California Proposition 8 Case Re-Opening Online Petition

[Julian]

To all the people opposing gay marriage:

If you were gay, how would you feel if you were denied the right to get married?

Here, I went ahead and quoted it for you.

6 pages and not a single real answer to this simple question.

[Rem]

Valisk, do you believe people are born gay or choose to be gay?

I've had this argument with him before in ls chat a couple of years ago. LOL

[aurik]

Here, I went ahead and quoted it for you.

6 pages and not a single real answer to this simple question.

You can marry, just not anyone that you feel intimate about. According to Valisk, this is equality.

[Demosthenes11]

I will repeat what I said a few pages ago.

Anybody who believes gays should not have the right to marry are bigots that either:
a) accept they are bigots and embrace it
b) hide behind bullshit excuses which get knocked down constantly and are completely devoid of complex thought

Let's guess which one Valisk is!

[Julian]

You can marry, just not anyone that you feel intimate about. According to Valisk, this is equality.

Awesome!

[Yuri-G]

That's the thing, it's reserved for ANYBODY willing to marry the opposite sex. I have the exact same right to marry a woman just like a homosexual has the exact same right to marry a women. If he chooses not to exercise his right to marry a woman then that's his personal decision.

You have the right to marry someone you love who is of legal age and able to give consent. I do not.

[Tristam]

You can marry, just not anyone that you feel intimate about. According to Valisk, this is equality.

Man: Hi Woman let's date and get married!

Woman: Sure that sounds great!

Man: P.S. I'm gay!

Yay equality?

[Valisk]

And lots of people, me included, think that selective service should be extended to include women where it isn't logistically impractical. And that makes it a terrible example.

Just because YOU believe it should be changed doesn't make it a terrible example because it's still there, unchanged.

The difference with marriage law is that it is a conflict when you say men and women have different rights on who they may marry. Men may marry women, whereas women may not. That's not equal protection under the law.

See below.

There's nothing stopping homosexuals from getting married in every traditional sense of the word. They can have a ceromony, reception, get a power of attorney, etc, and live a married lifestyle.

The only thing they don't get are the government (tax payers) benefits (not rights, benefits) that come with the state recognizing your marriage. The government hands out beneifts all the time based on discrimination, it's bascially what makes them benefits and I don't see any outcry over that.

law =/= benefits. They ARE granted equal right, just aren't recognized by the state to reap BENEFITS. Correct me if I'm wrong.

<3 Rem

As for as do I believe they are born gay or if it's a choice... Um... I personally believe it's a choice. You choose who you love and who you allow to get near you and show affection.

[Julian]

Look, another person dodges my question!

[Yuri-G]

Look, another person dodges my question!

It's ok, it's his choice to be incapable of a legitimate answer.

[meson]

When did you choose to be straight?

[Valisk]

I will repeat what I said a few pages ago.

Anybody who believes gays should not have the right to marry are bigots that either:
a) accept they are bigots and embrace it
b) hide behind bullshit excuses which get knocked down constantly and are completely devoid of complex thought

Let's guess which one Valisk is!

Ok, let's get this straight. No pun intended. I'm neutral on the subject. I'm not for it, I'm not against it. I didn't want to come out and say that at then beginning because then I'd just be accused of being a troll. I'm not a troll just trying to get reactions out of people and piss them off. I simply want to know what everyone thinks and how they defend certain points of views. Playing devil's advocate if you will. I'm just taking an opposing stance and gathering information from both the affirmative and the opposition.

If this proposition ever came to Texas, I would either not vote at all on it, or vote to allow them to marry.

[archibaldcrane]

They ARE granted equal right

No, jesus christ you're thick.

Men can marry women, women can't marry women. One has the right to marry women, the other doesn't. That is not equal. They both have the right to marry, but they don't have equal rights.

[aurik]

Just because YOU believe it should be changed doesn't make it a terrible example because it's still there, unchanged.

It does make it a terrible example, actually. Two wrongs don't make a right, and so forth.

law =/= benefits. They ARE granted equal right, just aren't recognized by the state to reap BENEFITS. Correct me if I'm wrong.

They are not granted equal rights. In most states, it is MUCH harder to adopt children if you are not in a marriage. In some states, marriage is a prerequisite for adoption. Therefore, the difference in adoption rights amount to a difference in equal protection under the laws.

[Demosthenes11]

the gender comparison is irrelevant.

Straights have the right to marry who they fall in love with if they are of consenting age.
gays do not have the right to marry whom they love even if they are of consenting age.

That. Is. Not. Equal.

[Valisk]

Look, another person dodges my question!

Sorry, missed it. I would't know how to answer that because I'm not in that situation. That's like asking my what I would do if I was in the middle of the ocean surrounded by sharks. I could tell you theoretically what I would do on paper, but wouldnt know if I'd execute it irl.

But on paper, if I were gay and people were preventing me from getting married, I'd probably be pissed. But nowhere did I say that gay people arent allowed to be upset.

Oh and someone asked when did I choose to be straight. When I was old enough to make my own decisions and decide what I was attracted to. So 12ish? Before then it was probably "ewww girls have cooties".

[archibaldcrane]

the gender comparison is irrelevant.

Kind of, but it points more directly to the actual letter of the law, and since people are much more sensitive to sexism than homophobia, and there is a much longer legal history regarding gender rights than gay rights, it's not a bad tack to take as far as defense goes. Probably holds up much better in an "equal protection" argument as well.

[Intense]

Sorry, missed it. I would't know how to answer that because I'm not in that situation. That's like asking my what I would do if I was in the middle of the ocean surrounded by sharks. I could tell you theoretically what I would do on paper, but wouldnt know if I'd execute it irl.

But on paper, if I were gay and people were preventing me from getting married, I'd probably be pissed. But nowhere did I say that gay people arent allowed to be upset.

Oh and someone asked when did I choose to be straight. When I was old enough to make my own decisions and decide what I was attracted to. So 12ish? Before then it was probably "ewww girls have cooties".

It was a conscious decision? You thought long and hard one day and decided "to be straight"? Did you then proceed to stand up in front a group of friends and family and pronounce your straightness? Give me a break.

[Valisk]

It does make it a terrible example, actually. Two wrongs don't make a right, and so forth.




They are not granted equal rights. In most states, it is MUCH harder to adopt children if you are not in a marriage. In some states, marriage is a prerequisite for adoption. Therefore, the difference in adoption rights amount to a difference in equal protection under the laws.

Adoption is not a right... that's a privlege.

And Arch, I still think that it is equal if a man can marry an opposite and a woman can marry an opposite. That's equal to me. You can call me "thick" and every other name you can think of, but that's how I feel.

[Valisk]

It was a conscious decision? You thought long and hard one day and decided "to be straight"? Did you then proceed to stand up in front a group of friends and family and pronounce your straightness? Give me a break.

Because that's what you do when you make every decision? Oh shit, I have to piss. Let me call up all my family and friends and share the news. Are you kidding me?