Random Question Thread

[Tricen]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF, guess I need to start playin wround with it then :>. Although, I'm sure the dudes doing 20k+ are specced into the AoE via glyphs and what not.

[Siniroth]

Probably not a bad idea, assuming all they do is dps, have excess gold, and have no interest in alternative overall spec choices

[Blarg]

I've never done a toc with a DK doing so much dps that would mean that they used AOE. With single target dps being the only real important thing in getting the first few guys down without taking losses it seems useless to aoe especially with sheep being used and other CC that breaks on dmg.

[Plow]

non heroic fc is stupid easy just because their hp is sooo low, good guilds can handle it without much CC (not to mention 'resil will fix it')

but yeah a DK with 4t9 and a proper togc anub setup is just going to get retarded on FC normal meters

[Tricen]

My guild doesn't do ToC25 anymore, so I'd have to do it in a pug, QQ.

[Lordshin]

Okay a couple questions about ret pally:

I have 50 Frost badges atm and My t10 shoulders and hands... should i save up for the head piece or get something else for now? My armory link is in my sig. (Ellyn)

and which is the best ret pally ring from ashen verdict? i got a STR ring because someone in my guild said it was good but im not sure

[Tricen]

I think the agi is better for pally (exalted at least). As for the 4pc, the 4pc is about a 3% dps increase, so it's really at your discretion. The war token trinket it supposed to be pretty good for ret pallys once they get 2pc iirc.

[Onorgul]

So yesterday I decided to heal some Heroics because I was trying out some changes I made (e.g., switching to Grid). I ended up with a heavily-geared Paladin tank who, predictably, made Halls of Lightning a bit of a joke.

Sort of.

He was OOM constantly. Except for one or two times that Discipline instincts took over, I opted not to put Power Word: Shield on him. Grace helps a little bit, but he was taking so little damage at times that it wasn't a sure thing he'd burn through the bubble, or so it seemed. So I mostly just tried to sneak in a heal whenever I could. Halfway through, he starts complaining about being OOM and I really didn't know what to tell him, since the last time I'd thrown a bubble on him was for the slag gauntlet.

I know that Prot Paladins gain mana when healed, or at least, they should do unless they're stupid and skip Spiritual Attunement. But, seriously, dude was simply not taking any damage. Shouldn't Divine Plea have helped or something? 'cause with him having no mana, he couldn't hold aggro off the similarly over-geared Warlock (seriously, Blizz, give Warlocks a real threat reduction/dump), which meant I was pouring my heals down her throat while the Paladin stood there. I felt like an idiot, but was this actually my fault? This is the first time I've ever seen this problem, but it's also the first time I can recall having a Paladin tank with what appears to be capped or nearly-capped avoidance.

[Eaglestrike]

So yesterday I decided to heal some Heroics because I was trying out some changes I made (e.g., switching to Grid). I ended up with a heavily-geared Paladin tank who, predictably, made Halls of Lightning a bit of a joke.

Sort of.

He was OOM constantly. Except for one or two times that Discipline instincts took over, I opted not to put Power Word: Shield on him. Grace helps a little bit, but he was taking so little damage at times that it wasn't a sure thing he'd burn through the bubble, or so it seemed. So I mostly just tried to sneak in a heal whenever I could. Halfway through, he starts complaining about being OOM and I really didn't know what to tell him, since the last time I'd thrown a bubble on him was for the slag gauntlet.

I know that Prot Paladins gain mana when healed, or at least, they should do unless they're stupid and skip Spiritual Attunement. But, seriously, dude was simply not taking any damage. Shouldn't Divine Plea have helped or something? 'cause with him having no mana, he couldn't hold aggro off the similarly over-geared Warlock (seriously, Blizz, give Warlocks a real threat reduction/dump), which meant I was pouring my heals down her throat while the Paladin stood there. I felt like an idiot, but was this actually my fault? This is the first time I've ever seen this problem, but it's also the first time I can recall having a Paladin tank with what appears to be capped or nearly-capped avoidance.

Honestly SA is pretty damn unimportant. The vast majority of a prot paladins mana return is from Divine Plea (should be 100% uptime) and blessing of sanc. That guy was failing at one or both of those. He was probably also throwing consecrate around like nobodies business when it costs as much mana to use as almost all the other abilities in a normal threat rotation (holy shield is 450ish, judge/hammer/shield are 260ish, consecrate is something like 1100).

Nothing a healer does effects my mana whatsoever. I've done the math on it, if a Disc priest is so geared they have a 7k PW:S a paladin spec'd normally loses a whole 240 mana per cast. That's less than one ability lost every 15s, that's nothing.

This is a big issue on the tanking forums these days, bad paladins QQing about mana. But that's what they are, bad. There's really no reason to go oom, just stop using consecrate and you have no issues. In PvP when I get no Blessing of Sanc and potentially no outside healing divine plea can maintain Hammer/shield/judge with AS every 30s forever. Add in Sanc and SA, maybe some replenishment, judgement of wisdom (never used in PvP) and some mana buffs and you get to toss out consecrates occasionally.

tl:dr - That paladin was bad.

[Kaylia]

Sound like me, I always bitch about mana in 5 men.

There is 3 way to get mana back on paladin
-Divine plea (25% every 15sec or something) that is refreshed everytime you land a hit
-Getting healed
-sanctuary (get 2% every time you dodge)
-chance to get 2% back every hit after judgement

When your party obliterate everything quickly, you will barely get anything from healing and judgement or sanctuary. Divine plea works, but with all the running around, its up time will be pretty bad (running to next pull often take longer than this, especially if you looted a corpse or something).

Because Avenger shield + consecration is like 20-25% of your mana pool at the start of the fight, you will end most pull with less mana than you started with.


[edit]

It's not like you can't tank...but if the dps hit a mobs that didn't get hit with HoR or something, thing might get a bit messy. However, with taunt, righteous defense, and dps gears, no one should ever die.

[Kaylia]

This is a big issue on the tanking forums these days, bad paladins QQing about mana. But that's what they are, bad. There's really no reason to go oom, just stop using consecrate and you have no issues. In PvP when I get no Blessing of Sanc and potentially no outside healing divine plea can maintain Hammer/shield/judge with AS every 30s forever. Add in Sanc and SA, maybe some replenishment, judgement of wisdom (never used in PvP) and some mana buffs and you get to toss out consecrates occasionally.

tl:dr - That paladin was bad.

Dropping consecration out of your rotation is a huge dps loss and you can't gather the mobs as efficiently without it (when there is more than 3-4 and shields/HoR bounce in a stupid way).


You will never be OOM to the point where your party will wipe, or where a runic mana potion won't fix thing, but you can reach a point where mana hurt your performance on the dps chart and make thing more messy.


Of course, since it only happen when you're destroying the monsters, it's not really a huge issue. It's just weird that the better you perform in heroic, the more mana issue you get.

[Eaglestrike]

Dropping consecration out of your rotation is a huge dps loss and you can't gather the mobs as efficiently without it (when there is more than 3-4 and shields/HoR bounce in a stupid way).


You will never be OOM to the point where your party will wipe, or where a runic mana potion won't fix thing, but you can reach a point where mana hurt your performance on the dps chart and make thing more messy.


Of course, since it only happen when you're destroying the monsters, it's not really a huge issue. It's just weird that the better you perform in heroic, the more mana issue you get.

Solutions:

1) Only pull 3-4 mobs at a time. This is easy as almost every heroic is setup with 3-4 mob pulls. Judge one, shield throw the other 3, you have initial threat. Drop a single consecrate if you can or just do a consecration-less rotation, taunt as necessary.

2) Pull two packs of mobs smartly. HoR one mob, HotR the other 3, keep running, judge a mob, HotR or AS the next 3. You now have threat on up to 8 mobs and you can consecrate. Very few groups will kill them before sanc returns enough mana to refund consecration and AS.

[Kaylia]

If I'm trying to optimize the time spent doing heroic, pulling 3-4 mobs is not an alternative.


You don't exactly run out of mana when pull are well positioned anyway. It always happen when there is a 45 seconds cooldown on your Divine Plea and the next 2 pulls require you to use Consecration and Avenger shield

[Plow]

If I'm trying to optimize the time spent doing heroic, pulling 3-4 mobs is not an alternative.


You don't exactly run out of mana when pull are well positioned anyway. It always happen when there is a 45 seconds cooldown on your Divine Plea and the next 2 pulls require you to use Consecration and Avenger shield

I pull 3-4 mobs at a time and I guarantee you're not doing heroics faster than me.

Because in addition to running with good dps I'm never below 5.5k on single target heroic bosses, let alone the retarded numbers on trash.

[Kaylia]

When the whole group can aoe 15 trash in one go, it's going to be faster than 4 or 5. I might lose 1-2k dmg not gearing myself as dps tank, but the other dps make up for it with aoe.


And heroic boss dies as fast a trash anyway, not to mention I could technically swap to dps gears before if i had a worthwhile one.

[Eaglestrike]

When the whole group can aoe 15 trash in one go, it's going to be faster than 4 or 5. I might lose 1-2k dmg not gearing myself as dps tank, but the other dps make up for it with aoe.

Depends on the group really. Warriors and ret paladins cap out most of their AOE at 3-4 targets. And they shine best against a group of just 3-4. For warlocks big groups are nice for the numbers but it's also annoying as I can go OOM mid-nukefest, though with a good group probably not possible in a heroic. Unholy DK's do better the bigger the group, but Blood DK's do better in smaller groups.

All sorts of things. Only casters truly shine in heavy heroic AOE situations. And since most mages are arcane these days they blow shit up faster one at a time anyway.

[Plow]

When the whole group can aoe 15 trash in one go, it's going to be faster than 4 or 5. I might lose 1-2k dmg not gearing myself as dps tank, but the other dps make up for it with aoe.


And heroic boss dies as fast a trash anyway, not to mention I could technically swap to dps gears before if i had a worthwhile one.

I don't think you understand, a low end of 5.5k on single target as a prot pally translates to anywhere from 8-12k depending on rng on *every single* trash pack.


Mages don't have time for full aoe rotation even, even just 1 flamestrike before the blizz can be wasteful.

In the time it takes you to run to the next pack, I've already killed the previous one.


I'm not saying all this to sound superior, either, I'm just trying to point out that done right, pulling 3-4 mobs can absolutely be every bit as fast as pulling 3-4 packs. And if you're in dps gear, you're not going to be running out of mana/rage cuz you're getting smacked plenty... but you still probably have 10k hp and 10k armor over what we all started in 80 heroics with.

[Kaylia]

Can you post a 5 men overall data where you score 10k/sec on prot and link to your gears.


I don't want to doubt your number, but I rarely see well geared dps pull 10k, let alone 12k, so I'm having trouble to believe that a prot can get 10k/s out of any 4 mobs trash pack. I tried with my currents ret gear and was barely doing more than I was doing on prot (althought, ret my gear is terrible ~ilvl236).

[Plow]

I'll do one with recount running tomorrow. I never run it on pally cuz even with coms off it dc's me like mad. ><

armory showing tank gear atm

gear is:

t10 prot helm (for 2pc)
251 str/exp/crit neck
can't even remember what shoulders I'm using in it now >.>
264 ret cape
258 ret chest
245 ret bracers
t10 prot gloves
245 str/crit/exp belt
t9 legs (bv and hit)
relentless boots
258 Violent Temperament
245 "
DV
Mirror lol
251 dps axe, 2.6 speed
258 icehowl shield, str gem and titanium plating
SoV libram, or holy shield block libram if I have SoComm, which I pretty much never do.

The pants are str gemmed ap/crit enchanted, helm has str gem, rest is all str or str/crit gems, ap enchants etc.

Altogether it's about 5k ap unbuffed + 20% hammer dmg and I'm not even sure on SP, somewhere in 1.8k range would be a complete guess.

Triple 8k hammer crits before the seal procs are not uncommon.

It's rare for dps to keep up, or really even close on meters outside bosses.

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Hey all, this seemed like the most appropriate thread. I've been gone for 5-6 months so I'm not sure what readily available pieces of gear there are before ICC10.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...trom&cn=Windir

I have an idea on Helm, Rings and Weapons, but what do you guys suggest for Neck, Cape, Bracers, and Trinkets? Trying to think within i232-245, stuff I can pug with little worry.