War on Christmas 08

[Seraph]

Not going to get into an abortion debate, but gl making every woman carry a child to term that they could have ended 3 weeks into the process.

For every choice a consequence. I can't make anyone do anything they don;t want to do. However, religion aside, I do feel there are more humane alternatives to an unwanted child than killing it.

That wasn't the point of this little debate though.

[Blarg]

Thanks for quoting the passages, that helps a lot. Those indeed are the letters that I was talking about. The way I see those passages is that they were written by men that were doing their best to teach the way to run a church with what they understood from God. In short, they are the first written attempts of church doctrine. Much as all different sects of the faith do now, such doctrine continues to be reevaluated and rewritten.

Also, it should be noted that there were several different books of the New Testament that weren't accepted by the Church. The ones we have now simply the ones that "made the cut."

Do you not see it as a form of negligence for god to allow such things, that you would think are the exact opposite of what he really wants, to be put into the bible? Please don't say it's because god could not change the free will of the people who wrote those verses.

Also now that I've got your attention could you answer this question of mine from earlier, I don't think it's been answered

So when other holy books say bad things do you give the same reasoning? That those bad things are actually just metaphors and symbolism for things that are actually good, or do you think that the humans, under no divine guidance, who wrote the other holy book were just bad men/bigoted for today's standards etc and the bad things actually mean what they say.

[Neosutra]

Who cares if there was or was not a Jesus Neo? Why is it so important to prove that its all a farce? It really only matters what you believe as long as people don't try to push their beliefs on you. Seraph is right you are acting like a atheist version of a bible thumper.

I get pissed off when people think their religion or belief has any effect on me. If Jesus is your savior that is fine but that does not make him mine. And that does not mean that I will have to answer to God or any god when I die. Or maybe when I die I will get to answer to any god I want. There are a lot of people and religious leaders that give religions a bad name but there are also atheists that give atheists a bad name.

I think both the atheist sign and the nativity scene have a right to be up and it is stupid that because the majority of a country belong to one religion people get cocky about it and it does become more prevalent than any other religion and when another belief tries to get some recognition it is shot down.

Theists in here have quoted passages of their beliefs along with explanations of why they believe multiple times. As well as reasons atheists are whiners for even being offended.

I come and post my beliefs along with explanations, and Im an atheist bible thumper.

Nice double standard there.

[Seraph]

edit: And ya, Stiker is correct, I am basing this off my experiences from living in the south, where I was basically told I was going to hell on a daily basis. I live on the west coast area now and the atmosphere is ALOT better.

Not having my wife called a whore for going to the family practice to get birth control is kinda nice.

Ok, I get it. A childhood of people riding my ass would probably make me bitter too. Where I grew up, people were generally pretty laid back about everything.


Edit: And my point wasn't to directly slam you, it was to warn you not to become like the people who gave you such a hard time years ago. Hating for the sake of hating is a shitty way to go through life. Slamming the group that slammed you doesn't ever fix the problem, and I would go so far as to say that it causes most of the problems today.

[Neosutra]

Move to alabama.

[Stiker]

Evil and Good is relative. Cultural morality, Social Morality, Individual Interpretations.

Evil based on your definition?

One person may call abortion evil, another may call it a choice.

One person may call homosexuality evil, another may call it a choice (or lack there of).

Or do you not assume knowledge of what is truly right and wrong?

And if so, how do you know what to do?

10 Commandments would be the basic premise, even though there can be gray areas in them (abortion for instance). Think about most of the laws humanity has in general that are rather universal. Pretty much every corner of the earth will share similar laws and moral beliefs.

As for those that are different, well you aren't exactly intending to be evil if say cannibalism is an accepted part of life in some remote island you live on (first thing I could think of).

In my opinion, there is a good factor of intent in good/evil.

[zoobernut]

Because in a discussion about religion, the validation and good/bad qualities will inherently come up. Does this suprise you?

I could care less if my friends are theist (most of them are). But in a debate online, Im not going to sugarcoat the evidence.

There is no god. Im sorry. There isnt a nicer way for me to say it.

No santa clause.

No tooth fairy.

No jesus.

What do you want me to tell you? This is what atheists believe, and it is very antagonistic to theist. Nothing I can do about that.

"Jesus loves you" is a christian sharing their beliefs.

"There is no god" is me.

I was referring specifically to this post Neo to me this is pushing your atheist beliefs on them just as bad as they are on you. If you believe there is no god then that is fine but that does not mean god does not exist for them. There is no double standard here I am being equally irritated by pushy statements on both sides of the fence. I dislike organized religion and see no purpose of it in my life and I dislike it when people go out of their way to say that I must live up to their religious standards of morality, however I do not dislike people because they are religious.

[Seraph]

Do you not see it as a form of negligence for god to allow such things, that you would think are the exact opposite of what he really wants, to be put into the bible? Please don't say it's because god could not change the free will of the people who wrote those verses.

Also now that I've got your attention could you answer this question of mine from earlier, I don't think it's been answered

One of the points of christianity is that God never alters free will. You do what you do because you choose to do it.

[Metah]

I could care less if my friends are theist (most of them are). But in a debate online, Im not going to sugarcoat the evidence.

Hate to nitpick, but if you could care less, it means that you do care at least a little bit

[Neosutra]

I was referring specifically to this post Neo to me this is pushing your atheist beliefs on them just as bad as they are on you. If you believe there is no god then that is fine but that does not mean god does not exist for them. There is no double standard here I am being equally irritated by pushy statements on both sides of the fence. I dislike organized religion and see no purpose of it in my life and I dislike it when people go out of their way to say that I must live up to their religious standards of morality, however I do not dislike people because they are religious.

God can exist for some people and not others? Since when is existence and reality completely realitive to any observor and above peer review.

And as I said before, simply stating my beliefs isnt "pushing them onto people". I cant help it if theists naturally assume atheism is insulting.

Do you believe the statement "jesus loves you" is equally as insulting or pushy as "there is no god"?

edit: god damnit metah Q.Q

[Metah]

I'm just saying :\

And its cool if you don't or do beleive in any God with me. Despite being raised a Roman Catholic my whole life, I've never really beleived in anything more than an afterlife, and that a minimum of 1 gods created the big bang, evolution, etc and left it to run its course.

[Ohaigaiz]

Maybe it's all like black and white.

[zoobernut]

I do believe that god can exist for some and not others. Really getting into a philosophical debate here rather than a theological one but during life there is no real connection to the existence or non existence of a god and when you die if you believe something strong enough that is the reality you will face. Also I do believe "Jesus loves you" is offensive and pushy. I even stated that in one of my previous posts. I believe that IF god and Jesus existed and IF they really cared whether or not individuals believed in them then an individuals relationship with them would be non of anyone elses business. I think that the statement "Jesus loves you" inherently construes that the existence of Jesus is the ultimate truth and it invalidates all other beliefs.

[Stiker]

edit: And ya, Stiker is correct, I am basing this off my experiences from living in the south, where I was basically told I was going to hell on a daily basis. I live on the west coast area now and the atmosphere is ALOT better.

Not having my wife called a whore for going to the family practice to get birth control is kinda nice.

I live in the South too and I have to deal with some of the same. Although I will admit Alabama is far worse than where I live. Like I said earlier, some Christians are really good at driving others away.

Do you not see it as a form of negligence for god to allow such things, that you would think are the exact opposite of what he really wants, to be put into the bible? Please don't say it's because god could not change the free will of the people who wrote those verses.

Also now that I've got your attention could you answer this question of mine from earlier, I don't think it's been answered:

So when other holy books say bad things do you give the same reasoning? That those bad things are actually just metaphors and symbolism for things that are actually good, or do you think that the humans, under no divine guidance, who wrote the other holy book were just bad men/bigoted for today's standards etc and the bad things actually mean what they say.

Blarg, as a part of what I believe, I really can't go outside of free will. If I say that God shouldn't allow possible flawed or soon to be outdated in the Bible, I then have to follow and say that God should not allow any form of suffering on earth. Or, to give an example on this thread, God shouldn't allow people to condemn Neo and his wife.

Also, in general, those letters and teaching that you quoted as a whole have very, very good teachings in them. While there are some passages that can be plucked out, overall, I can't say that the Bible isn't a good general God. Plus, I do believe God wanted us to actually see such things and question them. Unquestioned faith in my opinion is not a good thing.

For your last question, I assume other holy books means those of other religions. The Koran for instance, I do believe there was at the very least some divine inspiration at hand. The Koran actually gave women more rights than the Bible did for instance, so it was progressive even though now we may not see it as such. There are also a ton of similarities between both the Bible and Koran. I also have no doubt there was also symbolism and imagery at work as well.

Just like those that wrote the Bible, I believe for the most part they wrote what they did under their best knowledge that they had of divinity. I'm sure there are examples of some that completely made up things for their own means.

[Blarg]

One of the points of christianity is that God never alters free will. You do what you do because you choose to do it.

Isn't this like sitting to the side and not saying a thing while someone goes around and kicks kittens? Telling the guy that kicking kittens is actually not cool would affect his free will so you sit there and hope that eventually after 500 kittens have been killed that he will learn it on his own.

People say god has a plan for everyone, so then was it his plan for those people to put the bad things, that are directly opposite to what he actually wants, in the bible.
If he has a plan for random joe schmo then surely someone who will be the future writer of the bible will have been 'chosen' for that job as part of the plan. So is it that god didn't see the bad shit being put into the bible, or he knew it would happen and still chose that person to enact the plan regardless of the harm it caused/causes.

I don't condone kitty kicking btw.

[Ohaigaiz]

Wanna know the problem with religion? Churches that receive enormous fucking donations just to build playgrounds and a fucking gymnasium. Hypocritical people that are so quick to defend their god, but in reality have never read more than a few pages of the bible.

You wanna be religious, fucking dandy. Don't force your beliefs on other people. Get rid of these stupid fucking churches with outrageously retarded budgets. There's so many religions today, and that's what makes me believe this shit isn't true. So many people believe in different gods. In christianity if you don't believe in jesus christ and only him you automatically go to hell. Gays are supposed to be stoned to death. Kids that disobey their parents are supposed to be killed. I went to a christian school from preschool to 6th grade. The concept of religion makes absolutely no fucking sense. It costs so much fucking money to go to a private christian school, why? This entire country is fucking ridiculous. We have god all over our money and in our pledge to the american flag, but teaching religion in a public school is a no-no.

Fucking fuck fuck FUCKING SHIT BALLS COCK DOUCHE FUCK

[quannum]

Wanna know the problem with religion?

fucking gymnasium.

I thought that was just the catholics?

[Ohaigaiz]

I thought that was just the catholics?

A methodist church I was forced to go to when I was a kid had one.

[quannum]

A methodist church I was forced to go to when I was a kid had one.

a child-molesting priest?

[Ohaigaiz]

Fucking trolls man...