Obama - First Black President

[Bingbong]

Were you refuting his claim that more Palestinians die, trying to say that maybe some of those Palestinians deserved it, or are you did you just try to morally obfuscate his point by randomly posting a graph?

No, the numbers are what they are, there's no disputing that, wouldn't try to. People are dying on both sides, daily, and that sucks. There's a cease-fire in place, yet rockets continue to go off.

Now, it come across in this thread that somehow, Israel is the one to blame for the whole mess, and that by pacifying their Arab neighbors by giving up land will somehow stop this, is a bit naive.

It's tough to find fault for people defending their homes, and I guess it's up to interpretation whose home it was first. But I highly doubt that folks born in this last century much care about who was in charge when the Romans blasted through in 300 BC. In this day and age, giving back land is not the answer. Part of the answer has to deal with the extremism involved in the area. But then you run into the issue of how to deal with people who think it is within their god-given right to remove other people from the planet.

[Churchill]

It's not their home, they deserve to lose it.

[Dimmauk]

It's not their home, they deserve to lose it.

How is it not their home? They have a flag there.

[Correction]

It's not their home, they deserve to lose it.

When the alternative appears to be non-existence, I can't blame them for fighting to keep what they have.

[Kiro]

Nuke it and start over.

[thatwasnifty]

It's not their home, they deserve to lose it.

It's not whose home? Jews and Arabs have both been living there for centuries. It's not like either of them just magically appeared after World War 2.

[Elvis]

No, the numbers are what they are, there's no disputing that, wouldn't try to. People are dying on both sides(1), daily, and that sucks. There's a cease-fire in place, yet rockets continue to go off.(2)

Now, it come across in this thread that somehow, Israel is the one to blame for the whole mess, and that by pacifying their Arab neighbors by giving up land will somehow stop this, is a bit naive.(3)

It's tough to find fault for people defending their homes(4), and I guess it's up to interpretation whose home it was first(5). But I highly doubt that folks born in this last century much care about who was in charge when the Romans blasted through in 300 BC(6). In this day and age, giving back land is not the answer(7). Part of the answer has to deal with the extremism(8) involved in the area. But then you run into the issue of how to deal with people who think it is within their god-given right to remove other people from the planet(9).

@1
Yes, technically people are dying on both sides. I think we hear comments like this all the time in a wide range of discussions. It's a gross simplification and almost infantile summation of the comment. Why?

Well, for one there is a huge disparity in death/injury. I posted the numbers already. So why the need to be 'even-handed' when the reality is not even-handed? Perhaps, we could justify Zionism and the application of Zionism. I've seen those arguments. It's a moral argument. For instance, some people argue that an ethnic cleansing/genocide can be good. Example: the Native American people. There wouldn't be a United States of America without the death of 12 million (I believe this is the popular figure, could be wrong) Native Americans over that period of time, back then.

That to me is a difficult issue to reconcile with in retrospect. My moral judgment is that the uprooting of the native population was wrong but then I wouldn't be here. The world would be different. It's a catch-22 though because we're making the judgment in hindsight. What's happening to the Palestinians is going on right now, with US taxpayers' money.

You may or may not agree with the apartheid accusation. I believe what's happening is undoubtedly apartheid. People in the international community have gone on record saying it's apartheid. People who previously experienced and fought against the apartheid in South Africa have confirmed this as well. People in the mainstream of American politics, like former president Jimmy Carter, have confirmed this. At the very least, it's worth a look. It's worth our time to research what's going on over there since it's the cause for a lot of animosity amongst Arabs toward the US and because we enable Israel's behavior.

Take the case of South Africa. Nelson Mandela was on the US terror list. The African National Congress - his militia - was on the US terror list. Only 5 months ago did we remove him and other members of his group from the terror list. This came in retrospect obviously. Mandela and his people won. They may not have solved problems for blacks in South Africa, but they beat apartheid.

The Palestinians have a chance to win as well, against the apartheid system. We can make the correct moral judgments and be free of the pragmatic issues (see: Native American genocide and our existence) because history is still being written. It's an open case. Furthermore, we're (people advocating a 2-state solution) not proposing that Israel be replaced with a Palestine. We're in opposition to the occupation and advocating the formation of a Palestinian state.

Who knows what a total disintegration of Palestine and it's people would bring? Who knows what a greater Israel would bring? These are pragmatic issues not moral issues. The moral issue is quite simple and can be answered now instead of 200 years later in retrospect: apartheid is wrong/ethnic cleansing is wrong/etc.

This is already tl:dr so I'll respond to the other points later.

[archibaldcrane]

In actual Obama news:
Sources: Holder is Obama's choice for attorney general - CNN.com

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Clinton Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder is President-elect Barack Obama's choice for the position of attorney general, according to two prominent Democrats involved in transition matters.

Sources say Eric Holder has been asked by President-elect Barack Obama to become his attorney general.

Holder, who is still being vetted, has indicated he will accept the job if it is offered, the sources said.

If confirmed, Holder will be the first African-American to lead the Justice Department.

Holder, 57, co-chaired Obama's vice presidential selection process.

A graduate of Columbia University and former federal prosecutor, Holder is a partner at the Washington law firm of Covington & Burling.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/PO....holder.ap.jpg
Would've preferred Russ Feingold, but then again I can't name a position in government I wouldn't prefer Russ Feingold for.

[Beckwin]

I'd like to see his appointments start moving away from the Clinton Admin. Not to say this guy, Emanuel, and rumored Hillary as Sec. State aren't qualified, but I want to see some fresh faces and definitely some non-neocon/theocon Republicans (Chuck Hagel should get something, definitely. Colin Powell is being rumored for a cabinet position as well... let's just hope he'd be more inclined to stick to his guns this time around). The only remaining "Clintonites" I'd want to see are Al Gore and Bill Richardson (and they've pretty strongly distinguished themselves beyond their Clinton associations). Arizona Gov. Napolitano would be a great addition as well, but she's best fit for Mr. Holder's job... which works out, because I think she's needed here in AZ because our legislature is tilted Republican and kind of crazy.

Gore for Sec. Energy
Richardson for... idk now, State ideally but seems Hillary might get that
Hagel... maybe Defense?
Powell is being rumored for Education, which is kind of an oddball but maybe some military discipline could shape things up (bureaucratically)
Paul Krugman for fed chair or treasury secretary, just to make right-wing economists squirm

oh I also recall that the current head of the House's budget committee will be Obama's budget guy

[Kiro]

LANDO~

[pohibaba]

I hope President Obama selects Richardson as UN Ambassador even though I think he'd be better with State. And arch, even though I'm a conservative, I agree with your opinion of Feingold. That man deserves tons of respect from EVERYONE.

[Bingbong]

Beckwin, I agree with you on that point.

If he based his campaign on the premise that "we are the change we've been waiting for", how is refilling the cabinet with people that are not a change going to help things?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Beckwin, I agree with you on that point.

If he based his campaign on the premise that "we are the change we've been waiting for", how is refilling the cabinet with people that are not a change going to help things?

"Change" can mean anything, including "change" from the Bush years. Putting people in the cabinet who aren't from the Bush admin. is still "change".

[Bingbong]

"Change" can mean anything, including "change" from the Bush years. Putting people in the cabinet who aren't from the Bush admin. is still "change".

Not dynamic enough "change" for my own personal opinion. If someone is going to go into things as "the change candidate", there better be names I've never heard of. Being 8 years removed from the White House isn't really that different.

[Dimmauk]

Not dynamic enough "change" for my own personal opinion. If someone is going to go into things as "the change candidate", there better be names I've never heard of. Being 8 years removed from the White House isn't really that different.

Luckily you aren't making the decisions.

Is it too much to ask for people that are fucking qualified for the job? Change would be not putting in people that are friends and buddies, like Bush.

[Bingbong]

Luckily you aren't making the decisions.

Is it too much to ask for people that are fucking qualified for the job? Change would be not putting in people that are friends and buddies, like Bush.

Yeah, that's great, Change we had in 1992. Good Start.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Not dynamic enough "change" for my own personal opinion. If someone is going to go into things as "the change candidate", there better be names I've never heard of. Being 8 years removed from the White House isn't really that different.

I agree, I bet it's not what most people had in mind, but it's still "change".

[Maxxthepenguin]

Not dynamic enough "change" for my own personal opinion. If someone is going to go into things as "the change candidate", there better be names I've never heard of. Being 8 years removed from the White House isn't really that different.

As both Bush and Clinton have proved, starting your cabinet with people who don't know how to play the game results in inability to play the game. If Obama wants to get stuff done quick (and he seems to) he needs people who know how to get things done. A new, inexperienced staff combined with a new, inexperienced president wouldn't bring change very fast at all.

Yeah, that's great, Change we had in 1992. Good Start.

I bet you mean 93.
Clinton started with new faces people didn't know and trust. Obama doesn't want to make that mistake.

[*Shinzon*]

Remember I posted a few weeks back about the Auto industry going to shit well heres some more lulz from GM. They have been sending out emails, the top brass has, to not only employees asking them to lobby congress giving them the billions they need to survive, but to people who own GM vehicles.

You made the right choice when you put your confidence in General Motors, and we appreciate your past support. I want to assure you that we are making our best vehicles ever, and we have exciting plans for the future. But we need your help now. Simply put, we need you to join us to let Congress know that a bridge loan to help U.S. automakers also helps strengthen the U.S. economy and preserve millions of American jobs.

Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The U.S. economy is at a crossroads due to the worldwide credit crisis, and all Americans are feeling the effects of the worst economic downturn in 75 years. Despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, U.S. auto sales rely on access to credit, which is all but frozen through traditional channels.

The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research:

• One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers
• Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
• U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
• The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking for your support in this vital effort by contacting your state representatives.

Please take a few minutes to go to Facts About the Auto Crisis - GM Facts and Fiction, where we have made it easy for you to contact your U.S. senators and representatives. Just click on the "I'm a Concerned American" link under the "Mobilize Now" section, and enter your name and ZIP code to send a personalized e-mail stating your support for the U.S. automotive industry.

Let me assure you that General Motors has made dramatic improvements over the last 10 years. In fact, we are leading the industry with award-winning vehicles like the Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Pontiac G8, GMC Acadia, Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn AURA and more. We offer 18 models with an EPA estimated 30 MPG highway or better — more than Toyota or Honda. GM has 6 hybrids in market and 3 more by mid-2009. GM has closed the quality gap with the imports, and today we are putting our best quality vehicles on the road.

Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site.

Thank you for helping keep our economy viable

Now Obama has pledged to do what he can to make the auto industry survive however, each and every day it gets worse and worse and it looks as though GM and Chrysler wont last till he gets in office. By Christmas Both those companies may be gone and we'll have a cataclysmic economic problem to face. This should be interesting.

[Kiro]

Fuck yeh. WASTELAND TIME! GATHER WEAPONS AND AMMO~