more violent and so far, unpaid for, legacy.

[Charla]

No matter how inspirational an essay he can write, his decision, even if it was 40 years ago, was diametrically opposed to the age of diplomacy and open relations that Obama's administration is supposed to usher in. I'm sorry if I don't look at pretty words as covering up a man's more violent and so far, unpaid for, legacy.

Exactly. The ages themselves were different, and as such they called for different approaches. Furthermore, there is a good deal of space between "fist-pumping" for the Weather Underground and condemning them for having used explosives to make a point.

What's more, if you consider his legacy "unpaid for", it basically means you don't consider anything to be capable of paying for it, which in turn renders the term itself mostly meaningless.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Ayers, who has nothing to offer but his own militant past

If you think that's all he has to offer, than you're monumentally fucked up.

This man has lived a long life, full of as many complexities as anybody. He has tried to do more good and bad than anyone you'll probably ever know. Don't think that there is only one thing that defines his life. That's just plain wrong.

[kuronosan]

I'm still scratching my head as to why people who support Obama are sucking his dick while people who support McCain are justified.

[Correction]

If you think that's all he has to offer, than you're monumentally fucked up.

This man has lived a long life, full of as many complexities as anybody. He has tried to do more good and bad than anyone you'll probably ever know. Don't think that there is only one thing that defines his life. That's just plain wrong.

I think that convincing my friends into building bombs that get them killed would cast a pretty long shadow over me brushing my granddaughter's hair.

[Charla]

And I think that getting elected citizen of the year would cast a pretty long shadow over trying to stop a war.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I think that convincing my friends into building bombs that get them killed would cast a pretty long shadow over me brushing my granddaughter's hair.

Cast a shadow? Yes. But the wise person can see past the shadow and see who the person is now. No matter what the truth of what happened then is, he has become something completely different. You can see that person in what he does today.

As far as I can tell, no matter what a possible plan that wasn't carried out said, they didn't target people, only buildings. They killed some of their own people and a policeman (and those involved were jailed accordingly.) He is a complex person.

[Plow]

What's more, if you consider his legacy "unpaid for", it basically means you don't consider anything to be capable of paying for it, which in turn renders the term itself mostly meaningless.

You're aware he completely got away with it with no actual punishment because the cops fucked up, right?


And who's supporting McCain? I've supported Obama the entire time, I simply am able to face the fact that he (Ayers) is a terrorist and not sit around trying to argue that terrorism is ok as long as I agree with it.

[kuronosan]

I'm sorry, how is Obama a terrorist again? I must have missed that.

If Obama is a terrorist, then so is pretty much every politician that ever existed.

Unless, of course, you only extend terrorism to people who have known people that used to be terrorists.

[Kuya]

You're aware he completely got away with it with no actual punishment because the cops fucked up, right?


And who's supporting McCain? I've supported Obama the entire time, I simply am able to face the fact that he's a terrorist and not sit around trying to argue that terrorism is ok as long as I agree with it.

that last sentence totally says something you don't mean to say lol

[Plow]

As far as I can tell, no matter what a possible plan that wasn't carried out said, they didn't target people, only buildings.

Then you don't know what you're talking about, because many of them will tell you themselves that they did.

They killed some of their own people and a policeman (and those involved were jailed accordingly.) He is a complex person.

Cept that whole part where they weren't.



I'm so done here, arguing the same shit against people that don't have the slightest clue or the 10 fucking minutes to get one over and over again is ridiculous.

[Plow]

By "he" I meant Bill Ayers gah

[Churchill]

Politicians...terrorists...

Cake...Dessert...

[Charla]

And who's supporting McCain? I've supported Obama the entire time, I simply am able to face the fact that he's a terrorist and not sit around trying to argue that terrorism is ok as long as I agree with it.

If by "paid for" he meant legally, then that's one thing. But it does seem like there are ways to make up for something other than doing time for it.

And what I was trying to argue is that "terrorism" is ok if the whole world agrees with it. But I guess those Second Boer War guys I posted last page were terrorists, too. Never mind then.

[Plow]

here, for all you lazy bastards, is a short, liberal written article about them, at least you can have the slightest clue what the basic outline of the situation is

Quieter Lives for 60's Militants, but Intensity of Beliefs Hasn't Faded - New York Times


also, lol @ name becoming the weather underground because weathermen was sexist

[Kuya]

What does terrorism mean? Achieving goals via inflicting fear?