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[shinoniken]

Highly doubt you could provide math to prove that high end DKs take any more damage than prot paladins.

[Correction]

EVERY THREAD IS RANDOM ARGUMENT THREAD.

[BadKarma]

Highly doubt you could provide math to prove that high end DKs take any more damage than prot paladins.

Youre probably going to wish you didnt say that.


Incoming half a fucking page of X+3y = 23.4 D p/second taken

[FailureMidgard]

Highly doubt you could provide math to prove that high end DKs take any more damage than prot paladins.

I was told by my guild you have to be trolling me to make that claim, to which I replied "ok". I don't actually care.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lurez/advanced has 25301 armor, +30% is 32891. 388 ilvl. If he had stoneskin gargoyle and it stacks (I don't think it does), that'd be 34206 armor. 15.17d, 17.09p.
Our 10man warrior tank with ~381 ilvl has 38101 armor unbuffed. He has 16.18d, 17.66p unbuffed.

We'll call dodge/parry equal for fun (really just a trinket difference probably).
38101 = 59.37%
~33801= 56.14%
Slightly lower than the listed armor # for DK, but it's what I had to work with, but again I think I over estimated armor to begin with, so we'll call it 59 vs 56 %.

Continuing with passive stuff, DK has +9% stam, and -14% damage taken.
Paladin has +15% stam, and -10% damage taken.

So, a 100k hit thus far becomes
DK: 100*.86*.44=37.84
Paladin: 100*.9*.41=36.9

Now then, our paladin is actually block capped. A block is -30% damage taken. A DK's answer to this is DS+BS. The linked DK has 15.82*6.25+50=148.875.

Let's estimate sustained damage is ~60k/1.5 seconds with a bad string of avoidance, so 4 hits at 60k per for 240k dmg. Death Strike thus heals for 48k, and you get a shield for 72k. Thats 50% of the incoming damage, and 72k of that is a shield that didn't apply to that burst. To make it count, you need at least 1 more swing after (for 60k, so the entire shield isn't used). So there was 300k damage total, the DK stopped 108k of it.
300k for said DK is actually 300*.369/.3784=292.55
Pally takes : 292.55*.7=204.785
DK takes : 300-48-60=192k

Now let's look at a more realistic, average scenario (you're not waiting until you take 4 hits before you DS, you're probably doing it whenever you take 2 back to back throughout the fight. DS is now healing for 24k, followed by a 36k shield. The DK is actually realistically only blocking 60k of the 300k damage, with maybe runes coming up for a second after this string hits. I'm pretty sure any DK who waits until taking 240k damage in a <5 sec window before using DS is doing something wrong (as far as short term survivability as well as longer term mitigation).

This so far is all ignoring the actual damage taken too, on the 240k example:
Let's assume both have 210k HP.

0 sec - DK (150k HP), Pally (169k)
1.5 sec - DK (90k HP), Pally (128k)
3.0 sec - DK (30k HP), Pally (87k)
4.5 sec - DK (-30k HP), Pally (46k)
5.0 sec - DK (18k HP, 72k shield)
6.0 sec - DK (18k HP, 12k shield), Pally (5k)

Note, the DK -had- to have a heal in that time to even get his DS off, the pally didn't need a heal until 3 sec after the DK died. And let's hope this is the max possible dmg a raid can do (Hint: it's not, an unmitigated hit on a DK by H-Rag10 is around 75-80k), otherwise he's actually fully dead at 3sec, giving your healers even less time.
If you truly think even in this situation where DS is just amazing healing/shielding that healing the DK is easier, you're flat out wrong. If there's 30k extra raid damage, the DK dies 3 seconds in, the pally at 6.0 seconds. If the DK DS'es earlier, you get to my earlier example where he isn't mitigating as much as the pally. Looking at the timeline DSing after 2nd hit:

0 sec - DK (150k HP), Pally (169k)
1.5 sec - DK (90k HP), Pally (128k)
2.0 sec - DK (114k, 36k shield)
3.0 sec - DK (78k HP), Pally (87k)
4.5 sec - DK (18k HP), Pally (46k)
6.0 sec - DK (-42k HP), Pally (5k)

This is quite obviously better for the DK than the first listed layout, since he has 6 seconds to get a heal and not die instead of 3, even if he requires more healing overall...

Regardless of this, the paladin has a 30 second cooldown that reduces damage taken by an additional ~28.5% for 10 seconds. Paladin also has Word of Glory on a 20 sec CD (as opposed to runetap on a 30sec cd) that heals for ~25-30k (as opposed to runetap healing for ~20-21k).
AD+GoAK > Icebound as well.
DP is Bone Shield without charges (Assuming constant dmg, aka the bad burst situations, Bone Shield lasts 6 seconds vs DP's 10. 0-2-4-6 for the 4 charges, maybe it'll go to 8 or something with rounding and such, it's still just basically worse - it also consumes half of a Death Strike worth of resources and is on GCD).


Looking at most DKs (including Alurez) parses in FL, you see a roughly 20k average heal (because lets be honest, they have to DS at full HP a lot too), with the absolute highest heals generally being around ~70k when they survive (seen a few higher where they died, or on Baleroc), but are still pretty rare. For the record, Baleroc is a nice niche for DK where they can shine, since the "harder" healing part is either D.Blade (where shield block does nothing, and DS is really good) or Inferno Blade (which is always AMS'd, and shield block does nothing, though pally can still -20% it).

All of this was done with as much favor to the DK as possible, including higher ilvl, giving him an armor meta and the paladin no meta at all (-1.25% dmg taken without cd, -2% dmg taken with shieldblock up), ignoring the 6% more stam the pally has, and giving the DK every benefit of the doubt (he got higher avoidance than he has, higher armor than he has. The stam+meta alone actually puts the pally in the first timeline about 13k higher on HP (18k instead of 5k). Of course I also left our raid wall, bubble to clear stacks, triple taunt off an ally, HoP, Sac, and more. What did I leave off for DK? the Glyph that heals your party for 8k damage. Wooohooo...so if you're in 25man, healing your whole party for 8k is 40k damage...an aoe attack would have to do 8.3k at least for raid wall to equal that.

I know, TLDR, I don't even want to go back and read it myself to check for typos. It's okay though, healers love having a 3 sec window between full and dead instead of a 6 second window. It's definitely not worse at all.

Incoming half a fucking page of X+3y = 23.4 D p/second taken

I think I beat your prediction.

{Edit}
This is of course assuming the 16% chance to miss a Death Strike doesn't happen at a really bad time also.

You realize there's a reason prot pallies are likely getting nerfed, and DKs are getting buffed come 4.3?!

{Edit2}
I think I made an error in HP kinda? DK has more passive than I accounted for, but pallies are gemming stam while being at the block cap, putting them 10-20k higher in actual raids than a DK because the DK has to gem 100% mastery to hit what's being stated (alternatively the pally has the option of DPS stats, dodge/parry to lower the chance of a string of poor avoidance, or stam). Also, I have no idea how Imp. DS talent works, but on a dummy it seems to do nothing at all, and looking at WoL, the #s I'm listing are showing up anyway, as I said, 20k is the average DS.

The reality of the game right now is the entire knowledgeable endgame community realizes paladins are overpowered as tanks, and DKs are at the low end (though honestly, if DS were guaranteed, it'd make them a lot more competitive...on the wait until 4th hit to DS example, again, he has a 1/6 chance of flat out not landing that, the pally...doesn't?). To go back and clarify my original statement, it's only pertaining to there here and now, and balance in this game is a rotating door. DK's were completely broken back in early Wrath, and warriors were the ones that were pretty weak. I'm sure in the future, DKs will be buffed, so if you want to play one - great, it can definitely kill any content in the game, it's just not ideal for most of it.

If you want a good read that's less mathy and more conceptual:
http://sacredduty.net/2011/08/04/pro...-knight-redux/
It probably does a better job than me explaining shit, from a common sense pov.

[aurik]

Tank survival seems like such a nonissue these days. Back in T11, I'd rather see "mana sponged per 10 seconds" given moderately bad luck (rolls depressed by 33%).

Nowadays it's all about how useful the tank can make themselves, and Warrior takes that cake imo.

[FailureMidgard]

Tank survival seems like such a nonissue these days. Back in T11, I'd rather see "mana sponged per 10 seconds" given moderately bad luck (rolls depressed by 33%).

Nowadays it's all about how useful the tank can make themselves, and Warrior takes that cake imo.

I can't argue with tank survivability being a nonissue, well, paladin survivability anyway...utility kinda depends on raid makeup (buffs provided), but pally is still really good there with raid wall, might, hand of sac for something like baleroc, etc. Really, DK is prob last here too, with the others all having their perks.

But hey, I've said a million times to people that as far as like gear on a tank goes, get un-fullhittable on a pally, then pass gear 'cause it doesn't matter what you get after that.

[Boyiee]

Highly doubt you could provide math to prove that high end DKs take any more damage than prot paladins.

[shinoniken]

Constant melee only damage over 6 seconds in a vacuum is your math? And you constantly mention survival when the question is damage taken. And you quote a few CDs but don't include them in your math, and also didn't even mention over half of a death knight's cooldowns. This is hardly proof of anything, except that over 6 seconds of static damage with no healer, and a DK who is too stupid to double tap DS to save his life, a prot paladin would live slightly longer. Impressive.

[FailureMidgard]

Constant melee only damage over 6 seconds in a vacuum is your math? And you constantly mention survival when the question is damage taken. And you quote a few CDs but don't include them in your math, and also didn't even mention over half of a death knight's cooldowns. This is hardly proof of anything, except that over 6 seconds of static damage with no healer, and a DK who is too stupid to double tap DS to save his life, a prot paladin would live slightly longer. Impressive.

You've gotta be trolling, right?

WoG > Rune Tap
Guardian = Icebound
DP > Bone Shield
Holy Shield > Vamp Blood
AD > DRW
K, I got every cooldown you have now, are you happy? Paladin is equal or better on every single one. Oh yea, I left out:
Divine Guardian, Lay on Hands, Hand of Protection, Divine Shield.

Also, for the record, DK has 2 strengths. 1 is large magic hits 45 seconds apart for AMS, and I mentioned the -1- fight this tier that occurs on as a niche for DK. The other IS constant melee damage over 6 seconds. That's 100% where a DK shines. As it gets more sporadic, the DK falls further and further behind. And the sheer fact you think "double tapping DS" is even viable shows you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. A DK does -not- sit on full runes just for the hell of it to wait for that 1 time during the fight they will get spiked. They will sit on runes so long as runes are regenning, and as soon as they hit 2 fr/uh runes, they will death strike (or maybe a couple seconds earlier if they happened to go 8 seconds with 0 hits). Blood Shield stacks now, if you missed the memo, and if you really wanted to make an argument, you would have made one saying if there was no damage for 8 sec before, there would have been some Blood Shield up already.

The fact of the matter is, that vacuum is insanely silly, I agree, but IT'S WHAT FAVORS THE DK'S BLOCK MECHANIC, because for the DK to come even -close- to a pally in total mitigation, he needs that sequence repeated the entire fight. Death Strike does not apply to every boss swing, it can only be done so often based on your rune regeneration. If you take 100k dmg every 5 seconds, you can now DS 100k every 10 sec for a whopping 30k "mitigation" per 10 seconds. The pally gets more than double that just standing there afk.

You're obviously quite stuck on your opinion, so have fun with that, I'm nowhere near the first to say this, and blizzard agrees. Want some random parses from FL?

Go look through WoL, you can pick virtually any fight, and find a prot pally and a DK doing the same role with roughly the same fight duration. Without fail, the DK will take more damage, -even- when you get lesser geared pallies. I have no idea what you want, a DK can do it fine, but you're beyond delusional. Double tapping DS, ha ha, right, let's all sit on full runes constantly, pro DK there.
It's really sad actually, that you don't even realize my 6 second burst scenario was the best possible case for a DK, /sigh.

[shinoniken]

edit: nevermind, it's not worth it

[BadKarma]

edit: nevermind, it's not worth it

My tanking toon is a DK and I will say that Failure destroyed you on every level.

[avelle]

That was my exact reaction. He obviously didn't know who he was talking to or he would never have said that.

[FailureMidgard]

That was my exact reaction. He obviously didn't know who he was talking to or he would never have said that.

But do you know? It looks to me like you joined in Aug 2011 and have a 20 postcount.

[Correction]

Hahah what the hell? avelle got shot by the server gremlins?

[FailureMidgard]

Hahah what the hell? avelle got shot by the server gremlins?

Yea, and he's really emo over losing his join date and post count, so being the asshole I am, have to rub it in his face!

[BadKarma]

Yea, and he's really emo over losing his join date and post count, so being the asshole I am, have to rub it in his face!

Youre rubbing your asshole on his face?

[Katlan]

Hahah what the hell? avelle got shot by the server gremlins?

Yea, and he's really emo over losing his join date and post count, so being the asshole I am, have to rub it in his face!

Youre rubbing your asshole on his face?

LOL

[Guitarman]

lol

[etelosbo]

I have an alt that I intend to use for crafting only. He is a JC/Enchanter Disc Priest. I originally thought priest sounded fun but have since been fairly bored with it. Since I only need 75 to get to 525 in a profession can I quit leveling him there? I figured I could since I wouldn't need anything like chaos orbs, but then I saw some recipe I was able to learn from my profession level but I couldn't create it because of my character level. . Are there many recipes like this? Am I going to need 85 to get full use out of these two professions?

[avelle]

But do you know? It looks to me like you joined in Aug 2011 and have a 20 postcount.

Jerk, it's fixed now.

Hahah what the hell? avelle got shot by the server gremlins?

Ya, last week my account suddenly went poof and Sonomaa/Ragns had to fix it. Suddenly got logged out and all traces of my account were gone, but all of my posts remained. Really strange.

Yea, and he's really emo over losing his join date and post count, so being the asshole I am, have to rub it in his face!

You're always an asshole.

Youre rubbing your asshole on his face?