SAM vs DRK (Max Dmg Output)

[Kellanved]

Gods below, it’s like some allakhazam/killingifrit twilight zone. The point of the discussion is not about you or your friend that’s the “best” on server X. All things being relatively equal, and purely considering job classes, samurai-amano should have the edge over apoc-dark knight in raw damage out put. With all the recent changes, the samurai class is effectively the master of TP gain now, and in general the class that uses that most WS will potentially be doing the most damage, since weapon skills are naturally more damaging than normal hits.

All discussion relative to the colibri camp should just be discarded, because then you'd have to factor in the piercing advantage of various jobs. Now if this wasn’t a factor like in the case of THF-Mandau/SAM-yoich. The THF-mandau will not achieve the same out put as SAM-yochi simply due to what was mentioned above. I don’t believe a THF/anything will match the TP gain of SAM.

Draken, how are you maintaining 6 hit when you lower your delay from 450 to 437 with your TP set?

Arthars, ridill war is far from “dead,” in fact I’d go so far as to say it only recently just got out-classed by Gaxe war due to King’s justice and then not by much (all things, again being equal) though experiences may vary. Oh, and I wouldn’t give hagun so much credit.

Speaking of 2 handed vs. 1 handed. Considering that the potential to use WS far more often than 1H users was already present, the substantial impacts of that recent change was making the 2 handed weapon skills far more potent than it ever was before, along with additional increase in melee ave. closing/eliminating the DoT from attack speed advantage of 1H. (attack food?). This being the case, 1H will still compete with 2H, though 2H is now the clear leader and the degree to which 1H can compete just depends purely on the specific job’s arsenal.

[Rama]

Draken, how are you maintaining 6 hit when you lower your delay from 450 to 437 with your TP set?

Namas gives him like 20 tp or something stupidly high like that.

[shaddix]

ridill war is far from “dead,”

wat

[Loziel]

Arthars, ridill war is far from “dead,”

Get back in your grave, you may frighten someone

Edit: Drg > all in merits and sustained DOT fights (Dyna Einherjar TP Burn Kirin etc) now btw, the TP gain and easy to reach 6 hit setup on this job is sick and second only to Samurai. Coupled with probably the best Multi Hit WS in the game Drg has become a real powerhouse and found a great Niche for itself after all this time. With Gungnir or Ryunohige you are looking at a deathmachine.

[Aragon of Odin]

I can you see saying as a general statment DRG > all for meriting on Birds, other then that you're wrong IMO. When you take away that 25% piercing bonus you get when at birds past experience has shown me that DRG isn't good at all and I would rate it amongst the lowest DD performers in things like Einhejar, Dyna, Kirin etc.

Most jobs have a pretty easy time acheiving a 6 hit build now a days, it's not anything special DRG has. As War/Sam it takes me Rajas, Brutal and Chiv or Ecphoria, which are all common pieces of gear most melee have access to.

I've parsed some very well geared DRG's at Kirin's, KV(Altho this is only a 30 sec fight) and meriting on Mamools, none of them would leave me to believe DRG is near the top of the DD chain.

[Nightmarelord]

Draken, how are you maintaining 6 hit when you lower your delay from 450 to 437 with your TP set?

Coulda swore he was spamming namas, not kaiten.

[Cloudius]

Yeah I am talking about all out situations, no regards of mp issues or mp sink. However, I am still in favour of sam. I have tested both and drk do come out short for me. However, my test are not conclusive. I will need to parse probably a lot more and make comparison and more tweaks.

I remember parsing with you a while back on birds, and you won by like 1%(?).
From what I remember, you won in TTL WS dmg, and I won in TTL melee dmg, but you ended up a lil ahead of me almost the whole time (gd kaiten!).

I'd parse again with you once I have a stable play time again, for your testing of course.

Edit: In the talk of souleater, I almost never use it outside of a zerg, but it probably woulda gave me the edge to win that parser. Oh well maybe next time!

[richardd]

as far as none relics go, i have both 75 DRK and SAM and i'd like to think my gear is ok for both of them. Im a very aggressive player, i switch targets fast, i engage 1st and i WS the second i have 100 TP, but im also efficient. I voke on my sam and i seigan a lot and i put on dread spikes on my DRK whenever i Last Resort for the Desperate blows. As far as raw dmg output... i really think sam has the edge, if they are both equally merited/skilled/geared. If my drk had more freedom to souleater, i would say they're both equal, but that's not going to happen lol. Sam has the ability to do more dmg while being more efficient.
Apoc will change that since DRK's will swing a little faster than they used to before but now they cure IV themselves everytime they WS. I like apoc, for drk tanking it's really nice, but as far as raw dmg goes, it doesn't change it as much as other people think (depending on your play style i guess), at least from my perspective. Guillo averages out way better than Catas, and im not that far behind on melee swings either with hasso and 4 DB merits (even tho you only need 3) and even w/o last resort, you're still keeping up. Apoc will still outperform though because even though a perdu sickle or tred scythe can guillo for 400 over a catas average, the extra swings will more than make up for it.

Thats why i like amano. you have a WS that gives you the power of a 300 TP Futsuno Gekko, that you can spam endlessley... thats just retarded. At real camps, thats too much to keep up with.. . except for namas spam i guess... but meh lol. I hate pty'ing with those assholes, i rather invite a monk or a decked out nin, they'll at least take hate once in a while, unlike someone i know... /stare draken

[Aesctaa]

I like apoc, for drk tanking it's really nice, but as far as raw dmg goes, it doesn't change it as much as other people think

See my parse below.. pre-apoc the DRK that parse is against would always come within 1-2% of me either way.

Guillo averages out way better than Catas, and im not that far behind on melee swings either with hasso and 4 DB merits (even tho you only need 3) and even w/o last resort, you're still keeping up. Apoc will still outperform though because even though a perdu sickle or tred scythe can guillo for 400 over a catas average, the extra swings will more than make up for it.

Are you saying Guillo averages 400 more than cata? My weaponskill average using exclusively cata varies between 50-100 below if i were to use guillo only, i have not parsed insurgency yet but eyeballing it seems weaker or equal to guillo.

Thats why i like amano. you have a WS that gives you the power of a 300 TP Futsuno Gekko, that you can spam endlessley... thats just retarded. At real camps, thats too much to keep up with.

I'm not going to say which i think is better in terms of absolute maximum potential, the few opportunities i have had to parse with amano SAMs has been at mamools where fang rush/dispelling wind/flashga really restricts how "Optimal" both DD can be. With catastrophe i think it is easier for DRK to reach its potential.


This thread lacks parses, so i'll begin with one that puts some context on the gap between decked Tred DRK, and decked Apoc DRK. Green is cookie cutter Blackbelt/usu/destroyers MNK/NIN using mithkabobs. red is Tred DRK/SAM with identical gear to mine except NQ Ebody, using coeurl subs. Birds camp(lol), parse was taken by a mule, missing % is attributed to a party above us at the mamools that occasionally strayed into the parse mules chatlog. I used Catastrophe 90-95% of weaponskills, guillo very occasionally, hasso fulltime. Songs were Minx2/marchx2. From left to right, categories are: Total dmg, Total dmg%, Melee dmg, Effect dmg, Spell dmg, Skill dmg, Ability dmg, Ability low/average/high, Ability acc, Ability hits/misses, Total hits/misses, total Crits/noncrits, Acc%, last is cut off, i have the rest of that parse including WS averages which i can upload or PM on request. Most columns are truncated, i only screenshot parses i dont save them to file.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...arse-coded.jpg

And below Is the gear i was using during that PT, ring is flame(lol) but seeing as my parsed acc at that camp remains constant when adding another acc ring, and my haste is already capped from cata, its either that or jelly ring. WS setup is heca cap/feet, Onyx or Ares legs(depends), Warwolf belt, AF+1 hands, Soil gorget

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...avatar2new.jpg


As for other relics i have seen in action, the only Yoichi SAM/WAR soboro PT i have had was on Trolls(don't ask), needless to say he got absolutely destroyed, even by the Ridill WAR. Merited once with Bravura, it would not really be fair for me to comment on this party though, the guy had only just finished and was still playing around with different setups. I am most interested in seeing a parse of a really solid Ragnarok DRK vs other decked relic DDs. I have a couple more parses i can put up on request against a few other DDs and various jobs.

[Max™]

Parsing against others is very misleading to say the least.

I thought this was well known?

Can I parse my limbus runs now?

I'm certain I outdamaged the ebod/ridill War in there, course, I get the impression he got the gear on another job, and was very lightly merited.

Nevermind the tricks to tilt a parse in your favor (you know them, lining up on mobs, timing WSes right, simply paying better attention) which will turn a good parse into a wtfpwnedeverythingincludingjesusaurus parse.

Sam/War Namas does have that awesome bonus of not pulling hate though, does sound like it would be sickeningly good.

I believe the Rdm's MP is there for two things at birds, haste, and curing me.

Every time he casts cure and lets me soak damage while riding hasso, he's speeding up the party indirectly. Least, that's my take on it.

[Aragon of Odin]

For some reason can't really make the parse out, for skill low/avg/high all I see is 21/21.0/21.
I cap ACC on birds to, I've often thought about buying a Thunder ring to use and see if I'll crit a lil more on melee hits, not sure if added STR or added Dex would do better tho.

[Max™]

1.25 Dmg, 0.whatever% pDif vs .5~1% chance of boosting your pDif 1.0, and free, if not needed accuracy.

I prefer to TP in Dex over Str where it's an option.

[Aesctaa]

For some reason can't really make the parse out, for skill low/avg/high all I see is 21/21.0/21.
I cap ACC on birds to, I've often thought about buying a Thunder ring to use and see if I'll crit a lil more on melee hits, not sure if added STR or added Dex would do better tho.

Thats ability dmg, yeah most of the categories are useless or truncated, but like i say i only screenshot parses once then delete them, Only really total dmg, total %, and acc% are of any real use on that half of the parse.

And Max, the purpose of the parsing is to help answer the OPs question, if i had access to an Amano SAM to parse against consistently i would post that, instead you can take my parse as a form of context, all 3 DDs knew it was being parsed and each played accordingly. There is nothing misleading about that.

[Fcube]

I remember parsing with you a while back on birds, and you won by like 1%(?).
From what I remember, you won in TTL WS dmg, and I won in TTL melee dmg, but you ended up a lil ahead of me almost the whole time (gd kaiten!).

I'd parse again with you once I have a stable play time again, for your testing of course.

Edit: In the talk of souleater, I almost never use it outside of a zerg, but it probably woulda gave me the edge to win that parser. Oh well maybe next time!

Yeah was not much, about few percentages as I was using war sub at that time but when I discovered /drg sub, I find that nothing really come close. Even when I compared my own drk and sam parse, drk is behind.

[Max™]

If I could play all the roles in the party to the best of my ability, I'd claim the parse to be definitive, if everyone was appropriately geared, merited, same races, etc.

They're a nice guideline, but the real test would be to show two parses of the same setup, same camp, and the same outcome.

[Loziel]

I can you see saying as a general statment DRG > all for meriting on Birds, other then that you're wrong IMO. When you take away that 25% piercing bonus you get when at birds past experience has shown me that DRG isn't good at all and I would rate it amongst the lowest DD performers in things like Einhejar, Dyna, Kirin etc.

Most jobs have a pretty easy time acheiving a 6 hit build now a days, it's not anything special DRG has. As War/Sam it takes me Rajas, Brutal and Chiv or Ecphoria, which are all common pieces of gear most melee have access to.

I've parsed some very well geared DRG's at Kirin's, KV(Altho this is only a 30 sec fight) and meriting on Mamools, none of them would leave me to believe DRG is near the top of the DD chain.

Well then id have to say the Dragoons you have seen were either doing it wrong, didnt have Drakesbane or a combination of both. KV is a terrible example because its a 30 second thing, my statement was for Sustained DOT fights KV isnt one of those. To say it is among the lowest DD performers it sounds like your in a timewarp. You make it sound like apart from Colibri camp, Drg Suffer a 25% penalty everywhere. D94-95 492 delay is not to be sniffed at, D100 if we are talking Relic.
A Decked Drakesbane Drg at events where /Sam is acceptable such as Merits Ein, Dyna, Kirin Burn etc it is now very very powerful. Times have changed and if your not fighting high defence HNM Drakesbane wrecks the shop. Combine that with Easy to Cap Accuracy, Hasso, Merited Jump Timers, Haste EQ, 6 hit setup and a decent amount of Double Attack available and you have a wrecking ball.

[Kyo]

DRG should be added to the mix also. Gungnir with Drakesbane is on par, though they have fewer haste options,

DRG has access to the same haste gear as drk.

[ringthree]

DRG has access to the same haste gear as drk.

That was in reference to SAM/DRG, which has Wyvern earring as an option.

[Jackyl]

Parsing against others is very misleading to say the least.

^

Parsing in meripo (esp. at colibri), and deciding who is the 'best DD' by such parses is... lame.

I think it would be more ideal to measure a DD by dmg/hr@camp. Even this would depend highly on your support obviously; so you'll just have to find good support when you go meripo to try to max out your dmg/hr.

Isn't there a parser that can do dmg/time?

[Fcube]

^

Parsing in meripo (esp. at colibri), and deciding who is the 'best DD' by such parses is... lame.

I think it would be more ideal to measure a DD by dmg/hr@camp. Even this would depend highly on your support obviously; so you'll just have to find good support when you go meripo to try to max out your dmg/hr.

Isn't there a parser that can do dmg/time?

Yeah I agree, but it does gives you a general idea where you stand. I definately like to parse with myself but that is not possible lol I try to compare parse in regards to myself only but that is usualy hard to obtain accurate information.