War on Christmas 08

[Blarg]

Your all knowing god sure fucked up by not seeing how many problems would be caused by outright saying something (hell is real) that somehow through 'proper' interpretation (having your skin boiled off is just symbolism for not being able to see gods smile!) means something quite different.

You think that when god is playing with human souls and potential ETERNAL TORTURE THE LIKES OF WHICH YOU CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE, he would be a little more to the point.

[Seraph]

The increasing use of hell as a punishment for those who do not accept the christian dogma has been around for quite sometime. Quoting a train of different interpretations of Hell doesnt nullify the fact that state representation of a set of beliefs where at least a % of said followers adhere to a dogmatic philosophy of hell and damnation is archaic.

At best, you have a symbolic statement that opposes the beliefs of many americans (which as I stated is fine unless on state property), and at worst you have a symbol that represents death and torture to those that oppose it.

Even in your best case, the symbols should not be in publicly funded places, and are in conflict with the seperation of church and state.

edit: To seraph: Belief that a specific group is unworthy of life/worth and that the god you aspire to be like believes they should be burned alive forever doesnt really place alot of value on human life for those that follow it. Political activists in the middle east use this alot to incite terrorism through youth in Jihads, where as those who their god deems unworthy are murdered for spiritual rewards.

I'm not familiar enough with other religious to know for sure, but that teaching doesn't exist in Christianity.

I don't have a problem with your public display example. I am all for seperation of Church and State. I just think you have a strong dislike for christians because you don't actually know what they teach. I also think that public displays are probably more about just making things look nice for the Holidays as opposed to trying to shove religion down everyones throat. For an athiest, I don't see how any Holiday is December is any worse from a public display standpoint than say, Halloween. People never seem to complain about Halloween too much (at least that I have noticed). That isn't to say I think there should be Halloween decorations at a courthouse either...

In the strictest defination, hell would be defined as a state without God. So, if you want to be literal, if you don't believe in God (or any god) you could claim to already be in hell.

[Neosutra]

God: Oh, im sorry Mr. Hadley, the correct answer was 34~! You have to burn in hell forever.

Mr. Hadley: "Wait, what was the questions?!"

God: "If you would only have interpreted my words correctly you would have known that.. And picked the right religion ofcourse".


Edit: You cant give me a "strictest definition of hell", when you just quoted me 34 different interpretations of it.

[Seraph]

[...]

But seriously, why would a god need something to be killed to forgive his own creations of actions he deemed evil, all the while allowing them to go on in a self supporting system he created..

[...]

Take your pick, but the fact remains such displays do not belong on state property.

If you want to remove the religious angle, consider it a message that sometimes sacrifice from an individual can better all the members of a group. You don't have to take the stuff in the bible literally to get anything out of it.

I agree with the last sentence in your statement, but your claim that they shouldn't be there because they represent all these horrible things is a crock. Stick strictly with the 'seperation of church and state' line of reasoning and fewer people would have a problem with it. You start getting on this tangent about why religions are so bad, and that's when people stop taking you seriously.


Edit: From your last post, you are just trolling now. You are just making shit up as you go along. I didn't quote you 34 of anything. All those definations of fire/darkness/pain are all representations of what is considered a state lacking divine presence. You aren't fucking listening. I think you just have a chip on your shoulder from getting in some fight with a religious person.

[Neosutra]

Oh ok, my problem this entire time was me bringing religion into these discussions of religious symbols in public places.

Thanx for the clarification.

While im at it, do you mind not quoting your different interpretations as a methodist as evidence for what the rest of christianity thinks?

Or perhaps you could make yet another generalization about what the symbols actually mean, then ask me not to generalize in the other direction.

"Just view the symbols as a sacrifice", just wow. Did you really just attempt to validate these practices by telling people that get offended to get over it and picture it as something else? (Earth to seraph, to these people: there was no sacrifice, odds are, there was no jesus). You are still forcing beliefs. Why dont you just look at a nazii symbol and picture the good stuff it did for germany..

[Blarg]

So when other holy books say bad things do you give the same reasoning? That those bad things are actually just metaphors and symbolism for things that are actually good, or do you think that the humans, under no divine guidance, who wrote the other holy book were just bad men/bigoted for today's standards etc and the bad things actually mean what they say.

[Seraph]

Oh ok, my problem this entire time was me bringing religion into these discussions of religious symbols in public places.

Thanx for the clarification.

While im at it, do you mind not quoting your different interpretations as a methodist as evidence for what the rest of christianity thinks?

Or perhaps you could make yet another generalization about what the symbols actually mean, then ask me not to generalize in the other direction.

"Just view the symbols as a sacrifice", just wow. Did you really just attempt to validate these practices by telling people that get offended to get over it and picture it as something else? (Earth to seraph, to these people: there was no sacrifice, odds are, there was no jesus). You are still forcing beliefs. Why dont you just look at a nazii symbol and picture the good stuff it did for germany..

I think my only point now is that you are a whiney bitch. Noone is forcing you to do anything. I'm suggesting that maybe if you read the fucking book and knew what was actually in it, and I can't stress this enough, instead of MAKING SHIT UP perhaps your viewpoints would change.

I agreed that the setups did not have to be located in public areas, but that wasn't enough, and now you have to go off on a rant on why all religions suck ass, and how you are more enlightened than everyone else.

Fucking way to be, man.

[Stiker]

Your all knowing god sure fucked up by not seeing how many problems would be caused by outright saying something (hell is real) that somehow through 'proper' interpretation (having your skin boiled off is just symbolism for not being able to see gods smile!) means something quite different.

You think that when god is playing with human souls and potential ETERNAL TORTURE THE LIKES OF WHICH YOU CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE, he would be a little more to the point.

The thing is those symbols and images of Hell were told to an audience that had been told stories for generations about a supreme and vengeful God. In the old school Jewish mindset, God didn't punish you by simply keeping you away from Him. Even some of the basic parables included very brutal imagery in order to get the point across (Parable of the Slaves and Talents comes to mind).

Jesus served to break what was then the current mindset of the Jewish people. He told high religious leaders that they had all been missing the point over and over again. He basically had to start "rebooting" everyone's mind in a sense and that is where many of the written stories of Heaven and Hell came from.

God: Oh, im sorry Mr. Hadley, the correct answer was 34~! You have to burn in hell forever.

Mr. Hadley: "Wait, what was the questions?!"

God: "If you would only have interpreted my words correctly you would have known that.. And picked the right religion ofcourse".


Edit: You cant give me a "strictest definition of hell", when you just quoted me 34 different interpretations of it.

I was the one that quoted them, not Seraph.

I can only tell you what I believe for the afterlife. Not what will exactly happens. Last I time I checked, I wasn't God.

Despite what you may think, Christianity does not serve as a tenant to scare you into going to Hell. Those that do are completely missing the point.

[zoobernut]

In the end does it really matter how you personally interpret a religious text if there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who interpret it literally and act upon those literal interpretations which has led to mass genocide, torture, and persecution of anyone who does not follow their beliefs?

Given the history of organized religion in the world are you really surprised that people like Neo who choose to not believe in a particular religion get really defensive about this sort of thing? Even if Seraph and Stiker are the shining example of Christianity and how it can be tolerant of others and believe in separation of church and state does not mean that everyone else is as enlightened as you are. I have personally been told by Christians before that I am going to burn in hell for not believing in Jesus, this was unprovoked too.

Edit: Yes I know this varies greatly with different branches and sects of religions.

[Stiker]

Oh ok, my problem this entire time was me bringing religion into these discussions of religious symbols in public places.

Thanx for the clarification.

While im at it, do you mind not quoting your different interpretations as a methodist as evidence for what the rest of christianity thinks?

You know, in you getting so pissed off can you direct it at the right person? I am the one posting those things, NOT SERAPH.

I am not claiming that the beliefs of my church are the friggin' beacon for all of Christianity. I am merely refuting your claim that my religion preaches that anyone that isn't a Christian will be tortured forever 100% of the time, in every last case.

And if you would actually pay attention so the things I write, you would see that I completely agreed with you with religious symbols being kept off state grounds.

[Stiker]

In the end does it really matter how you personally interpret a religious text if there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who interpret it literally and act upon those literal interpretations which has led to mass genocide, torture, and persecution of anyone who does not follow their beliefs?

Given the history of organized religion in the world are you really surprised that people like Neo who choose to not believe in a particular religion get really defensive about this sort of thing? Even if Seraph and Stiker are the shining example of Christianity and how it can be tolerant of others and believe in separation of church and state does not mean that everyone else is as enlightened as you are. I have personally been told by Christians before that I am going to burn in hell for not believing in Jesus, this was unprovoked too.

It isn't the fact that I am surprised by Neo's beliefs, but I would definitely like to dispel falsehoods about my religion. The fact of the matter is their are tons of Christians that completely miss the point of their own religion.

I mean my sister and I were told in a Catholic school that we would be going to Hell if we weren't Catholic. I've been told by Baptists that I have not been saved because I was "sprinkled" at baptism as well. Does this mean such thoughts are universally held across Christianity? No.

Edit: More than anything, I'm not even really angered by Neo. The fact is there are tons of Christians that give the whole faith a horrible name and that does nothing but give people the wrong impression on what we are supposed to be.

The #1 reason IMO that people won't join Christianity: Other Christians.

[Seraph]

In the end does it really matter how you personally interpret a religious text if there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who interpret it literally and act upon those literal interpretations which has led to mass genocide, torture, and persecution of anyone who does not follow their beliefs?

Given the history of organized religion in the world are you really surprised that people like Neo who choose to not believe in a particular religion get really defensive about this sort of thing? Even if Seraph and Stiker are the shining example of Christianity and how it can be tolerant of others and believe in separation of church and state does not mean that everyone else is as enlightened as you are. I have personally been told by Christians before that I am going to burn in hell for not believing in Jesus, this was unprovoked too.

Edit: Yes I know this varies greatly with different branches and sects of religions.

I just ask that you call an asshole an asshole, not everyone with him an asshole too.

I understand there are many individual Christians with a shitty understanding of what it is they are supposedly believing. The whole religion is supposed to be based on love and understanding, but people are far from perfect, and I would say that is why the implementation of the beliefs is usually flawed.

Doesn't mean we are all pricks though. Maybe I'm just more understanding than most. I can even play the 'I had athiest friends growing up!' card too. I tried to convert them about as often as they went to church. >_>

[Stiker]

I just ask that you call an asshole an asshole, not everyone with him an asshole too.

I understand there are many individual Christians with a shitty understanding of what it is they are supposedly believing. The whole religion is supposed to be based on love and understanding, but people are far from perfect, and I would say that is why the implementation of the beliefs is usually flawed.

Doesn't mean we are all pricks though. Maybe I'm just more understanding than most. I can even play the 'I had athiest friends growing up!' card too. I tried to convert them about as often as they went to church. >_>

I couldn't agree more.

To expand on this, I think "Evangelism" in it's current state is grossly flawed. It tends to always be of the "You will go to Hell if you don't convert! I am trying to save you!"

That does nothing but push people away and alienate them.

[Seraph]

I couldn't agree more.

To expand on this, I think "Evangelism" in it's current state is grossly flawed. It tends to always be of the "You will go to Hell if you don't convert! I am trying to save you!"

That does nothing but push people away and alienate them.

I would also advise not taking religious advice from the television either. <_<

[quannum]

The whole religion is supposed to be based on love and understanding

I claim that this is not an interpretation of a 'true believer' and now we're back at step 1.

[Blarg]

The thing is those symbols and images of Hell were told to an audience that had been told stories for generations about a supreme and vengeful God. In the old school Jewish mindset, God didn't punish you by simply keeping you away from Him. Even some of the basic parables included very brutal imagery in order to get the point across (Parable of the Slaves and Talents comes to mind).

Jesus served to break what was then the current mindset of the Jewish people. He told high religious leaders that they had all been missing the point over and over again. He basically had to start "rebooting" everyone's mind in a sense and that is where many of the written stories of Heaven and Hell came from.

And what about the bad things about women in the New Testament. Or Jesus saying something like he was not here to abolish the law but to uphold every part of it. Are they both just misinterpreted again?

Edit: What do you think about the symbolism of hell just being separation from god, is this separation just what an everyday non christian feels, or is it a completely different feeling.

[Seraph]

And what about the bad things about women in the New Testament. Or Jesus saying something like he was not here to abolish the law but to uphold every part of it. Are they both just misinterpreted again?

Edit: What do you think about the symbolism of hell just being separation from god, is this separation just what an everyday non christian feels, or is it a completely different feeling.

But is it a teaching or an acocunt of how things were back then? Which things about women are you refering to? I always thought Mary was held in very high reguard, to the point where Jesus even takes direct orders from her at one point.



To answer your edit, noone has come back from the dead to let us know. Lack of divine presence, at least in my mind, would be the lack of a positive and not necessarly the presence of a negative. So, in short, I don't know. My personal assumption would be that it is something comparable to abandonment, and possibly isolation.

It could even be something as simple as choosing to just 'not wanting to be around the religious'. Maybe it's not even a negative for those who choose it. Maybe it's just like being alive. The religious hang together, and the non religious hang together, and they fight with each other on ethereal message boards. /shrug

[Stiker]

And what about the bad things about women in the New Testament. Or Jesus saying something like he was not here to abolish the law but to uphold every part of it. Are they both just misinterpreted again?

Jesus did come to uphold the law, but the problem was that even the religious leaders were losing focus. Best example of this was Jesus going nuts on everyone in the Temple in Jerusalem. It had basically been turned into a market instead of it remaining a sacred house of God, yet this was allowed by Jewish leaders. Changing mindsets isn't the same as completely uprooting the law of the time.

As far as women go, that extends there as well. Most of the things written about women (and cite me somewhere if I'm wrong, I don't claim to have the whole thing memorized) came from the Epistles written by the apostles to different churches in the world. Those were following quite literally the signs of the times as far as women went. Again, this is a prime example IMO of why the Bible shouldn't be taken as word for word literal truth for today.

Again if I am missing your point here, let me know.

In regards to your edit: I person believe the suffering in Hell wouldn't be the same thing a non-Christian today feels as far as separation from God. I do think it would be a longing in which you would want to be in Heaven and with God. The reason I believe this is because in my mind, when you die you will know of God's existence for sure. Now I don't believe not believing in your life here on earth would be sufficient means to kick you into Hell, I do believe you can have a conversion of sorts after death. I base this on the story of "Doubting Thomas". He did not believe in Jesus' resurrection until he literally saw it with his own eye. Jesus said then "You have seen and believed. Blessed are those who believe and do not see." Never once in that story is a mention of Jesus saying those that didn't see and didn't believe were basically screwed. If God is supposed to be a God of second chances, why does it stop when you die? That makes no sense to me.

[Blarg]

But is it a teaching or an acocunt of how things were back then? Which things about women are you refering to? I always thought Mary was held in very high reguard, to the point where Jesus even takes direct orders from her at one point.

Timothy 2:8-15
8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Corinthians 14:34-35
34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Seems more like a teaching to me.

Do you also believe the 'hell' of abandonment or loneliness is eternal or it has a limit. Even a small discomfort stretched to an eternity seems like a huge amount of torture to me.

[Neosutra]

Wow, go back to desk for 20 min and 15 more posts.

@ Seraph:

Which shit am I making up?


And yes, I did mix up who quoted the texts of hell, I apologize. Got stiker/seraph confused.

Just to make sure I am clear here:

Stiker beleives that the bible isnt literal and christians that take it literal are retarded and me as an atheist should not over generalize christianity as the overzealoutous oppression the "extremist" make it out to be?

And Seraph, um, Im not exactly sure what Seraph is just trying to defend theism in general from my insults?

Or am I misrepresenting you two?