Rogue in Wrath

[Haruk]

Sooo...I just started WoW with some rl friends of mine about a month ago, atm I'm 71 and do terrible DPS in instances and old raids I've done with my friends(onyixa, zg etc..)
I specced sub because of the advice of one of my friends, and it really doesnt seem to be helping at all..
What i usually do is just open with ambush, evisc each time I have points, while trying to keep snd up most of the time, and sinister strike when honor among thieves isn't kicking in often enough.
I know my gear's not the best but i figured even with it, i should be doing way more DPS..usually I do about 700 or so and get beaten by pretty much everyone.

The World of Warcraft Armory
here's a link to my char. on armory, anyone have any suggestions on what i can do to improve my dps?

[Kytele]

Going sub was the way to go in PvP at 70 before the expansion. It's not as good now. If you want to do better in instances, go the Combat or Assassin route. Since you have a pair of daggers already I'd probably go for Mutilate if I were you.

[Eanae]

Combat till 80, at which point Combat CQC with Fist/Dagger or Mutilate. Cookie cutter builds for PVE or you're pretty much doing it wrong.

[Correction]

I specced sub because of the advice of one of my friends, and it really doesnt seem to be helping at all..
What i usually do is just open with ambush, evisc each time I have points, while trying to keep snd up most of the time, and sinister strike when honor among thieves isn't kicking in often enough.

Rogue builds are often dictated by the highest dps weapons they have available to them, so simply going down one tree on friends' advice is a poor way to build your DPS in the long run. With Daggers you are only supposed to use one of two CP builders, Backstab or Mutilate. Sinister Strike is awful with daggers.

Combat at 71 is a very easy style to play when you can get your hands on decent fists, which happen to drop in the first two dungeons of WotLK.

Respec to this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

And put the rest of your points into the tree to 80 like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Cycles are dead simple. Sinister Strike to 5 CP, SnD, Rupture at 5 CP, Eviscerate if you have more than 4 CP, Rupture is ticking and you have more than ~10 seconds left on SnD. From there it's just learning how to time your CDs like Blade Flurry/AR and clicky trinkets, which is all dependent on the fight.

If you want to keep using daggers I can post a Mutilate build, but I can't speak to its effectiveness at 71 since I was combat swords at 71.

[Eanae]

Rogue builds are often dictated by the highest dps weapons they have available to them, so simply going down one tree on friends' advice is a poor way to build your DPS in the long run. With Daggers you are only supposed to use one of two CP builders, Backstab or Mutilate. Sinister Strike is awful with daggers.

Combat at 71 is a very easy style to play when you can get your hands on decent fists, which happen to drop in the first two dungeons of WotLK.

Respec to this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

And put the rest of your points into the tree to 80 like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Cycles are dead simple. Sinister Strike to 5 CP, SnD, Rupture at 5 CP, Eviscerate if you have more than 4 CP, Rupture is ticking and you have more than ~10 seconds left on SnD. From there it's just learning how to time your CDs like Blade Flurry/AR and clicky trinkets, which is all dependent on the fight.

If you want to keep using daggers I can post a Mutilate build, but I can't speak to its effectiveness at 71 since I was combat swords at 71.

Envenom will almost always outdamage eviserate. As elitist jerks suggests, use a spreadsheet to see which of the two you should use.

[Correction]

Is the gap between Envenom and Eviscerate that huge at 71? Especially as his hit rating deteriorates when he levels, resulting in painfully slow restacks of DP?

I have my doubts.

[Norellicus]

I seem to recall most rotations at 70 only calling for 1s/5whatever, was there some new math showing 5s to be more optimal in the long run?

[Correction]

I'm thinking from the perspective of a fresh rogue at 71. Surely when you're 80 and geared/buffed to the gills there are gains for opener -> SnD -> continue cycle, but that's mostly from your glyphs/talents giving you extra CP within the first GCD after popping your opener.

For the time being though I figure this new rogue wants consistency over a rush to optimization in unenchanted, sub-par gear, without all 71 talent points distributed and only two major glyphs. Overcomplicating the advice seems poor until he's reached the min/max threshold and the differences in DPS between safe and perfect play. For now I'd rather he learned not to let SnD drop by giving him the buffer a 5CP start provides.

Now that I consider it further I'm definitely not going to tell him to go juggling HfB in a Mutilate build at 71, because the difference between letting HfB drop as Mut and SnD falling off for a second or two as Combat is painfully massive.

[Boyiee]

I did up to 75 as combat, then to 80 as mute.

I then bitched about how I wasted as much time as I did to 75 being combat and didnt spec to mute soon enough.

70-80 as mute for sure.

[Boyiee]

OK FUCK ROGUES AGAIN!

I just got a bunch of gear upgrades, spreadsheet was bolstering like a 200dps increase from it... I was so fucking happy I finally got a new dagger...

Then I get into a pug OS 25man with a friend mage who my guild brings to naxx10 sometimes cause he's cool... Guy has not 1 piece of 25man, nor any naxx gear aside from the KT wand... who was doing maybe 1500-1800dps last I saw him a few weeks ago.... Now beats me in dps slightly, but slightly enough, with almost full blues to my full purples (10mans only).

Seriously, wtf... and they are upping other classes dps in the patch and doing nothing to ours? And they make suggestions like they will somehow equal us out in time... like tier8-9time? lol... what happened to dps scaling with gear... Time to push that 61hunter to 80 next week. I. AM. DONE. WTB a friend to trade a char with thats already 70+ lol.

[Norellicus]

I can't understand this obsession by so many to be on top of the meters. I personally feel as long as I'm pulling my weight adequately and am having fun with the class style, the rest just doesn't even matter. :/

Edit: This sounds bad, I'm not trying to say QQ more or anything, and it's certainly a reasonable expectation that Rogue should top the charts on single-target as per Blizzard's own motivation for the class; it just strikes me odd how many people are like FUCK THIS I QUIT when some other class bests theirs in DPS...the only reason I would ever quit a class I enjoyed would be if they fundamentally broke how the class itself plays.

[synistar]

Consider a few things with the encounter (AE fire elementals, dodging flame waves) and you realize the range DPS can go non-stop whereas you may need to let up a few seconds per wave just to not have your healers whine at you. As a healer, it doesnt matter as long as the damn thing dies. We all know rogues are crap in AE packs. So of course the AE damage is gonna boost that mage's DPS.

[sb]

OK FUCK ROGUES AGAIN!
(and more stuff, and then gets to...)

Seriously, wtf... and they are upping other classes dps in the patch and doing nothing to ours? And they make suggestions like they will somehow equal us out in time... like tier8-9time? lol... what happened to dps scaling with gear... Time to push that 61hunter to 80 next week. I. AM. DONE. WTB a friend to trade a char with thats already 70+ lol.

Might want to read 3.0.8 patch notes before you decide to focus on that hunter.

[Korietsu]

OK FUCK ROGUES AGAIN!

Then I get into a pug OS 25man with a friend mage who my guild brings to naxx10 sometimes cause he's cool... Guy has not 1 piece of 25man, nor any naxx gear aside from the KT wand... who was doing maybe 1500-1800dps last I saw him a few weeks ago.... Now beats me in dps slightly, but slightly enough, with almost full blues to my full purples (10mans only).

I have zero raid gear barring wand/boots. I do 3k DPS easily in 25's and 2.5 in 10's. Basically the mage setup is so radically different and allows for much more damage output than say with a pure fire/arcane PvE spec. That coupled with the amount of changes to other classes debuffs, it's starting to benefit the mage much much more with raid synergy than what we had previously. If I had a helm with a meta and 4pc t7 with other t7 equivalent gear, I'd be pulling 4k+ easily.

[Boyiee]

I don't have to be #1 on dps, but I've i'm in 10/25man epics with 4pc bonus and a mage in blues beats me on a fight where I don't have to move - Then I am not pulling my weight.

I bring no raid buffs, I do nothing but DPS. Whats the point of even giving me upgrades if my dps doesn't scale with it? Is not pulling your weight and being easily replaced by pretty much any dps class fun to you? Is it worth playing? Blizz isn't planning any changes anytime soon and we'll be lucky to get any increase by T8. As far as patch notes, guess what, we are actually losing dps from the poison nerf, and while hunter is getting a slight nerf, they are also getting slight buffs and will remain top3.

I shouldn't have to work and play hours and hours a day to get as much gear and enchants as possible to just be fighting for 12th on the meters.

On sarth encounter range has to move just as much as melee barring rogue, since rogue can cloak the waves. If you want to use a different encounter, use patchwork - non hat rogues vs everyone else. Mages are on top in most wws I've seen even with some hat rogues.

It's one thing to be bested, it's another to be >7th on meters with better gear then people. If I'm obsessed on meters, it's with being top5 where I should be. If I'm not in that top 5, then I'm not pulling my weight, and if I were in a major guild like I used to be in - Then I'd have subbed out the person in my position long ago.

Edit:: and I guess saying "i quit" or whatever I did was the wong impression. If anything it would be more of a break. Up until now, all my time online was spent on my rogue, farming getting rep doing whatever to get just that little extra edge. Well that's pretty much pointless as has become apparent to me recently. If I'm rolling on gear vs other people in the guild I'm pretty much stealing it from them at this point whereas it would be more valuable to them. My focus has just shifted to getting on hunter or another class I have and get it 80 in the meantime, while passing on gear that others should be getting in my place since their dps will go up. Maybe when rogues get their late combat, late mutilate buffs, or their mutilate glyph(WHERE IS IT!!!) I'll change back to that being my #1 priority. In the meantime, there is no reason to stress over getting the rogue more gear or whatever.

[Boyiee]

Double posting cause this is unrelated to what I last said:

Build 9464 undocumented change:

Rogue (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Assassination

* Ambush now awards 2 combo points. (Up from 1)
* Lethality now only increase the damage of of all combo moves that do not require stealth.

[Correction]

Huh...an Ambush nerf...who saw that coming :D

[Norellicus]

I don't have to be #1 on dps, but I've i'm in 10/25man epics with 4pc bonus and a mage in blues beats me on a fight where I don't have to move - Then I am not pulling my weight.

I bring no raid buffs, I do nothing but DPS. Whats the point of even giving me upgrades if my dps doesn't scale with it? Is not pulling your weight and being easily replaced by pretty much any dps class fun to you? Is it worth playing? Blizz isn't planning any changes anytime soon and we'll be lucky to get any increase by T8. As far as patch notes, guess what, we are actually losing dps from the poison nerf, and while hunter is getting a slight nerf, they are also getting slight buffs and will remain top3.

I shouldn't have to work and play hours and hours a day to get as much gear and enchants as possible to just be fighting for 12th on the meters.

On sarth encounter range has to move just as much as melee barring rogue, since rogue can cloak the waves. If you want to use a different encounter, use patchwork - non hat rogues vs everyone else. Mages are on top in most wws I've seen even with some hat rogues.

It's one thing to be bested, it's another to be >7th on meters with better gear then people. If I'm obsessed on meters, it's with being top5 where I should be. If I'm not in that top 5, then I'm not pulling my weight, and if I were in a major guild like I used to be in - Then I'd have subbed out the person in my position long ago.

Edit:: and I guess saying "i quit" or whatever I did was the wong impression. If anything it would be more of a break. Up until now, all my time online was spent on my rogue, farming getting rep doing whatever to get just that little extra edge. Well that's pretty much pointless as has become apparent to me recently. If I'm rolling on gear vs other people in the guild I'm pretty much stealing it from them at this point whereas it would be more valuable to them. My focus has just shifted to getting on hunter or another class I have and get it 80 in the meantime, while passing on gear that others should be getting in my place since their dps will go up. Maybe when rogues get their late combat, late mutilate buffs, or their mutilate glyph(WHERE IS IT!!!) I'll change back to that being my #1 priority. In the meantime, there is no reason to stress over getting the rogue more gear or whatever.

Your points are fair and you have my sympathy (sub-10th, ouch ), I just usually hear your earlier comments from people who rage at the first sight of somebody not in their class beating their DPS, lol. ^^

[Slott]

There are way too many outside raid buffs that could be skewing the meters in favor of the mage in blues. I play as a feral druid (cat). 2 weeks ago, our mage did over 5k dps on patchwerk, and I came in like 9th place on dps. Reason? We had an elemental shaman with totems in back for mages. Last week I came in 3rd place, just 12 dps under the top dps, which was a hunter. Why? We had a shaman put totems up front. I also fucked my rotations up and had rake and rip drop for far too long, or I could have had first easily.

If you're eating food, flasked, and have all the equivalent raid buffs, you shouldn't have a problem hitting top of the charts.

[Boyiee]

Are you hat? A fully geared 25man that is bored of progression at this point, non-hat rogues I see 5th-12th place, and numerous complaints in the range of 12th from rogues who have had 2x glaives for over a year crying cause of how it used to be. Also, ferals in full gear have been outdpsing rogues like crazy in most WWS.... and wtf @ that shaman wtb raid wide buffs.

As far as ambush nerf... It's not. Either malice or lethality, forget which, didn't apply to ambush as it was - it just never said so. So I think they pretty much just added it to tooltip to stop the "WTF WHY NOT WORK AMBUSH!". If anything, it's a buff, added a CP to it.

I don't mind not being #1, I don't mind losing to other classes on any fights... sure fights that are made for me I'm disgruntled at being sub#3... But there is no reason for my gear to improve week to week, and for my dps to drop lower week to week. Nor for players in blues to be pulling 3k-4kdps on their first naxx run, nor for players in blues to be outdpsing people with full set bonuses.

I didn't mention DW DK's with a blue mainhand if you noticed either, so give me credit for not qq'ing about the obvious. It's the scaling issue that's bothering me the most. Remember when warlocks sucked in karazhan, then got 4pc and started getting better. Then in T5 they were doing even better?? Then, when T6 came, 1 button press and there was no competition? Thats most likely how they will fix rogues without outbalancing them in PVP via any spec. Either that, or nice deep combat/assassin talents..... OR THAT MUTE GLYPH GIVE ME A MUTE GLYPH! -Energy on Mutilate, yes please. Added combo point on mutilate, yes please. +30seconds on HfB? -20Energy HfB? Mutilate consumes & refreshes Deadly Poison to its current amount of stacks? Yes PLEASE!