Political crisis in Canada

[guartz]

No, that's not democratic at all. Therefore, immoral. amirite?

edit: I'm just trying to capture the reasoning behind this statement.

"Remember kids: A group of sitting Member's of Parliament who together form a majority of seats with a leader who has the approval of them is undemocratic.

Asking the GG to suspend Parliament for almost two months to avoid MPs voting the sitting government which has lost the faith of the members out of power is not."

[Skjie]

Basically put, the PM used a loophole to allow his government to not be defeated. At the same time, he is trying to paint the opposition as being undemocratic.

Edit: Not being in Canada, you don't get the full shitstorm this is here. Harper is running nonstop ads decrying the lack of democratic regard the opposition has, while taking the least possible democratic way to keep his government in power.

[guartz]

Basically put, the PM used a loophole to allow his government to not be defeated. At the same time, he is trying to paint the opposition as being undemocratic.

Edit: Not being in Canada, you don't get the full shitstorm this is here. Harper is running nonstop ads decrying the lack of democratic regard the opposition has, while taking the least possible democratic way to keep his government in power.

But basically you support whichever side is acting more democratic? Am I rite?

[Kaylia]

No, they are doing exactly what our parliamentary system is meant to do: pass legislation easily by maintaining a majority. Harper is being sneaky getting it all cancelled, and trying to make up reasons why the coalition is wrong.

EDIT: Both the rule and spirit of the law are being followed with the coalition. Suspending parliament was designed to be used where there is no further business of the Government and not reason to meet, thus giving people a break to deal with local matters. Harper's use to avoid a confidence vote is against the spirit of the law, while not being illegal.

What are the motive behind this coallition? Is it really for Canada's best interest? I doubt so.

What they are doing is just selfish politic, and it won't do anyone any good. When we voted 2 months ago, we didn't vote for this kind of party or alliance.

[Skjie]

But basically you support whichever side is acting more democratic? Am I rite?

I am a Liberal member, so clearly I support them. However, I do not support the coalition only because it includes the Bloc.

[Skjie]

What are the motive behind this coallition? Is it really for Canada's best interest? I doubt so.

What they are doing is just selfish politic, and it won't do anyone any good. When we voted 2 months ago, we didn't vote for this kind of party or alliance.

Technically, you didn't vote for a Harper minority either. A lot of people really don't understand that Canada's system is vastly different than the Americna system.

[guartz]

What are the motive behind this coallition? Is it really for Canada's best interest? I doubt so.

What they are doing is just selfish politic, and it will do persons directly involved much good if successful.

Fix'd to make sense.

[guartz]

I am a Liberal member, so clearly I support them. However, I do not support the coalition only because it includes the Bloc.

Does it make a difference if they are acting democratically or not?

[Skjie]

Does it make a difference if they are acting democratically or not?

Yes, as a political minor student, I wouldn't continue to support them if they were acting against the law (or spirit of the law).

EDIT: If you want me to say I wouldn't support them if they were acting undemocratically, define "undemocratically".

[guartz]

Yes, as a political minor student, I wouldn't continue to support them if they were acting against the law (or spirit of the law).

EDIT: If you want me to say I wouldn't support them if they were acting undemocratically, define "undemocratically".

So a common definition of democracy would be; " government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system"

Undemocratic would be: not in agreement with democratic ideals.

[Beckwin]

seriously guys? there's three "liberal" parties and one conservative. don't act like there's absolutely no sort of mandate floating around given that the conservative party won on a plurality.

real talk: everyone wants liberal when things get tough economically. the only time conservatives can win is when the economy is fine enough that they can divert toward knee-jerk social issues and pretend fiscal-responsibility, or a war with typical tough-guy talk (and with Canada, I can't imagine that working out too often or to great effect).

[Skjie]

So a common definition of democracy would be; " government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system"

Undemocratic would be: not in agreement with democratic ideals.

Then yes, I would stop supporting the Liberals if they were behaving undemocratically. Here's the rub, before you try to throw something in my face: under the Canadian system of government, the coalition passing a vote of nonconfidence and then requesting the GG let Dion try leading the country before calling an election is the most democratic outcome currently possible and likely.

Stephen Harper has lost the confidence of the house, he no longer has the democratic right to govern this country. Rather than waste time and money on an election, while our economy suffers, the coalition is the proper course of action. However, I feel that come summer, or fall, an election should be called, once the situation has calmed.

EDIT: This is hard to understand for a lot of people, but Canada is not a direct democracy. Calling an election over every litte thing is wasteful and idiotic. Especially when we have institutions designed to cope for this situation. Not to mention that Harper is not automatically the winner after the election. After the seats are counted up, the GG asks him to be PM based on the assumption he controls the house. As he no longer does, it makes perfect sense for her to ask someone else who does control Parliament to be the PM.

[guartz]

Then yes, I would stop supporting the Liberals if they were behaving undemocratically.

government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

So if a citizen voted for representative A, who did not get elected, he is still taxed. The state just has authority to do so. This causes the social contract to be broken , since state must derive authority from the consent of the governed. Which it failed to do.

Since Canada still jails people who don't pay taxes, (whether they voted or not) this means said state is undemocratic.

[Beckwin]

guartz stop doing drugs.

[guartz]

guartz stop doing drugs.

biotch! Tell me i'm wrong?

DO IT.


TELL ME I'M WRONG!!

[Skjie]

government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

So if a citizen voted for representative A, who did not get elected, he is still taxed. The state just has authority to do so. This causes the social contract to be broken , since state must derive authority from the consent of the governed. Which it failed to do.

Since Canada still jails people who don't pay taxes, (whether they voted or not) this means said state is undemocratic.

I knew this would end poorly, but this? This is stunning.

[Kaylia]

seriously guys? there's three "liberal" parties and one conservative. don't act like there's absolutely no sort of mandate floating around given that the conservative party won on a plurality.

real talk: everyone wants liberal when things get tough economically. the only time conservatives can win is when the economy is fine enough that they can divert toward knee-jerk social issues and pretend fiscal-responsibility, or a war with typical tough-guy talk (and with Canada, I can't imagine that working out too often or to great effect).

Bloc Quebecois and NPD are socialist (or do you consider socialism a sub case of liberalism?)

Anyway, the Bloc Québecois are nothing but closet conservative. The only reason they exist is for to preserve the French canadian culture (that's why the separatist cause exist).

[Sanjiyan]

I'm a Canadian who don't care about or follow Canadian politics and I have this to say, "holy shit this is messed up, lol."

The thread has been insightful and educational; I honestly didn't fully understand the political system and all it's "loopholes" until now.

The next few months is going to get worse before it gets better it seems. When should I start buying gold with my money and hording food and guns and boarding my windows?

[Skjie]

seriously guys? there's three "liberal" parties and one conservative. don't act like there's absolutely no sort of mandate floating around given that the conservative party won on a plurality.

I'm not sure which side you're arguing here. Also, Liberals are frequently called "The Natural Governing Party of Canada". They are truely the most successful populist party in Canadian history.

[Skjie]

I'm a Canadian who don't care about or follow Canadian politics and I have this to say, "holy shit this is messed up, lol."

The thread has been insightful and educational; I honestly didn't fully understand the political system and all it's "loopholes" until now.

There are some really great books introducing our system. But basically, in a Majority situation, only a straight up despot has more direct power to pass laws than the PM. And a Minority is basically doomed to failure immediately. Stephen Harper is currently the third longest sitting Minority PM.