Teach me Paladin?

[Eaglestrike]

kings is > 3% crit and imp HoJ. what do you have those for anyway? threat/minimal dps increase really shouldn't be an issue, and hoj is only useful for trash. Why waste talents for that especially as a MT?

Likewise Kings is wasted as if my raid needs Kings (and if anyone in a raid needs Kings, it's often the MT, which I am) we bring a ret paladin capable of casting Kings. If an 11pt talent comes I'll quickly take 1 point out of Imp HoJ, and may put the final 2 into Divine Guardian, but it's too situational, but having my backup interrupt ready for Kel'thuzad has been nice so far.

And just last night on KT 10-man the retnubadin died but the raid kept +3% crit on the boss since I have that talent. And I do over 2k dps in raids so I like having my own personal 3% crit to keep boosting that up. I'm considering dropping PoJ, to max Conviction, but I'm waiting for the patch first most likely. Run speed is a nice perk.

For Glyphs I currently use Judgement, Exorcism and Righteous defense. I'll probably switch RD to the seal of corruption glyph whenever I can find it (and I get a 2nd taunt). Sense undead for minor is the only one that currently matters much atm.

[Thelam]

Wait a second, we can stun KT with HoJ?!?

[Tonko]

This one looks pretty solid. Why no Kings though? I guess it's not that necessary, but it's always fun to have around.

As a prot pally you have points that are better spent elsewhere. You're never going to not want Sanctuary on yourself, and an extra 3% damage reduction for the raid is great. BoK is a ret talent now, pure and simple. They have more than enough points to take every talent that enhances their DPS, from any tree attainable, and still have points left over for BoK.

I'm currently using Imp. Righteous Defense, Imp. Judgement Damage, and Imp. Spiritual Attunement for major gylphs, for minor highly suggest getting Sense Undead, the other two don't matter really, we have pretty bad minor glyphs =/.

Imp Righteous Defence: Taunts getting resisted happens almost never.
Inp. Judgement: Another 10% on a Judgement that does 800 damage isn't that great. Leave it to the ret pallies.
Imp Spiritual Attunement: Do you EVER have mana problems? If you do, you're doing it wrong.

My glyphs:
Turn evil: Instant cast = win. Absolutely great in PvP against Warlocks or Unholy DKs. Great while mining or as emergency CC. Has good raid utility too.
Exorcism: Another interrupt on a 15 second cooldown is great against bosses that can be interrupted.
Consecrate: Less mana for more hate, and frees up another GCD and a fourth, which is always nice.

Wait a second, we can stun KT with HoJ?!?

Duh. His frostbolts are interruptable, and HoJ has an interrupt mechanic in addition to the stun, so stun immune mobs can be interrupted. Exorcism with the glyph works too. I think Arcane Torrent will stop them as well, but can't recall for sure. Usually too busy looking at my feet to notice.

[Plow]

Consecrate: Less mana for more hate, and frees up another GCD and a fourth, which is always nice.

I promise you you'll wish you didn't have that when you start doing CoT timed runs.


It also screws with your rotation on bosses, but that part really doesn't mean shit atm thanks to the sor bug.



Anyway, basic prot build:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Last 5 points can be kings, or benediction, or imp bom + imp hoj, or some in divine guardian, or whatever. Really doesn't matter much. When sor bug gets fixed, seals of the pure may end up somewhat worthwhile.

But if you're skipping any of the points there, you're missing something fairly important. Stoicism can be worked without, but I dunno why you'd want to unless you really don't think you need it and want imp hoj for more interrupts and the last 5 spent in kings.


As far as glyphs, the only one that's "really good" for paladin tanking is Seal of Vengeance. Consecrate limits your ability to move around while tanking large aoe groups, righteous defense is not needed (essentially only because there's nothing where you really switch tanks atm, there's just not a time in WotLK in which the tanks *must* be hit capped), avenger's shield glyph is just plain stupid, etc. etc.

IMO if you're focused on tanking use SoV major, Detect Undead minor, and fill in the rest with whatever the hell you want. I'm not even using those 2 anymore actually. My gear has gotten to the point where I'm using seal of wisdom for raid trash and even some 10 man naxx bosses.

Shit's just too easy for any of the ridiculously small gains to really be of any importance.

[Tonko]

I promise you you'll wish you didn't have that when you start doing CoT timed runs.

Start doing timed runs. That's cute. I've done the timed event with plenty of time to spare since week 2 of Wrath being out, thanks for the warning though. You don't move the trash packs there, there's no reason to cast consecrate more often.

It also screws with your rotation on bosses, but that part really doesn't mean shit atm thanks to the sor bug.

With pally hate mechanics being as they are, a rotation isn't necessary. I've done the 69696 rotation, and it's just not needed to keep solid hate. I don't use rank1 SotR, it's an exploit and it's not needed to be king of hate.

As far as glyphs, the only one that's "really good" for paladin tanking is Seal of Vengeance. Consecrate limits your ability to move around while tanking large aoe groups,

Which other than the very start of Malygos phase 2, is when exactly? I can't reall any point where you move around while tanking large aoe groups. 10 expertise is so minimal, it's not worth the glyph spot.

righteous defense is not needed (essentially only because there's nothing where you really switch tanks atm,

4 Horseman, Archavon, and Gluth all require tank switching. It's not a needed glyph because taunt has only ever failed me once out of my entire tanking career. (I've tanked all of BC & LK content. Every last fight) I still think it was a glitch or someone taunted offa me as soon as I taunted, but with us getting a 2nd taunt soon, it's not an issue at all.

[Plow]

Start doing timed runs. That's cute. I've done the timed event with plenty of time to spare since week 2 of Wrath being out, thanks for the warning though. You don't move the trash packs there, there's no reason to cast consecrate more often.

Excuse me for assuming that if you don't realize what a pain in the ass having to wait 10 seconds before you can consecrate again you probably hadn't been doing it.

I guess it's unreasonable for me to expect you to think things through when responding to me, though.

With pally hate mechanics being as they are, a rotation isn't necessary. I've done the 69696 rotation, and it's just not needed to keep solid hate. I don't use rank1 SotR, it's an exploit and it's not needed to be king of hate.

You're telling me you actively choose to avoid playing to your potential? Using the bug or not, ignoring rotation is flat idiotic. That's what bad players do.

Which other than the very start of Malygos phase 2, is when exactly? I can't reall any point where you move around while tanking large aoe groups.

CoT is the main one for now, Occulus is another, Azjol, gluth, KT if you want achievement, there's a million places and reasons to be moving quickly while aoe'ing.

10 expertise is so minimal, it's not worth the glyph spot.

It is, bar none, the best pally tank glyph. Period. There is no argument, nothing surpasses it in any way, shape or form.

The fact that all our glyphs suck is an entirely different issue.


edit: By the way, if you didn't know, it's 10 expertise, not 10 expertise rating. It's just short of 40 expertise rating.

4 Horseman, Archavon, and Gluth all require tank switching. It's not a needed glyph because taunt has only ever failed me once out of my entire tanking career. (I've tanked all of BC & LK content. Every last fight) I still think it was a glitch or someone taunted offa me as soon as I taunted, but with us getting a 2nd taunt soon, it's not an issue at all.

I forgot Archavon, horsemen and gluth are not "if taunt fails you're fucked instantly," nalorakk style, and of course none of em really are when you have bop/salv anyway. If your taunt has never failed and you're not hit capped it's pure luck, grats.

Retarded-ass argument on why it's not needed when we're both saying it's not needed, but hey if you want to argue just for the sake of arguing just because it's me that's cool.

[Eanae]

I promise you you'll wish you didn't have that when you start doing CoT timed runs.


It also screws with your rotation on bosses, but that part really doesn't mean shit atm thanks to the sor bug.



Anyway, basic prot build:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Last 5 points can be kings, or benediction, or imp bom + imp hoj, or some in divine guardian, or whatever. Really doesn't matter much. When sor bug gets fixed, seals of the pure may end up somewhat worthwhile.

But if you're skipping any of the points there, you're missing something fairly important. Stoicism can be worked without, but I dunno why you'd want to unless you really don't think you need it and want imp hoj for more interrupts and the last 5 spent in kings.


As far as glyphs, the only one that's "really good" for paladin tanking is Seal of Vengeance. Consecrate limits your ability to move around while tanking large aoe groups, righteous defense is not needed (essentially only because there's nothing where you really switch tanks atm, there's just not a time in WotLK in which the tanks *must* be hit capped), avenger's shield glyph is just plain stupid, etc. etc.

IMO if you're focused on tanking use SoV major, Detect Undead minor, and fill in the rest with whatever the hell you want. I'm not even using those 2 anymore actually. My gear has gotten to the point where I'm using seal of wisdom for raid trash and even some 10 man naxx bosses.

Shit's just too easy for any of the ridiculously small gains to really be of any importance.

You'd really give up reckoning for pursuit of justice and heart of the crusader? Personally, I much enjoy reckoning. Judgements of the just can't be too bad either for slowing down incoming damage...

[Plow]

You'd really give up reckoning for pursuit of justice and heart of the crusader? Personally, I much enjoy reckoning. Judgements of the just can't be too bad either for slowing down incoming damage...

Reckoning is meh to bad, the extra damage from potential parries outweighs the threat advantage if you're not expertise capped, and the extra swings aren't much good with vengeance being the damage seal of choice and wisdom being retardedly overpowered and keeping you at 100% mana at all times when you need to use it anyway. It's also still retardedly set up so that it gets worse and worse the better your gear gets.

JotJ, unfortunately, doesn't work on anything it matters on.

PoJ is also incredibly amazing, especially with the free weapon chain it adds now.


edit: and yeah heart is just there to get to poj, if you raid with a ret or a holy that has it and keeps light up or whatever anyway, might or benediction could be fine, I personally stick with heart because I don't run with rets all that much.

[Eaglestrike]

Judgments of the Just works on everything...it just doesn't stack with Thunderclap/ImprovedIcyTouch/Infected wounds. But there are still times when you won't have those on a boss (Sartharion with drakes for instance) so I can't see myself dropping it.

I haven't had reckoning since early in my 70 career. While I'd like for it to come back, the threat increase with SoV is too minimal. If it was somehow fixed to be potent I'd put 3 into it instead of improved HoJ.

[Plow]

Judgments of the Just works on everything...it just doesn't stack with Thunderclap/ImprovedIcyTouch/Infected wounds. But there are still times when you won't have those on a boss (Sartharion with drakes for instance) so I can't see myself dropping it.

mmmm dammit ok, apparently you're right, the places I'd discussed it had come to the conclusion that it wasn't doing anything on heroic bosses or above, and the only time I thought I noticed a difference was on drakkari collosus. That pisses me off that we were wrong cuz I've been without it most of the time since the first few days at 80 lol.

so, yeah, jotj is a must have then

[Eanae]

Keep in mind Shue is in the mid 40's (I'm 45 as well), so being parried isn't exactly a big deal at the moment. With enough expertise rating (which will come in gear eventually) would you suppose reckoning would become more viable?

[Eaglestrike]

Reckoning is entirely fine while leveling, especially with some good AP and high DPS weapon which is how you should gear now.

[Eanae]

The World of Warcraft Armory

I've been primarily leveling via instances lately. They're the most fun I have while on Paladin. Seems my tanking instincts from FFXI are taking over me.

Plus I figure if I want to play Ret I'll just level a DK. =/

[Shuemue]

The World of Warcraft Armory

Any feedback appreciated regarding gear/talents

[Eaglestrike]

I'd say the best spec atm would be: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...h=000000000000

And as you level go:
Combat expertise 3/3 (threat/survival)
Redoubt 2/3 (survival)
Avenger's shield 1/1 and Touched by the Light 3/3 (either order is fine) (threat/pulling)
Redoubt 3/3 (survival)
Shield of the Templar 3/3 (survival/threat)
Guarded by the light 2/2 or +2 in Ardent Defender. (survival/mana)
Hammer of the righteous. (win)
Finish off Guarded by the light / ardent defender.
Deflection 5/5 (survival)
1 point into improved judgment
Heart of the crusader 3/3 + 1 point into benediction or improved BoM (dps increase/utility)
Pursuit of Justice 2/2 (faster movement = faster leveling)
Conviction 5/5 (crits are fun!) or Seals of the Pure, doesn't really matter.

Then you're 80 and respec into something like what I have, with improved devotion aura and JotJ.

[Tonko]

CoT is the main one for now, Occulus is another, Azjol, gluth, KT if you want achievement, there's a million places and reasons to be moving quickly while aoe'ing.

Occulus is done primarily on drakes, and there's zero places in there where you have to AoE tank and move.

Gluth is not an AoE & Move fight. On 10 man, all the zonbies come from the center grate. On 25, the superior strat is to have Hunters & Mages bring you the zombies from the other two grats and you AoE tank them all at the center one untill Devastate, when you Holy Wrath stunning them all.

Azjol nerub does not require moving & AoE tanking at all, very minimal trash packs in there.

KT? Kel'Thuzad? You stand in the middle and the mobs come to you. Skeletons are taken care of by a hunter solo as they approach, you don't tank the banshees, and the aboms come slow enough that you can tank them one at a time.

If there's a million places and reasons to be tanking & moving quickly, why can't you name more than 1? And even CoT is debatable. You ignore the non elite mobs as you run from wave to wave. Tanking & running with a wave is stupid, as you don't know where the next one will spawn. The trash packs later after Crono Lord can be handled easily with a 10 second consecrate, as you have Exorcism & Avenger's Shield to all pull the elite mobs to you from a distance, and plenty of other tools to keep hate while moving.

edit: By the way, if you didn't know, it's 10 expertise, not 10 expertise rating. It's just short of 40 expertise rating.

Yes, because our white damage is oh so critical to keeping hate. We get plenty of hit rating & expertise on the currently itemized plate tanking gear that's available now. Expertise is a Warrior DK & Druid stat.

You're telling me you actively choose to avoid playing to your potential? Using the bug or not, ignoring rotation is flat idiotic. That's what bad players do.

I use my own rotation, I never said I didn't use one. The consecrate glyph frees up a GCD and allows more hate for less GCDs. And what is the difference between having 100k hate over the next highest person, versus 80k?

It is, bar none, the best pally tank glyph. Period. There is no argument, nothing surpasses it in any way, shape or form.

In your opinion, which is not fact. And other glyphs surpass it in utility & usefulness. 40 expertise rating is superfluous to a pally tank.

[Norellicus]

The World of Warcraft Armory

Any feedback appreciated regarding gear/talents

Get thee to a repairman, your shit's either broke or almost broke

Edit: Tonko, rather than just being a pain, you could offer up some alternative suggestions on the glyphs, since you seem to think there are better ones. I'm looking over the list now and it seems like there really aren't very good alternatives. Expertise = less parries = less incoming boss damage (which is usually where you'd be using SoV anyway, no?), so what exactly is the problem here? What would you put in its place?

Seems like the best you could do for tanking glyphs would be Spiritual Attunement, Righteous Defense, and SoV. The others are pretty damn situational while those three apply pretty globally to 98% of what you do as a tank.

[Tonko]

Edit: Tonko, rather than just being a pain, you could offer up some alternative suggestions on the glyphs, since you seem to think there are better ones. I'm looking over the list now and it seems like there really aren't very good alternatives. Expertise = less parries = less incoming boss damage (which is usually where you'd be using SoV anyway, no?), so what exactly is the problem here? What would you put in its place.

I already did, read the thread before smarting off.

[Plow]

Occulus is done primarily on drakes, and there's zero places in there where you have to AoE tank and move.

Except the fucking entrance to the instance where the first 5 minutes are all aoe ranged packs... yeah, consecrate totally useless there.

Also useless on the, oh, just EVERY FUCKING FIGHT where you're not on a drake.

Suddenly I have the feeling you're lying about what you have and haven't done.

Gluth is not an AoE & Move fight. On 10 man, all the zonbies come from the center grate. On 25, the superior strat is to have Hunters & Mages bring you the zombies from the other two grats and you AoE tank them all at the center one untill Devastate, when you Holy Wrath stunning them all.

Why the fuck would you stand there and eat damage when you don't have to?

Azjol nerub does not require moving & AoE tanking at all, very minimal trash packs in there.

Yeah because the adds all come from the exact same spot...

Lemme guess, you stand there and eat pounds like a fucktard too?

KT? Kel'Thuzad? You stand in the middle and the mobs come to you. Skeletons are taken care of by a hunter solo as they approach, you don't tank the banshees, and the aboms come slow enough that you can tank them one at a time.

The achievement. Hence why I said "If you want the achievement."

If there's a million places and reasons to be tanking & moving quickly, why can't you name more than 1? And even CoT is debatable. You ignore the non elite mobs as you run from wave to wave. Tanking & running with a wave is stupid, as you don't know where the next one will spawn. The trash packs later after Crono Lord can be handled easily with a 10 second consecrate, as you have Exorcism & Avenger's Shield to all pull the elite mobs to you from a distance, and plenty of other tools to keep hate while moving.

If you get shitty spawn locations on the first half, the *ONLY* way you're getting through the gauntlet in time is if you take the first half all at once, and the 2nd half all at once. You may not realize it, hell, maybe you're playing with the same people all the time and they've learned to cover your weaknesses. But having to wait an extra 2 seconds to consecrate is huge.


I just named like half the instances in WotLK and where it's extremely important to be able to move when tanking. The fact you either flat don't know what you're talking about, or are actually choosing to make yourself look like you don't in order to try to win an argument, doesn't mean the places don't exist.

Yes, because our white damage is oh so critical to keeping hate. We get plenty of hit rating & expertise on the currently itemized plate tanking gear that's available now. Expertise is a Warrior DK & Druid stat.

It's about a flat out 2.5% increase in *JUST* HotR damage alone. If that was the ONLY thing it did, it would still be, far and away, the best paladin tanking glyph.

Not to mention, our white damage is 180%ish threat now, it keeps seals up, and it prevents parry-gibbing.

But hey, I'm sure you know better than every other decent paladin tank in the world.

Protip: check my last post before this one, it's a great example of how to realize and admit when you're wrong. Being able to do that will make you one hell of a lot better player.

I use my own rotation, I never said I didn't use one. The consecrate glyph frees up a GCD and allows more hate for less GCDs. And what is the difference between having 100k hate over the next highest person, versus 80k?

Top DPS are doing 4-5x as much dps as a prot paladin. The *only* ability a paladin has which has extra threat beyond the natural 280% with RF is SoR.

So, first off, it's flat out *NOT* more hate for less gcd's, secondly, if you're not pushing the max threat you're capable of, and not losing hate, your best dps are failing.

The only excuse for not using a proper rotation is using the bug to cover the threat gap while using fully imp judgement every time it's up for maximum libram uptime.

Anything else is allakazham shit.

In your opinion, which is not fact. And other glyphs surpass it in utility & usefulness. 40 expertise rating is superfluous to a pally tank.

No. You're wrong. Just because you're arguing with me doesn't take out every bit of math and theorycrafting every other paladin has done.

p.s. it's also the only paladin glyph which offers any kind of incoming damage reduction of any sort.

[Plow]

Get thee to a repairman, your shit's either broke or almost broke

Edit: Tonko, rather than just being a pain, you could offer up some alternative suggestions on the glyphs, since you seem to think there are better ones. I'm looking over the list now and it seems like there really aren't very good alternatives. Expertise = less parries = less incoming boss damage (which is usually where you'd be using SoV anyway, no?), so what exactly is the problem here? What would you put in its place?

Seems like the best you could do for tanking glyphs would be Spiritual Attunement, Righteous Defense, and SoV. The others are pretty damn situational while those three apply pretty globally to 98% of what you do as a tank.

Those are good choices, although RD is very situation atm too, and spiritual attunement is generally unnecessary.

Personally, when dual specs come out and I can glyph for full out tanking in one of the setups, I'll go with SoV, Exorcism, and probably RD, depending on how the new taunt is working.

For minors, Sense Undead, Wise, and the other doesn't matter much.