War on Christmas 08

[Jer]

If you think it's A-ok to tell everyone how stupid you think they are, why isn't it ok for others to tell you that they think you're going to burn in hell forever? Both seem equally offensive to me.

Because there is one right answer.

It's like there is a group of people telling you that watermelons are blue inside until you break the skin.

[Neosutra]

I'm not suggesting there's a counter-religion for everything just by saying X is the belief in not-Y. So you don't believe in flying pink elephants, fine. Do you believe in anything else? Then you're whatever religion you believe in. Do you believe that there is nothing, elephant or otherwise? Then you're atheist. Do you not know or care either way, and don't believe either way? Then you're agnostic.

Being a non-believer of flying pink elephants is a characteristic of many religions, not just an atheistic one.

I dont "believe" in "nothing", I simply disbelieve in theism.

There is a big difference.

I "believe" in peer reviewed evidence based theories provided by physical models of our observable universe that are testable and reproducable. I "disbelieve" in mystism, fairy tales, and superstition. My beliefs are not then tossed into a void of nothingness. The choice isnt "believe in god(s) or or believe in nothing", the choice is "believe in god(s) or or chose to apply a standard to what you accept as probably cause". I chose that standard.

[Sol-Blackguy]

I remember last year stuck in line for almost an hour at the post office because a guy was in an uproar about "Having Jesus shoved down his throat" because all they had available were Christmas stamps and Stamps of Jesus and Mary. After about another 20 minutes of his bitching, he stomped off and I proudly said Marry Christmas to put a little icing on the cake.
People need to stop focusing on the religion tied to Christmas and enjoy the traditions. Isn't the whole point of the holiday to forget our differences and celebrate the spirit of giving? If you don't celebrate Christmas, then pick your nuts up, get off your soap box, and try to at least show some at the very least, tolerance for those who do because I sure as hell doubt your ass would be at work on December 25. /rant

P.S. If anyone is wondering, I'm a Buddhist, not a very orthodox one, but a tolerant one at least.

[Neosutra]

I guess you didnt read the 7 pages of "publicly funded/endorsed symbols of a religion" being offensive to people to whom that religion state should/will be tortured for all eternity.

As stated above, would you tell someone to just get over it if a nazii symbol was on his stamps? Or lets take a less antagnonistic one: Would you tell someone to get over it if they were handing out only stamps that had "there is no god" on them.

[Galkaeater]

To some, a cross on a lawn is a symbol that those people think you are going to burn in hell forever, and is as offensive as the atheist sign was, if not more.

Are these the same people offended by the colour red and its links to communisium?

[Neosutra]

No. But thanx for playing.

[Demosthenes11]

I still can't believe we are comparing the cross to hitler

[Neosutra]

Because one believed that a specific group is deserving of torture and death and the other believes that a specific group is deserving of torture and death for all eternity?

Where are you missing the difference? Hitler was a christian you know.

[Seraph]

I guess you didnt read the 7 pages of "publicly funded/endorsed symbols of a religion" being offensive to people to whom that religion state should/will be tortured for all eternity.

You keep saying this, but I'm not familiar with the 'christian or gtfo burn' teachings. There some bible passage I missed or something? I know there are some extreme religious nuts out there that will say shit that isn't true, but I don't think I've heard the line "If you aren't a Christian, you will burn in hell forever."

[Neosutra]

You keep saying this, but I'm not familiar with the 'christian or gtfo burn' teachings. There some bible passage I missed or something? I know there are some extreme religious nuts out there that will say shit that isn't true, but I don't think I've heard the line "If you aren't a Christian, you will burn in hell forever."

Really.. you've never heard non believers go to hell?

Do you live in the US?

[Khamsin]

Technically, the difference is Hitler thought they deserved it and wanted to see it carried out. Christians are sympathetic, believing you will be tortured and so providing some relief by saving you. They wish it weren't the case, but regretfully accept the way things are. Like coming across someone in quicksand and throwing them a rope. Hitler, on the other hand, would throw you in there.

At least, that's how it's supposed to work. There are some who pervert Christianity into wishing you get the eternal punishment and think handing it out prematurely would win favor with god somehow.

[Seraph]

Really.. you've never heard non believers go to hell?

Do you live in the US?

Just because you hear something doesn't make it an actual teaching of a religion.

If I recall correctly, there is no official statement that anyone has gone anywhere except certain christian groups have their list of canonized saints. I've never heard any official teaching that there is even anyone in hell for sure. That whole part about redemption and forgiveness always seemed to prevent anything from being absolute.

I think you have been getting screamed at by one to many nutty christian zealots. Jesus warriors, if you will.

[Neosutra]

Displacement of responsibility isnt an excuse for social acceptance of eternal genocide of a large number of the inhabitants of earth. Christians aspire to be like their god. Everything he/she/it does it perfect, every decision, everything. When something good happens, god is awesome. When something bad happens, its gods plan. What you get what you pray for, god is verified. When you dont get what you pray for, gods awesome plan is justified as being above our own destinies/wishes.

The fact remains, these symbols are for a religion that believes a majority of the world should be tortured forever. If you are a Christian and you think it is wrong, then why are you following that dogma? Acceptance of mass genocide is acceptable if your god says it's ok? Or more specifically if your god is responsible for it? (incoming argument about how god doesnt send you to hell, you send yourself there, or something equally as stupid).

[Stiker]

I guess you didnt read the 7 pages of "publicly funded/endorsed symbols of a religion" being offensive to people to whom that religion state should/will be tortured for all eternity.

And I guess you have missed several of my posts saying that such a belief of hell isn't universally accepted amongst all Christians.

Even though I feel the title of the website is misleading, here are some contrasting views (from: Conservative Christian beliefs about Hell)

...

Metaphorical view:
*This view has only been promoted since the 16th century.

*Hell is a place where the unsaved will spend eternity.

*The extreme pain and environmental conditions described in the Bible are not to be interpreted literally. The biblical descriptions of heat, bondage, darkness, thirst, worms, pain, flogging, fire, etc. are symbolic -- perhaps symbolizing the emotional pain of being separated from God.

*Two characteristics of Hell that are mentioned throughout the Christian Scriptures are fire and darkness. Interpreted literally, these factors conflict. It is necessary to interpret at least one of them symbolically; perhaps the other characteristics of Hell should also be interpreted symbolically. As Billy Graham stated: "I have often wondered if Hell is a terrible burning within our hearts for God, to fellowship with God, a fire that we can never quench."

Purgatorial view:
*This is a belief taught by the Roman Catholic church.

*Everyone, at death, is immediately judged. Those who have committed one or more mortal sins that have not been repented and erased through church sacraments will go directly to Hell. A very few who have lived unusually spiritual lives will go directly to Heaven. The rest will go to Purgatory which many Roman Catholics believe is a place of punishment -- a type of temporary Hell.

*After a period of punishment, which may extend over many centuries or millennia, each inmate will become sufficiently purified. They will then be accepted into Heaven.

*Purgatory was originally interpreted in symbolic terms. It later became viewed as an actual location; a form of Hell. More recently, the church has returned to a more symbolic interpretation. In 1999, Pope John Paul II described a concept of Purgatory which is at variance with the popular view. He stated that Purgatory "does not indicate a place but a condition of life..."

Some alternative views of Hell are:

*No Hell: The unsaved simply cease to exist at death. This belief is held by a few Evangelical Christians who believe that unsaved persons will not be punished in Hell. Some support for this concept can be found in the writings of Paul. e.g. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death..." (KJV)

*Hell is not really that bad: C.S. Lewis, in his book "The Great Divorce" pictures Hell as a rather drab, inconvenient, almost pleasant place, whose inmates can take a day-trip to the outskirts of Heaven. This concept avoids the picture of God as a sadistic torturer. However, Lewis' Hell is totally at variance with countless biblical passages.

...

These views are mutually exclusive. Only one, at most, can be true. There appears to be no obvious way in which the truth can be determined. Referring to Bible is not particularly useful, because intelligent, devout, thoughtful, careful theologians have attempted this, and have produced diverse beliefs. Zondervan, the publisher of "Four views on Hell," has also released a series of other books in which leading Evangelical theologians debate their beliefs about evolution/creation, the millennium, the rapture, book of Revelation, salvation, etc. In each case, there is no consensus on these important topics. Determining the will of God through prayer may not be particular effective either. If there were any way to determine the truth of Hell, Christians would have reached a consensus centuries ago. There would not be so many diverse opinions in existence today.

So stop saying every last one of us thinks you are going to be burned/tortured for all eternity. If you think I'm the only Christian that has this opinion you are sorely mistaken. The only concrete thing that Christian's have ever been able to agree on regarding the afterlife is the concept of being saved/Haven.

The fact that you are saying this is proving gross ignorance of Christianity and is similar to me saying that every Muslim believes that I should be killed for not believing in the Koran and that their symbol of the crescent moon and star represents nothing more than terrorism.

[Seraph]

Displacement of responsibility isnt an excuse for social acceptance of eternal genocide of a large number of the inhabitants of earth. Christians aspire to be like their god. Everything he/she/it does it perfect, every decision, everything. When something good happens, god is awesome. When something bad happens, its gods plan. What you get what you pray for, god is verified. When you dont get what you pray for, gods awesome plan is justified as being above our own destinies/wishes.

The fact remains, these symbols are for a religion that believes a majority of the world should be tortured forever. If you are a Christian and you think it is wrong, then why are you following that dogma? Acceptance of mass genocide is acceptable if your god says it's ok? Or more specifically if your god is responsible for it? (incoming argument about how god doesnt send you to hell, you send yourself there, or something equally as stupid).

You said it yet again, and yet have provided no proof of your claim.

In addition, I don't recall christians ever being told in the Bible to directly fight a different group of people. If anything, the message is the dirrect opposite because of the 'turn the other cheek' concept. The teaching is to educate through love and example, not force.

If you have a beef with the Old Testament teachings, well now you have a beef against Christians AND Jews, so your holocaust example is moot. Can't have it both ways.

[Alistaire]

*Two characteristics of Hell that are mentioned throughout the Christian Scriptures are fire and darkness. Interpreted literally, these factors conflict.

Lawl @ a Christian being shocked at there being contradictions in the Bible.

[Neosutra]

The increasing use of hell as a punishment for those who do not accept the christian dogma has been around for quite sometime. Quoting a train of different interpretations of Hell doesnt nullify the fact that state representation of a set of beliefs where at least a % of said followers adhere to a dogmatic philosophy of hell and damnation is archaic.

At best, you have a symbolic statement that opposes the beliefs of many americans (which as I stated is fine unless on state property), and at worst you have a symbol that represents death and torture to those that oppose it.

Even in your best case, the symbols should not be in publicly funded places, and are in conflict with the seperation of church and state.

edit: To seraph: Belief that a specific group is unworthy of life/worth and that the god you aspire to be like believes they should be burned alive forever doesnt really place alot of value on human life for those that follow it. Political activists in the middle east use this alot to incite terrorism through youth in Jihads, where as those who their god deems unworthy are murdered for spiritual rewards.

[Stiker]

If you are a Christian and you think it is wrong, then why are you following that dogma? Acceptance of mass genocide is acceptable if your god says it's ok? Or more specifically if your god is responsible for it? (incoming argument about how god doesnt send you to hell, you send yourself there, or something equally as stupid).

No. In fact, my specific dogma recognizes the fact that we will inherently disagree on certain facets of Christianity.

I am a part of the United Methodist Church, and the essential belief of this branch of the Protestant church is that we will always "agree to disagree" on many different things. We are called "Methodist" because we all come to our understanding of the teachings of Jesus through our own method.

However, we believe there are essential things that we cannot dispute, as disputing them would be completely contradictory in calling ourselves Christian. We cannot dispute that Jesus is the Son of God and died in order to save us from sin. We also cannot dispute the Resurrection and that he opened up the gates of Heaven for humanity. Those are central beliefs any Christian will hold. There are other things (such as the 10 Commandments for instance), but those are the big ones.

Beyond that, we recognize that we are limited by our human means in order to understand every last thing about the teachings. The afterlife and what exactly happens is one of them. All we have regarding the afterlife are images and stories used to give us a human understanding of Heaven and Hell. These should not be taken for a literal word. If I did than you would see me yelling at every woman to veil their faces, and proclaiming that the streets of Heaven are paved with gold.

[Stiker]

Lawl @ a Christian being shocked at there being contradictions in the Bible.

I am not shocked. I readily accept there are contradictions in the Bible and believe it should not be taken word for word literally. While the men that wrote the Bible were divinely inspired, that does not mean that God literally consumed them to the point to which they would make no human errors.

This is very much unlike Islam whom believe the Koran is the literal word of God. The Bible is not.

The Bible is a general guide in which to live our lives. It should be read, scrutinized, examined, studied, etc to derive any meaning of worth out of it.

[Neosutra]

You "accept" that there are things you cannot know, and trust what you are told.

You cant know it, dont try..

Close those eyes children, close those ears.

Listen not to the sinful teachings of men and science.

But seriously, why would a god need something to be killed to forgive his own creations of actions he deemed evil, all the while allowing them to go on in a self supporting system he created..

I will create sex drives, but make sex dirty. I will create homosexual and cross gender identities, and force these people to live out lies or be tortured forever.

Besides, you ignored everything I said in the last post.

At best, the symbols are religiosly contrary to many americans, and violate church and state (if placed on state funded ground), and at worst are a symbol of torture and oppression.

Take your pick, but the fact remains such displays do not belong on state property.