War on Christmas 08

[Stiker]

Seems more like a teaching to me.

Do you also believe the 'hell' of abandonment or loneliness is eternal or it has a limit. Even a small discomfort stretched to an eternity seems like a huge amount of torture to me.

Thanks for quoting the passages, that helps a lot. Those indeed are the letters that I was talking about. The way I see those passages is that they were written by men that were doing their best to teach the way to run a church with what they understood from God. In short, they are the first written attempts of church doctrine. Much as all different sects of the faith do now, such doctrine continues to be reevaluated and rewritten.

Also, it should be noted that there were several different books of the New Testament that weren't accepted by the Church. The ones we have now simply the ones that "made the cut."

In the end, yes I do believe Hell is eternal. However, I can't see any inherently good person going there for simply not believing in God during their time on earth. Being a skeptic isn't a sin IMO.

[Neosutra]

So what are your conditions for going to hell? If belief in god isnt one of them.

[Stiker]

Stiker beleives that the bible isnt literal and christians that take it literal are retarded and me as an atheist should not over generalize christianity as the overzealoutous oppression the "extremist" make it out to be?

More or less. I think those that take the Bible word for word aren't thinking for themselves more or less. Ironic part is the people that do this most are Bible-thumping Protestants that wouldn't even be in accepted existence if it wasn't for Martin Luther thinking for himself against the Catholic Church in the first place.

And yes, just like any religion, there are over-the-top extremists. Most of us though aren't.

[Maguspk]

In the end does it really matter how you personally interpret a religious text if there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who interpret it literally and act upon those literal interpretations which has led to mass genocide, torture, and persecution of anyone who does not follow their beliefs?

Given the history of organized religion in the world are you really surprised that people like Neo who choose to not believe in a particular religion get really defensive about this sort of thing? Even if Seraph and Stiker are the shining example of Christianity and how it can be tolerant of others and believe in separation of church and state does not mean that everyone else is as enlightened as you are. I have personally been told by Christians before that I am going to burn in hell for not believing in Jesus, this was unprovoked too.

Edit: Yes I know this varies greatly with different branches and sects of religions.

You hate the people not the religion. There is nothing about Christianity itself worth hating you just hate the way people choose to radically interpret the message. In fact I can recall somewhere in the Bible it being mentioned that only God is able to judge and Christians doing so (i.e. saying you will go to Hell) is a sin in itself.

Also, claiming Neo is acting in defense is pretty outlandish, it's pretty clear that his intent is offensive, not defensive. Nobody says, "Hey Neosutra, come shit up this thread with your radical, atheist, anti-christian beliefs!" he just does it on his own.

[zoobernut]

Really you can only defend yourself and people you know personally with respect to religion and not the religion itself. Religion inherently is open to interpretation and therefore leads to over zealous actions.

You act as though the religious zealots that go to extreme behaviors and believe that anyone who does not conform to their beliefs will burn in hell are a minority. What about the crusades, the inquisition, witch trials, the most atrocious actions carried out in the name of religion were put forth by religious leaders that supposedly heard the word of god not the regular people. I am not picking on Christianity or Catholicism here this is an inherent flaw in all organized religions.

Edit: you are correct I cannot speak for Neo only myself. I know personally I feel very defensive when it comes to religion because my experience with it has often been a feeling of attack. I personally brand myself agnostic as I do not believe or disbelieve in god rather I scoff at the idea that anyone can claim one way or the other. I also believe that IF there is a god that an all powerful being would not care about the insignificance on how it was worshiped or where. I believe if you lead a good productive life that is enough. My family is a mix of Christian, Catholic, and Buddhist and all religions have the same basic guidelines for leading a good life. It is all the other crap that gets me defensive.

[Seraph]

Seems more like a teaching to me.

Do you also believe the 'hell' of abandonment or loneliness is eternal or it has a limit. Even a small discomfort stretched to an eternity seems like a huge amount of torture to me.

Eh, it isn't really a problem for me until Timothy 2:11. I always just assumed the customs back then were just that men did all the talking. Noone I know now has a problem with women speaking in or singing during church. I always kinda tried to understand the traditions of the day and filter them out. We don't stone women to death anymore either (at least around here), so I would consider it just as proper for other traditions to evolve as well. I'm not saying women haven't gotten a bad wrap, but I don't believe just because it happens there it is necessarly applicable here. Some traditions become outdated, others do not. I would have to read the entire section to make sure that cropping doesn't alter the meaning of the passage, but I do see your point there. Terrible shit has happened in the past, but that is no excuse for it to continue on today. I'm sure Neo can toss out a bunch of WW2 examples if he so chooses.


As for the hell question, since my belief is that life after death is eternal, I would assume that a state of 'hell' could continue for eternity assuming the parties in control of such a thing willed it. It's never really said whether 'hell' is like an eternal sentence, or a one time choice, or a continious choice.

I always was interested in the concept of 'hell is a choice'. Not necessarly the concept that the actions you do while alive lead you to hell, but rather you are so ashamed and embarrassed of what you have done you want no part of interaction with others once you have died. Could someone grow to hate themselves so much that they force themselves into a state of self exile? I have no idea, but it's an interesting concept, and I guess I'll eventually find ont one way or the other. /shrug

[Neosutra]

Also, claiming Neo is acting in defense is pretty outlandish, it's pretty clear that his intent is offensive, not defensive. Nobody says, "Hey Neosutra, come shit up this thread with your radical, atheist, anti-christian beliefs!" he just does it on his own.

Because believing there is no god is radical, right?

No one says "Hey Maguspk, come to every thread to troll and insult and post attack posts w/o adding anything to the debate itself", but you do that just fine.

I started this debate with the clear statement that I had no problem with these symbols if not on public property.

It continued into the ways some of these symbols can be interpreted by people that may feel oppressed by having specific religious symbols thrust upon them (even when the majority sees nothing wrong with them).

It then got bogged down by a crossfire of religious interpretations and generalizations by people on both sides.

But keep at the good work Maguspk, you add the same shit to any thread you post it, and it all smells the same.

[Jer]

*Two characteristics of Hell that are mentioned throughout the Christian Scriptures are fire and darkness. Interpreted literally, these factors conflict.

Lawl @ a Christian being shocked at there being contradictions in the Bible.

You'd be surprised. I have a friend who is otherwise intelligent, but they listen to some of the most ignorant and unbelievable shit ever. One time he was watching this evangelical show and they were preaching on and on about how hell is dark and on fire, because contrary to poplar belief, the hottest flame is black. The preacher (who was apparently nationally known and whatnot according to him when he got butt-hurt later, guys name was something Tully I think) then went on to say that you can see this on the sun. He was telling the people listening all about how sunspots are the hottest part of the surface of the sun, and how scientists called them 'lakes of fire' just like in the bible. NASA apparently also reproduced this effect by putting a human in an ASBESTOS SUIT INSIDE OF A FURNACE HOTTER THAN THE SUN AND THE FIRE WAS BLACK, OMG!

I promptly turned off the T.V. and told him to stop watching stupid shit.

[Metah]

lol her name is Gaylor

[Ohaigaiz]

"I guess they don't follow their own commandments"

funny how people assume that since you are Christian, you follow the 10 commandments. That is the high guideline, but they are broken probably 10 times a minute. There is a big difference between being Perfect and being Christian.

The commandments + bible are supposed to be a guideline for life. People pick and choose what things they want to follow. Everyone is a fucking hypocrite, except of course jesus christ our lord and savior

[Stiker]

So what are your conditions for going to hell? If belief in god isnt one of them.

In short, I believe you have to be truly evil with no actual remorse for the wrongs you have done during your time on earth. On the flip-side, being Christian does not absolve you from such punishments either.

Forgiveness is supposed to be open to all that truly feel remorse for the things they have done (not just "oh crap, uh God sorry, we're cool right?"). I believe if you are to be judged to go to Hell, you pretty much did a good job of choosing to be there. Just because you don't get on your knees and pray for forgiveness to God (or go to Confession for those that have that), doesn't mean that forgiveness is out the window. People can be truly sorry for the things they have done without that.

[Neosutra]

Evil and Good is relative. Cultural morality, Social Morality, Individual Interpretations.

Evil based on your definition?

One person may call abortion evil, another may call it a choice.

One person may call homosexuality evil, another may call it a choice (or lack there of).

Or do you not assume knowledge of what is truly right and wrong?

And if so, how do you know what to do?

[Seraph]

I started this debate with the clear statement that I had no problem with these symbols if not on public property.

It continued into the ways some of these symbols can be interpreted by people that may feel oppressed by having specific religious symbols thrust upon them (even when the majority sees nothing wrong with them).

It then got bogged down by a crossfire of religious interpretations and generalizations by people on both sides.

You just seem very distasteful of religion in general. Most of the atheists I knew growing up had a 'I don't really care' attitude, but you seem more proactive in your displeasure. I'm just curious why. It kinda reminds me as a non-religious version of a bible-thumper.

[Neosutra]

Because in a discussion about religion, the validation and good/bad qualities will inherently come up. Does this suprise you?

I could care less if my friends are theist (most of them are). But in a debate online, Im not going to sugarcoat the evidence.

There is no god. Im sorry. There isnt a nicer way for me to say it.

No santa clause.

No tooth fairy.

No jesus.

What do you want me to tell you? This is what atheists believe, and it is very antagonistic to theist. Nothing I can do about that.

"Jesus loves you" is a christian sharing their beliefs.

"There is no god" is me sharing mine.

Am I antagonistic simply for what I believe?

[Seraph]

Evil and Good is relative. Cultural morality, Social Morality, Individual Interpretations.

Evil based on your definition?

One person may call abortion evil, another may call it a choice.

One person may call homosexuality evil, another may call it a choice (or lack there of).

Or do you not assume knowledge of what is truly right and wrong?

And if so, how do you know what to do?

I would say 'evil' is more about the intent to do some sort of harm. Choice in itself isn't evil. You aren't harming anyone by being gay, so being a homosexual in itself isn't evil. Abortion is much tougher because it does draw on the 'harm' example. I was always more of a 'pro-adoption' person myself. >_>



Edit:

What do you want me to tell you?

I understand what you believe, I just asked why you seem to hold the theist mindset in general in such low standings. Not the people who might hold that belief, but the belief itself.

[Stiker]

Also, claiming Neo is acting in defense is pretty outlandish, it's pretty clear that his intent is offensive, not defensive. Nobody says, "Hey Neosutra, come shit up this thread with your radical, atheist, anti-christian beliefs!" he just does it on his own.

Not really. We've been going back and forth about the concept of mostly Hell for a while now. The offensive content you refer to is in my opinion mostly misconceptions of generalizations Christianity that I highly disagree with. He is simply firing back at me, and well it is a debate so I mean it isn't like I'm expecting him to sit there silent.

However, I have a good feeling he didn't come up with that on his own. I'm pretty sure someone along the line said such things to him.

[Neosutra]

Not going to get into an abortion debate, but gl making every woman carry a child to term that they could have ended 3 weeks into the process.

edit: And ya, Stiker is correct, I am basing this off my experiences from living in the south, where I was basically told I was going to hell on a daily basis. I live on the west coast area now and the atmosphere is ALOT better.

Not having my wife called a whore for going to the family practice to get birth control is kinda nice.

[Ohaigaiz]

I'm going to say I'm on the fence about religion, and when it's time to die/I'm in grave danger I will pray to thou lord almighty.

[zoobernut]

Who cares if there was or was not a Jesus Neo? Why is it so important to prove that its all a farce? It really only matters what you believe as long as people don't try to push their beliefs on you. Seraph is right you are acting like a atheist version of a bible thumper.

I get pissed off when people think their religion or belief has any effect on me. If Jesus is your savior that is fine but that does not make him mine. And that does not mean that I will have to answer to God or any god when I die. Or maybe when I die I will get to answer to any god I want. There are a lot of people and religious leaders that give religions a bad name but there are also atheists that give atheists a bad name.

I think both the atheist sign and the nativity scene have a right to be up and it is stupid that because the majority of a country belong to one religion people get cocky about it and it does become more prevalent than any other religion and when another belief tries to get some recognition it is shot down.

[Mizango]

Anyone watching Nat. Geographic channel right now? They are talking about a magical box that sets people on fire if you touch it or look at it. God apparently didn't feel like making it, so he sent the manual to Moses to make?

This is extremely powerful and convincing. u gaiz shud chek it out.