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[[Cookies]]

I've done as much as 7k dps in VoA (possibly more with the right buffs) on my 232 geared hunter. It has around 400 arp. Personally, I think that Marks is better than Surv around 226-232 but really, it entirely depends on how much you'll need to move and whether or not you're good at auto-shooting on the move.

0.08% hit is about 3 hit rating so I wouldn't say that it's worth switching a gem for but i'm no expert on hunters.

[Boyiee]

Yeah gulk I'm sorry but Marks is equivalent if not more dps once you have a 232 weapon and 232+ gear... You don't need any more than 400arp before it becomes better than Surv. Maybe there has been some changes since you hit 80 on yours but that's just the way it is. Spreadsheet agrees as well as every hunter forum out there. You keep bringing up standing still and no movement, that favors surv alot more than marks, and fights with less movement are where surv will get the higher numbers because of sniper training. The number you are putting out with 800arp, that's pretty much all 251's and lots of 264's mixed in, probably around 5700-5800gs, and all arp gems - which is FAR from the case.

My hunter alt is 5500gs and only has 500 arp maybe, just got NES this week at least (mm still was better before nes for me). Dual specced surv/mm since for 10mans I'm replenishment, but any pug I can be marks. Marks is a joke to play it's so easy, and provides better numbers. It's almost impossible for me to have more arp at this gear level without gemming it, which without a real arp trinket is a dps loss or barely a gain at all. And 5500 is 5 251's, 6 264s.

I've done much higher numbers than you are randomly throwing out there with my low arp on the fights you've mentioned. There is a reason all the hunter forums agree with me on this. 7-8k dps on voa's, hopefully you are talking about voa10 cause that sounds about right for me as MM, not the same with surv. Don't even want to mention ICC, hunter is such a cheap class when it comes to dps vs. gearscore. Retarded how much dps a hunter can pull without great gear.

I don't see how hunter spreadsheet is telling you that gemming hit is a dps loss unless you have draenei enabled or something. Warrior spreadsheet even at 99% hit still tells me to drop an arp gem to come off hard cap and get that hit up. Your DPS may be 40000 on some fights but rng isn't your friend. I don't know, every top end hunter seems to be hit capped, and every high end player in every other guild. Just seems like you are the type of person that min/maxes their character, weird to not see you capped.

[Gulkeeva]

Yeah gulk I'm sorry but Marks is equivalent if not more dps once you have a 232 weapon and 232+ gear... You don't need any more than 400arp before it becomes better than Surv. Maybe there has been some changes since you hit 80 on yours but that's just the way it is. Spreadsheet agrees as well as every hunter forum out there. You keep bringing up standing still and no movement, that favors surv alot more than marks, and fights with less movement are where surv will get the higher numbers because of sniper training.

Its not all about the gear, its your arp. and I'm not sure what forums your talking about switching at 400, its certainly not one the bigger forums like EJ that recommends that. Sniper training only requires you to stand still for 6 sec to rebuff... 9 seconds of nonstop movement is enough to run an entire raid boss room back n forth twice almost.

My hunter alt is 5500gs and only has 450? arp maybe, just got NES this week at least. Dual specced surv/mm since for 10mans I'm replenishment, but any pug I can be marks. Marks is a joke to play it's so easy, and provides better numbers. It's almost impossible for me to have more arp at this gear level without gemming it, which without a real arp trinket is a dps loss or barely a gain at all. And 5500 is a few 264 pieces.

I've done much higher numbers than you are randomly throwing out there with my low arp on the fights you've mentioned. There is a reason all the hunter forums agree with me on this.

pics voa 10/25man showing character name etc etc then! the numbers I came up with doing pug voa's every week for months checking people.

I don't see how hunter spreadsheet is telling you that gemming hit is a dps loss unless you have draenei enabled or something. Warrior spreadsheet even at 99% hit still tells me to drop an arp gem to come off hard cap and get that hit up. Your DPS may be 40000 on some fights but rng isn't your friend, and it could probably be higher. I don't know, every top end hunter seems to be hit capped, and every high end player in every other guild. Just seems like you are the type of person that min/maxes their character, weird to not see you capped.

http://femaledwarf.com/ ?
http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t30710-w...s_spreadsheet/
ej spreadhseet ?

Hunters a bit different from warriors

Lowest dps loss gem would be 10agi / 10hit gem of about -15 dps
Really isn't anywhere you get a dps gain for covering .08% hit

There are a few the same way because there isn't really anything to cover that small gap and or the gear hasn't dropped to cover it. you can check wowmetersonline. If could down heroic LK wouldn't be hard to cover the small gap, I've saved gear for it.

[Boyiee]

-15dps > rng this is why all the top hunters are hit capped and use 10hit gems if needed. Especially in case of a tranq shot miss.

There is no way it takes 800 arp to switch to marks lol, it is straight out better than surv for non-fresh 80's.

here, this is from EJ since you don't seem to believe that ALL of the forums say this.

I believe that the consensus is that MM can be competitive with SV at any level of ArP however for this to be true you need a ranged weapon of ilvl 226+.
MM below ~350-400 ArP should use 3/3 Improved Arcane Shot and include arcane shot in rotation, over ~400 ArP arcane should be dropped in favour of steady shot. Steady shot itself will still hit for less than arcane but will add to the rolling DoT for piercing shots if it crits and thus is worth more damage overall.

There may be conflicting viewpoints regarding this but I have both read & experienced the above & found it to be more-or-less true for myself.

On a side-note, don't gem for ArP straight away, keep gemming Agi until your ArP from gear hits the ~600-800 mark (depending on how confident you are of upgrades in the near future)

Again, are you sure you weren't thinking of when to GEM arp over agi as mm? rather then when you can switch to MM over surv? I'll do a voa25 in a few but I assure you 7-8k with my 500ish arp is pretty easy to get.

[Gulkeeva]

-15dps > rng this is why all the top hunters are hit capped and use 10hit gems if needed.

There is no way it takes 800 arp to switch to marks lol, it is straight out better than surv for non-fresh 80's.

here, this is from EJ since you don't seem to believe that ALL of the forums say this.



Again, are you sure you weren't thinking of when to GEM arp over agi as mm? rather then when you can switch to MM over surv? I'll do a voa25 in a few but I assure you 7-8k with my 500ish arp is pretty easy to get.

I switched to MM a bit around 500 without arp gems... because of trap dancing with surv, you could do several hundred/thousand over MM still. at 800 it was basically the same dps ... with agi gems, I got on arp gems and obviously MM pulled ahead there.

guess it would more or less depend on player style/fights what does more dps, since spreadsheets only can give you perfect condition numbers, not actual fight numbers.

and just incase your wondering...!

the spec/gear I have is pretty much max dps.. if I got a heroic fal'nuwhatever LK bow.. then I can put on oathbinders 2 hander, change enchant to hit/crit, put agi/hit gem somewhere and change 1 talent point for 3/3 focused aim. Should put me about .02~.04% hit over the cap
but... can't do that till we down it!

if i get a heroic oathbinder first (although I think the druids getting it before me...) might be some issues with spec/talents ;/

p.s. I don't trust an article with no source!

[Boyiee]

I honestly haven't even checked your gear/spec because I knew where you were at in progression so just assumed everything heroic except LK weapons lol. Just going off of my experience in top100 and the friends that are still there.

My quote is from one of the later pages in the random q thread on EJ, think there is a few other sources in MM thread as well.

Like I said, your hunter was at this gear level a while ago, entirely possible for things to have changed now. Surv and MM are both comparable now in dps at the gear level I mentioned, but as you know once you are "able" to gem arp, MM starts raping. I'm not even at that point yet. It's just so much easier to play and I haven't had it beat out my surv once on a dummy, so it won't on most bosses.

[Boyiee]

Here is source, it was last page. There are a few other posts on it a couple pages earlier and in MM thread as I said - but here is the direct quote:


Source: http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t36777-h...#ixzz0pjbA05r1


As for VOA, here is toravon without a AP buff, and with trueshot aura not going up until 30% (dk dps became a tank) lol. 12% on orbs I skipped last set of orbs or 2 because of a low % Lust and most of the raid dead lmao, also a Koralon without lust ofcourse. Koralon I did have AP buff. Like I said I can't break 6k on target dummy as surv but I can as MM, since surv is my main spec for 10mans I'm 100% agi gemmed.

Spoiler: show

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...210_173630.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...210_174146.jpg

Honestly one of the worst pugs I've ever been in. On warrior I get around 12k with people competeing close behind, not sure how my hunter gets these shitty groups. By the way you mentioned not being able to change stuff till you down LK, hopefully none of your tranqs miss!

[Gulkeeva]

Don't get a tranq miss notice (or at least never seen one), you get a "Failed to remove debuffname" thing, you get it even at 100% ;/

I get one ever about 20-40 shots (so about once per 5-8 attempts)

From what I heard, you need to be at the spell hit cap to have a "no fail" tranq shot, which would be alot of gear changing! Although that can just be a guess, overall i think its just blizzards rng cock block

[Boyiee]

Well yeah thats why if you are capped the only misses you will have are from the dispel resists.

[Gulkeeva]

Well yeah thats why if you are capped the only misses you will have are from the dispel resists.

Its not terrible % of shots missed.
Out of around 7000 shots fired at a boss (excluding sting shots because thats probably counting ticks also) only 4 shots missed.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...5233#damageout
with all bosses in icc heroic excluding trash/failed attempt bosses
(immune/absorb "misses" don't count!, mouse over the miss %'s for the breakdown of what the misses count as)

and yes hunter pet misses even at 100%+ hit rating still, blizz says its some form of bug that it shouldn't be happening, and should match the hunter in hit % but its waayy off.

anyway as I said above, its the optimal "best" you can have till your downing heroic LK and get gear off him

[Tricen]

Kind of a dumb question. If I have 80% ARP and there's sunder up on a boss, does that mean I have 100% arp, or do I have 80% of the bosses armor after the 20% is calculated. Example. Say boss has 20k armor. With sunder armor, they have 16k armor. Now if I have 80% arp and sunders up, does the boss have 0% armor to me or does my 80% factor into the 16k armor, so the boss has 3.2k armor. Does this make sense to anyone <_>

[[Cookies]]

Kind of a dumb question. If I have 80% ARP and there's sunder up on a boss, does that mean I have 100% arp, or do I have 80% of the bosses armor after the 20% is calculated. Example. Say boss has 20k armor. With sunder armor, they have 16k armor. Now if I have 80% arp and sunders up, does the boss have 0% armor to me or does my 80% factor into the 16k armor, so the boss has 3.2k armor. Does this make sense to anyone <_>

It's my understanding that debuffs reduce the initial armor a mob has before your personal arpen is calculated.

If the mob has 20k armor and you have 80% arpen with sunder up the resulting armor total is 3,200.

[Boyiee]

Kind of a dumb question. If I have 80% ARP and there's sunder up on a boss, does that mean I have 100% arp, or do I have 80% of the bosses armor after the 20% is calculated. Example. Say boss has 20k armor. With sunder armor, they have 16k armor. Now if I have 80% arp and sunders up, does the boss have 0% armor to me or does my 80% factor into the 16k armor, so the boss has 3.2k armor. Does this make sense to anyone <_>

***If I got 30% arp, and a tank apply sunders. Does that mean I got 50% arp?***

NO! Armourdebuffs like Sunder armor, expose armor and faerie fire are calculated before your armor penetration rating is calculated.

Boss X has 10 000 armour, a prot warrior applies Sunder armour(20%) which brings X's armour to 8 000.
(now it's time for your debuffs)
You have 45% armor penetration, which reduces 8000 armour to 4400.
Final boss armour is 4400.


And yeah Gulk I know it's a small amount, but on HM LK it's still better to push misses off the table for tranqs. Like I said, RNG isnt your friend. You said its a loss of 15dps if you switch gems, and in 7000shots only 4 missed. Capped, all would hit. Would those 4misses equate to 16dps or more?

[Gulkeeva]

***If I got 30% arp, and a tank apply sunders. Does that mean I got 50% arp?***

NO! Armourdebuffs like Sunder armor, expose armor and faerie fire are calculated before your armor penetration rating is calculated.

Boss X has 10 000 armour, a prot warrior applies Sunder armour(20%) which brings X's armour to 8 000.
(now it's time for your debuffs)
You have 45% armor penetration, which reduces 8000 armour to 4400.
Final boss armour is 4400.


And yeah Gulk I know it's a small amount, but on HM LK it's still better to push misses off the table for tranqs. Like I said, RNG isnt your friend. You said its a loss of 15dps if you switch gems, and in 7000shots only 4 missed. Capped, all would hit. Would those 4misses equate to 16dps or more?

maybe who knows, those 4 hits could of been crits or non crits, but like I've said... you can "fail" tranq shots even at 8% hit, rumour is you need to hit the spellhit cap at like 15% (with spriest/boomkin whatever) to get it without any chance of "fail". According to spreadsheets though over the longrun the dps from keeping the currnet stats over a period of 4 hours, is still over what gemming extra hit and loosing 1% arp or .3% crit and 20+ ap in that time frame.

I've never seen one miss, you can infact, check the link to the dps report before and check all the LK attempts for a tranq miss its not there (just click the guild name, and it'll bring up a calendar).

Only issue we've had in guild is... shadow traps on people, and MT surviving phase 2 when a healer gets pickedup ;/
oh and infest phase 2

(btw I'm the only hunter... since ulduar basically ...~!) all over 14ish recruits disappeared/said quit the game, left because they didn't get something they wanted, terrible dps etc)

[Tricen]

Awww, that sucks. I hate it when I'm right about things :/. I guess I'll wait a bit before I gem full arp as frost dps

[Boyiee]

Wow that's outrageous. Only 1?

Lots of posts on EJ about having like 3 hunters because of a resisted tranq causing a wipe, therefore being hitcapped to avoid that as much as possible.

[Gulkeeva]

Wow that's outrageous. Only 1?

Lots of posts on EJ about having like 3 hunters because of a resisted tranq causing a wipe, therefore being hitcapped to avoid that as much as possible.

yup, you can check from that calendar on wowmetersonline for the guild, maybe 5-6 random hunters only showup for 1-2 days at any time and point.. I've been the only hunter for every LK fight, heroic and non heroic.

a rogue shivs poison when 2 horrors are up (heroic) and.. the OT has died from the rogue forgetting to do it more then a failed tranq shot thats for sure... (especially when the rogue dies from shadow trap or something!)

[Boyiee]

How do you go through hunters so fast? Are they just bad or can't keep up?

I mean, we went through a lot of recruits and tryouts at a time even when we didn't need any spots to fill, but we'd often find someone undergeared that was actually really good.

My own random Q... should I finally upgrade to shadows edge? Been using bryntroll forever but I mainly pug 25s and raid 10mans up to LK, my guild hasnt downed it yet. Warrior btw 5900gs - Bryn + Ramaladni

[Tajin]

You should if you got the money / means to get the saros and can get the bloods without hitch. Shit just melts before you with that weapon (and proper gear/skills ofc)

[Gulkeeva]

How do you go through hunters so fast? Are they just bad or can't keep up?

I mean, we went through a lot of recruits and tryouts at a time even when we didn't need any spots to fill, but we'd often find someone undergeared that was actually really good.

no idea, had several decently geared ones.. if not close to what I had, but they did several thousand dps below me. Unsure if they just weren't familiar with the fights or not sure what to do. Last one died on pretty much anything that would almost require a miracle to die.

Cleaved by merrowgar, 3 ghosts at once, fall off airship, tried to run from beast thing and fall off the edge, didn't get spores on festergut, died in a puddle on rotface, died to disease on putridcide.. etc etc

Well we did start to make fun of him after about 50 deaths doing about 5 bosses (we uses alot bres etc on him+trash deaths) must of been a ebay account or something to have decent 264/some 277 gear and be that bad...