Obama - First Black President

[Maxxthepenguin]

So, why are we still supporting them again?

Because it's we have strong historical ties to Israel and they haven't wronged us. So we turn a blind eye.

That said, the conflict is not one sided at all. Neither side is really in the right at this point in time.

[Maxxthepenguin]

superobamaworld.com

awesome

lol blacks can't swim

[Elvis]

Because it's we have strong historical ties to Israel and they haven't wronged us. So we turn a blind eye.

That said, the conflict is not one sided at all. Neither side is really in the right at this point in time.

No offense (I really mean it), but you made a statement like this before and it's irrelevant.

It's not about sides, it's about finding out the objective truth and using basic moral judgments and the rule of international law.

People who simply say: "I'm pro-Israel and I'm going to rehash pro-Israel talking-points" or "I'm pro-Palestine and I'm going to rehash pro-Palestine talking-points" are not morally serious or otherwise objective (as humanly possible) analysts.

What we should do is not focus on a side. We should focus on the history of the conflict: ex; The roots of Zionism/ the history of the region before the formation of the Zionist movement/ the political movements before and leading up to the 1948 war/ etc.

This is not an evenhanded reality. Life is not evenhanded. For one, the death toll is not evenhanded. Let's not go into it, but just use some critical thinking:

How do human rights groups ascertain the nature of a particular instance/event from which it draws a conclusion to which constitutes a 'report'?

Based on these reports dealing with casualties, how do we understand the nature of the violence on both sides?
-Example: Suicide bombing is a no-brainer. It's deplorable and wrong to target civilians. Etc.

How do we put the violence in context? Do the Palestinians have a right to resist?

Etc. etc.

We can talk about the several peace agreements. We can talk about the other instances in history where a native population resisted an occupation. We can discuss whether Israel is instituting an apartheid in the territories. We can discuss the nature of the walls being built. Is it for security or is it to fragment the Palestinian population?

I didn't take a side in this conflict. I have no stake in it in the direct sense (I'm not an Israeli or a Jew; I'm not an Arab or a Muslim). We're all Americans and taxpayers though. That's our stake.

As to why we support Israel? Israel is a strategic asset to the United States. I remember a quote somewhere from an Israeli historian/professor who said that Israel now is more militarized than the Germans were during WW2.

[Charla]

What we should do is not focus on a side...

As to why we support Israel? Israel is a strategic asset to the United States. I remember a quote somewhere from an Israeli historian/professor who said that Israel now is more militarized than the Germans were during WW2.

You can't really have it both ways. You can pick a side and then attempt to be impartial anyway, but as you just said, we've already picked a side.

[Elvis]

My point is about emphasis.

I did not get into this debate (generally speaking, whether it's in a random thread here on BG or w/ friends, etc.) by picking a side (Israel or Palestine). It's not a game.

What a serious person should do is try to learn about the issue. Get the facts from a variety of sources. Based on your research, yes, you will ultimately be able to characterize your stance.

I believe Israel has a right to exist (just not on top of Palestinians). But I also accept that it DOES exist and it's not plausible to go back that far in the debate. You have to accept that Israel exists. You don't have to accept it's RIGHT to exist - that's another matter.

My contention is that Israel (with US support) has been continually blocking a peace settlement in the face of countless UN and World Court decisions and extensive record of human rights violations/etc.

But anyways, in terms of sides - my point is let your research dictate where you end up, instead of your emotions and the narrative you see on TV/elsewhere. The act of 'picking' a side, sounds to me, like an arbitrary move in contrast to arriving at a stance dictated by being informed (whatever that means). Read books by those you don't like and those you do, and go over the essential records in international law (you don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand this stuff).

[Churchill]

I for one, would love to jump into Israel and kill all of the Israeli's minus the hot chicks.

But seriously, I'd like to go kill them all.

[Beckwin]

I for one, would love to jump into Israel and kill all of the Israeli's minus the hot chicks.

But seriously, I'd like to go kill them all.

hitler!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pohibaba]

So, I came here to see the responses people would have for President-elect Obama possibly asking Hillary Clinton to be Secretary of State, but I haven't seen anything on it. Am I the only one wondering exactly what foreign policy experience she has that would make her the best qualified person in the country for this job? If this has been discussed before and my search turned up nothing, please point me in the right direction.

[Beckwin]

well she took sniper fire in- oh wait

She's likely familiar with many foreign leaders and she's intelligent/competent, but yeah Sec. of State doesn't seem like quite the right fit.

[Shuvo]

No offense (I really mean it), but you made a statement like this before and it's irrelevant.

As to why we support Israel? Israel is a strategic asset to the United States. I remember a quote somewhere from an Israeli historian/professor who said that Israel now is more militarized than the Germans were during WW2.

I don't think so.... My interpretation of it was because of 2 main reasons - The first being religious. The Jews, Muslims and Christians have been fighting over that little piece of land for 2,000 years (Crusades etc) and I don't think today is any exception. Secondly that Jews control some of the most powerful lobbying group in the US and carry a very large influence in the US elections, hence the government never want to back down in Israel.

[Churchill]

The reason we will always support Israel is because for what the Bible says is true to come to fruition, there needs to be a JEWISH state lol.

[Kuya]

What the bible says is true will be true by virtue of self fulfilling prophecy.

[0ni0n]

What the bible says is true will be true by virtue of self fulfilling prophecy.

Wasn't bible written by a bunch of Jewish scholars way back? It's more like a medieval version of manifest destiny.

[Shuvo]

What the bible says is true will be true by virtue of self fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, it was the reason the British Empire decided to capture Juruseleum from the Ottoman Turks in 1917, and then later supported by the Americans instead (after the fall of the British Empire). It is probably the root cause of all all the tensions between the west and the mid-east.

It's scary how much religion effects foreign policy, even in this day and age

[Vade]

YouTube - Your Weekly Address from the President-Elect

Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team

[Elvis]

While I'd say it's true, that there is a religious element to the support, it's not the main reason or even close.

Israel did not matter to us until the Six Day War. We openly supported West Germany (where the majority of the government/intellectual community were ex-Nazis). Israel became a strategic interest to us after their victory in the late 60s. Ever since then, they've been our offshoot in the ME.

If the religious support was the main reason as you suggest, why do we give tremendous tolerance/support to Saudi Arabia? Why do we go batshit on Iran about being fundamentalist and anti-human rights when Saudi Arabia is the MOST fundamentalist Islamic country and has a horrendous human rights record?

No, the reason we support Saudi Arabia is because the oil goes to London and New York instead of toward it's own people. The reason we support Israel is because they can keep the other Arab countries/militias in their place (except Hezbollah, a rising guerrilla force).

As much as we (collectively, the international community) harp on Israel, the US is no better (see: Iraq). Our interest in that region goes way back. Our aim is to subjugate the people to *our* economic and social programs. Israel is like a caricature of the US in that region. It's pet project is the Lebanese.

[Churchill]

I disagree, I think religion is one of the biggest reasons we support Israel, and anyone who didn't grow up brainwashed into thinking it's a good idea because of religion, the holocaust, or Muslims being evil thinks it is because of the Jewish lobby.

Israel's military might is extremely over-assessed...but they have nukes, and we keep those from other countries in the region, further pissing off the middle east. We like Saudi for oil, but they're too extreme for nukes. We like India for jobs, but we can't have them nuking Pakistan so we install officials there who won't nuke everyone else and give them nukes to offset India.

No, the truth is, without our support Israel would become a bloodbath. If we didn't tell Israel to try and keep it calm, they'd expand their borders to the Euphrates because that's where they think it really lies.

I'd love to see Saudi and Israel fall.

[Elvis]

I disagree, I think religion is one of the biggest reasons we support Israel, and anyone who didn't grow up brainwashed into thinking it's a good idea because of religion, the holocaust, or Muslims being evil thinks it is because of the Jewish lobby.

Israel's military might is extremely over-assessed...but they have nukes, and we keep those from other countries in the region, further pissing off the middle east. We like Saudi for oil, but they're too extreme for nukes. We like India for jobs, but we can't have them nuking Pakistan so we install officials there who won't nuke everyone else and give them nukes to offset India.

No, the truth is, without our support Israel would become a bloodbath. If we didn't tell Israel to try and keep it calm, they'd expand their borders to the Euphrates because that's where they think it really lies.

I'd love to see Saudi and Israel fall.

Whether you think it's religion or regional supremacy doesn't matter ultimately. I don't think we can quantify the religious support amongst our leaders because there is simply a lot of overlap strategically between the US and Israel.

People will argue it's not in our interest to support Israel. Well, our aim, IMO, is to subjugate the ME countries toward our economic interests. Keeping them in line and suppressing popular movements. None of this is controversial. It's common sense.

The continued illegal settlements, the 'separation wall,' the countless human rights violation, etc. etc. all point to one thing: apartheid. Israel is colonizing Palestine. They are, in effect, disintegrating the Palestinian people.

Let's not forget, that Dick Cheney (along with 145 Republicans and 31 Democrats) voted against a resolution, calling for the South African government in freeing Nelson Mandela. I believe, back then, we classified Mandela and his organization (African National Congress) as a terrorist group. So I just don't buy into these grand justifications. We only follow our interests at any given time. There is no reason to think the US gives a damn about apartheid or the Palestinians or any of these romantic notions, unless it first serves their (the people who run things) interests.

Ironically enough, Mandela was only taken off the US terror list only 5 months ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7484517.stm

As to Israel's military strength - I think it's undoubtedly the regional powerhouse.

As to Saudi Arabia, yep. My point in comparing Saudi Arabia to Israel is that the religious aspect is not the main reason. Saudi Arabia is the most fundamentalist Islamic country in the region (maybe the world) and has a horrible human rights record and was home to most of the 9/11 hijackers. Etc. etc.

It's ruled by a family dictatorship that WE KEEP in power. I look at all this, in the same way I look at this bullshit about a 'war on terror' or our leaders' views on terrorism generally - it's terrorism when the 'they' do it. So, IMO, these exotic justifications are unnecessary because the most easily observable one is also the most reasonable one. Sanctimony/hypocrisy/verb/noun.

[Milton]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/...a_28647552.jpg

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/...6/39580868.jpg

BARACK OBAMA PHOTOS: Obama's life in photos -- chicagotribune.com

[Beckwin]

Joe The Plumber - SecureOurFreedom.com - Home

I hope to god someone raids that site.