PLD/RDM based primarily on shield?

[Tsuko_Asura]

So, in the past month or two(I believe?) PLD/RDM has become increasingly popular. Now, at first it was my understanding that it was only practiced by those with Aegis. Though, I've noticed people without it trying it as well. Admittedly, even when I first heard of people doing this, I never really understood how it was even remotely optimal, what with bleeding large amounts of enmity in the grand scheme of things, as apposed to being /NIN and rarely being physically hit. But hey, these claims were made by extremely experienced Paladins, so I just took their word for it and shrugged it off.

Anywho, what with having leveled /PLD on my RDM for tanking much more minor things that don't necessarily hit hard(talking in the ~20-40/hit range), I'm still left with a lack of understanding of how this could possibly work on things of high caliber than what I'm using it for. I hold hate just fine, and it gets the job done, but I don't see how this could be at all viable on things with much higher base damage.

I guess what my question is, does the entire practice hinge on the superior shielding capabilities of a Paladin? Or an Aegis, for that matter? Is it possible to make this work for jobs like RDM? If it doesn't, I'm at a loss for how this is possible, because on a hit-per-hit basis, I take significantly less damage than Paladins I've interacted with, unless they're in Hundred-Shield mode because of Reprisal.

[Asdrabael]

Its basically a suped of pld/war when you use it on weaker hnms like ixion or fafnir, and is a nice change from the usual /nin. It has much higher hate potential, and some HNMs don't hit all that particularly hard like Ixion, or spend more time doing magic damage that you just need higher hate like Ouryu.

ninja sub is nice, but its not really needed on -all- hnms, just the ones that hit really really hard.

[Caerloc]

Alot of shells use it on stuff like Tiamat to, or some shells use /war. We use /rdm for Tiamat to, well depending on which PLD comes.

[Tsuko_Asura]

But I mean, is it for the sake of switching things up, or is it actually more effective? I suppose I just don't see how Blind makes up for the amount of CE you're bleeding from being smacked around, especially when you consider that you'd have to rely on MP-inefficient spells like Dispel to regain said CE.

I'm hardly an expert on enmity, but it just doesn't make sense to me O_o;

[[Cookies]]

I haven't used much but PLD/RDM is waaaaaay superior to /NIN in terms of hate gain. It's quite ridiculous actually. And yes, it more than makes up for the enmity loss. Obviously the better your support the more you can spam. If you have a Gjallarhorn BRD you can literally just chain spam crap. I usually go Flash > Dispel > Blind > Dispel > Sleep > Dispel > Bind > Dispel and then repeat depending on timers.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Sub-question: How much are you being hit for on average, exactly? God knows your midget ass is at a major disadvantage in regards to this style of tanking.

[Caerloc]

I haven't used much but PLD/RDM is waaaaaay superior to /NIN in terms of hate gain. It's quite ridiculous actually. And yes, it more than makes up for the enmity loss. Obviously the better your support the more you can spam. If you have a Gjallarhorn BRD you can literally just chain spam crap. I usually go Flash > Dispel > Blind > Dispel > Sleep > Dispel > Bind > Dispel and then repeat depending on timers.

Skip the sleep lol, use blind again or something. You really only need to go Flash -> blind -> dispel -> blind -> dispel all the way untill your flashtimer is back up. At capped haste blind and dispel are both on a 5 second timer.

[Caerloc]

Sub-question: How much are you being hit for on average, exactly? God knows your midget ass is at a major disadvantage in regards to this style of tanking.

Thats totally gear-dependant. But you can get blocked normal hits down to 0, unblocked to 100-150-ish, blocked crits to 50-ish and unblocked crits to about 300. Thats with top-off the line gear tho. Probably shouldnt use PLD/RDM for alot of things unless you have the gear to back it up. Generally its good for fast-hitting/shadow-wiping mobs that you wont keep shadows up for anyways.

[Talint]

But I mean, is it for the sake of switching things up, or is it actually more effective? I suppose I just don't see how Blind makes up for the amount of CE you're bleeding from being smacked around, especially when you consider that you'd have to rely on MP-inefficient spells like Dispel to regain said CE.

I'm hardly an expert on enmity, but it just doesn't make sense to me O_o;

I only /RDM when it's more or less pointless to be /NIN. Things like Alexander and Ouryu, where having shadows provides no/minimal benefit, but you still need to keep hate. The speed at which /RDM can generate enmity is surprising.

That having been said, if you're able to generate MP at a very fast rate (Commodore COR, GjallarBRD, Refresh, Ares Body, Aspir Samba II, whatever you're getting), then you'll probably want more ways to generate hate since you can probably spam Cure III/IV fast, and throwing enfeebles will get you to the enmity cap that much faster. Even then, I don't think non-Aegis PLDs do this.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Thats totally gear-dependant. But you can get blocked normal hits down to 0, unblocked to 100-150-ish, blocked crits to 50-ish and unblocked crits to about 300. Thats with top-off the line gear tho. Probably shouldnt use PLD/RDM for alot of things unless you have the gear to back it up. Generally its good for fast-hitting/shadow-wiping mobs that you wont keep shadows up for anyways.

I get the closing shpeal, that's never escaped my understanding. Its what above that supports my predisposition to believe that this isn't as amazing as its made out to be. 100-150 a hit is a lot of CE lost, unless you have absurdly high HP.

[Caerloc]

Well, tiamat would be one of the more hardhitting mobs to tho, alot of mobs is alot weaker. But Tiamat doesnt hit fast at all... He's so slow you can fall asleep between hits.. And blockrate is what, 60-70%? And those mostly hit for zero. And Blind is 5 mp 640 VE and dispel is like 25 mp 320 CE & VE, both on a 5 second recast. And you get +10 Mdb.

[Akanei]

What the hell are you gearing up in to get critical hits down to 300 unblocked. <_< Dring+Jelly can't bring it that far down.

[Caerloc]

D.ring, jelly, hauteclaire, valhalla, phalanx2

[Ferien]

In addition to what everyone else has said, it's also extremely powerful for tanking large groups of mobs, such as in Dynamis or Einherjar. Barspells are 300 VE per cast, are virtually free (the MP cost is refreshed in the time it takes to cast), can be chain-cast with or without Haste, and are self-target so they affect all mobs with hate on you.

They're not as effective against single mobs, but that's what Blind and Dispel are for.

[Redshift]

Thats totally gear-dependant. But you can get blocked normal hits down to 0, unblocked to 100-150-ish, blocked crits to 50-ish and unblocked crits to about 300.

poidh

[Kurt Cobain]

seriously, you're talking out of your ass with those numbers, see: terras staff, dring, jelly ring, phalanx2, taco, sub 20% tiamat hits for double that. don't give me your qcdn™ copout and say "oh, well they're geared for /RDM", poidh. put up or shut up

[Tekki]

Id like to see some SS for some of this bullshit i smell, Aegis or no Aegis

[Faxanadu]

To the OP, PLD/RDM is the optimal choice for tanking JoL. Its a fight where you should never take a single physical hit because your standing out of melee range while it only casts spells on you. All you are doing is spamming sleep/dispell/flash/blind/bar spells, keeping stoneskin up and curing what little dmg you take from aga's. RDM/PLD is a very good co-tank with PLD/RDM on this fight, just watch out for Astral Flow.

I have also used it on sky gods/pop nms and the Zeni version of Cerb. Anything a pld/war can tank, a pld/rdm can tank better the majority of the time. I prefer /war in dynimas, but im the main caller/main tank for my LS.


side note: pld/rdm is the 3rd best ballista job. (behind blu and rdm of course)

[richardd]

seriously, you're talking out of your ass with those numbers, see: terras staff, dring, jelly ring, phalanx2, taco, sub 20% tiamat hits for double that. don't give me your qcdn™ copout and say "oh, well they're geared for /RDM", poidh. put up or shut up

maybe he meant from the higher % where his attack is kinda weak. This is from a nin/drk perspective with -40% in his mighty strikes mode. I didnt have a phalanx with these hits as well.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4...6070133ri6.png

but when it gets lower, his attack rises drastically. Idc if your rukenshin, any tank is gonna get his for 400+ unblocked crits than lol.

edit: yeah, your right. its sub 20%!

[[Cookies]]

Sub-question: How much are you being hit for on average, exactly? God knows your midget ass is at a major disadvantage in regards to this style of tanking.

Last time I did Sea, IIRC I was getting hit for around 150-250ish? I did Sky farming last night and Zipacna only hits for around 20-40 on shield blocks. I can see RDM/PLD being able to tank stuff like this with no problem assuming your DDs aren't crazy.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9...5182151rb1.jpg

Skip the sleep lol, use blind again or something. You really only need to go Flash -> blind -> dispel -> blind -> dispel all the way untill your flashtimer is back up. At capped haste blind and dispel are both on a 5 second timer.

Thanks for the tip, i'll keep that in mind in future.