War on Christmas 08

[Khamsin]

Speaking of Christians aspiring to be like their god, what do you (Neosutra) base that on?

Granted, I haven't read the entire bible, but I did attempt to read it from start to finish once and got a good ways into it before getting bored. However, most of what I read talked about God being a vengeful, angry god. A god to be feared, a jealous god. And there are several aspects of god that he himself doesn't apparently want us to follow. Namely, he can judge, he can kill, he can be jealous and angry, but we can't. I can worship him, but nobody can worship me.

Based on the bible, there's quite a double standard between what god deems is acceptable for himself and what he deems acceptable for us. He can do whatever the hell he wants and its ok because he's god and infallible. To me, that's not "perfection", that's more like an adult telling a child not to question him because he knows better. And like many children, they may think of their dad as perfect even though he's not. But, ideally, the parents brainwash their children into thinking that for their own safety and well-being until they are old enough to take care of themselves. And God really does seem to be portrayed as a father figure in Abraham's time. A bitter, angry, drunk dad sometimes (especially in the old testament), but still a guy looking out for his children.

Now, fast forward through the new testament, the middle ages, the rise of the catholic church, the emergence of multiple sects, and into modern times and you're going to have people who forget what god was supposed to be all about. Was he ever real? Was he originally just an invention used to lead everyone safely out of Egypt and protect them through tough times? Who knows. But I'm pretty sure that the original concept of (Abraham's) God is not as a perfect being that we should all emulate, but rather, an all-powerful being that we should fear and do as he says.

[Tristam]

Now with +1 festivus

Coming to Capitol: 'Festivus' display | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

[Metah]

Here's the biggest plot hole I found with Christianity/Catholisism (it kind of extends on what Khamsin said):

If God will always love you, then why would he condemn you to hell forever? Even if you killed a thousand people, wouldn't God still let you into heaven? If he doesn't, then he isn't all loving, then that goes against everything.

Or do you have to ask to be forgiven? I thought God could hear what you are thinking and know what you are truly feeling, so if you feel remorse but don't say it, shouldn't you still be forgiven? Or does that not count?

Frankly, I'm afraid of dying. I'm afraid as fuck. One day it just hit me like a thousand bricks in my jaw, when I die, that's fucking it. I'm done. I won't know anything, I won't remember anything, I won't feel anything, I won't exist anymore. And that's scary as shit, partially because no one ever experienced true death and told the tale so we would know what would happen (the sense of the unknown) and partially because I clearly want to continue existing.

That's why I beleive in an afterlife. Maybe not a heaven, hopefully not a hell, but at least something. I mean, I always imagined heaven to be just like an alternate earth. That would be fine for me, even if you still feel pain or don't get everything you've ever dreamed, as long as I can continue to exist in some way.

That's why I can sympathize with people who beleive so much in a heaven and/or hell. Anyone who can say "when we die, that's it, we stop existing and I'm fine with that" and mean it is a much braver person than I.

[Blarg]

That's why I beleive in an afterlife.

Does it really work like that? Something scared you so much that you all of a sudden believed in something that eliminated that fear? I find death scary as well but all I can say is I wish it were true that there is some sort of life after death. That big step from wishing to believing would be hard to make without eyes closed and fingers in the ear (that is a metaphor/symbolism and should not be interpreted literally).

[Metah]

I always beleived ever since I heard the concept of an afterlife, but I didn't know why until recently, frankly

[Khamsin]

The whole all-loving thing came in with the New Testament. Personally, I think the New Testament kinda screwed everything up.

The Old Testament seems pretty solid on its own, with the exception of a few possible exaggerations or stories that were not witnessed first hand by the authors (e.g. most of genesis, part of exodus). However, the accounts of what happened after exodus seem fairly reasonable and God doesn't seem to do much magic. He just bitches a lot and tells people how angry and jealous he is, and is an overall jerk.

Fast forward a bit, and in comes the New Testament. God turns 180 and is now this nice, perfect, all-loving, all-forgiving deity just because he had a kid. Maybe Mary talked some sense into him, who knows. But this is where most of the contradictions of beliefs, morals, and teachings come in. Also, we get Jesus who does some magic of his own.

On the other hand, to be fair, a majority of contradictions that people point out in Christianity are made when comparing one denomination to another. True, they're all Christian, but if you are going to point out a contradiction in beliefs or teachings, at least keep within the same faith. A lot of denominations have their own interpretation and take on the bible, with varying weights placed on the old and new testaments, and varying ideas about what exactly we're supposed to do in life, where we go afterward, and how we're supposed to interact with God.

[Neosutra]

"I believe in the afterlife because dying scares me" is the most honest answer ive heard from any theist. Ever.

[Eratosthenes]

I can sympathize with a desire for an afterlife; after all, I have it myself. I find it hard to imagine not existing, even though it's not that different from being in a deep sleep, where I have no consciousness or awareness; I wake up in the morning aware only that I had been asleep, possibly with a memory of some dream I had. But with death, there will be no dreaming, and no awakening. I'm not really afraid of it, but it doesn't make me feel comfortable. There's just no evidence that my mind would continue working once I'm dead, and even if it were to be copied into some other dimension, with my identity and memories intact, would it even really be me?

[Ohaigaiz]

Frankly, I'm afraid of dying. I'm afraid as fuck. One day it just hit me like a thousand bricks in my jaw, when I die, that's fucking it. I'm done. I won't know anything, I won't remember anything, I won't feel anything, I won't exist anymore. And that's scary as shit, partially because no one ever experienced true death and told the tale so we would know what would happen (the sense of the unknown) and partially because I clearly want to continue existing.

If you die, does your connection to the world remain? Yes
If you die, does your connection with those significant remain? Yes
If you die, does your connection with yourself remain? Yes

Death is to be viewed from two aspects. The aspect of the one who dies, and the one who looks at the one who dies. For the one who is dieing, it must be a wonderful feeling of freedom. For the one who looks at the one who is dieing, it must be gruesome, simply because they sees somebody who is dieing.

HI HOW ARE YOU

[Galkaeater]

Here's the biggest plot hole I found with Christianity/Catholisism (it kind of extends on what Khamsin said):

If God will always love you, then why would he condemn you to hell forever? Even if you killed a thousand people, wouldn't God still let you into heaven? If he doesn't, then he isn't all loving, then that goes against everything.

love isn't allways about being nice all the time

[Metah]

If you die, does your connection to the world remain? Yes
If you die, does your connection with those significant remain? Yes
If you die, does your connection with yourself remain? Yes

Death is to be viewed from two aspects. The aspect of the one who dies, and the one who looks at the one who dies. For the one who is dieing, it must be a wonderful feeling of freedom. For the one who looks at the one who is dieing, it must be gruesome, simply because they sees somebody who is dieing.

HI HOW ARE YOU

If you mean your body still exists, then yeah, for a while your connection remains physically, also throughout the memories of the people you leave behind and maybe whatever records you left. But that's not what I mean. When your brain ceases to function, I think it can be safely said that you aren't connected to the world anymore, biologically. Spiritually, nobody knows what happens.

Death can be viewed from more than two aspects; when my uncle died by having his trailer crush him instantly (he was fixing something underneath when one of the blocks the trailer was on failed), I don't think he felt a "wonderful feeling of freedom", in fact, I don't think he felt anything at all.

love isn't allways about being nice all the time

facepalm.jpg

[Cow_k]

Frankly, I'm afraid of dying. I'm afraid as fuck. One day it just hit me like a thousand bricks in my jaw, when I die, that's fucking it. I'm done. I won't know anything, I won't remember anything, I won't feel anything, I won't exist anymore. And that's scary as shit, partially because no one ever experienced true death and told the tale so we would know what would happen (the sense of the unknown) and partially because I clearly want to continue existing.

I had this happen to me when I was 15 and suddenly had a long chain of people just drop dead; family and friends. Ever since then, whether I like it or not, there are times when I just seize up and feel like my chest is going to explode from the enormity of it all. Do I want there to be an afterlife? Hell yes. Do I know if there is one? Definitely not.

From the perspective of a Christian, the biggest flaw in my mind has to come from the conflict of free will + God's plan. How can God really have a set plan for all of us yet also claim that we all make our own decisions in life? All I can think is that the so called 'plan' only involves a point A and a point B and whatever happens in the middle is completely up to you.

Because of this argument of free will, it completely explains the existence of evil despite the all seeing eye of an all loving God. The idea is, we don't know what's going to happen to us after death or the meaning behind life itself. If there is indeed an afterlife that goes on for an eternity and it's filled with nothing but bliss and peace, then anything 'bad' that happened here on earth is truly insignificant. What may seem bad now, may actually be leading up to something great etc.

Overall, I'd say the entire so-called purpose of life from a Christian point of view is that we're all being tested of sorts as to whether we can accept God into our lives or not. The more things you do that are considered evil or 'wrong' pull you away from God, whereas living a good life, treating others the way you'd treat yourself, praising God, brings you closer to him. Hell itself isn't something God tosses you into because you've been a bad boy, but rather a place you put yourself in by being too proud to accept God into your own life. God never pushes you away, you push yourself away from God. Think of it a little like someone handing you a million bucks and you basically saying: I'm too good for your money.

When Christians tell you to join your religion or you'll burn in hell, they're not necessarily threatening you with: If you don't do this, God's gonna get you, but rather: God's handing you a get out of jail free card, all you have to do is take it from his hand. Since God supposedly gave free will because free will is the basest of all good, would it really be considered a good thing if God forced someone unwilling to accept him into heaven simply because it's a nicer place than Hell?

This is the overall idea of it anyhow. Religious extremists will always think they're supposed to be doing God's work when in reality the bible says not to judge others but leave it up to the Lord.

Edit: Also, just to go back to the Nazi reference, hating everyone who's religious because of the extremists is like hating all Germans because the Nazis occupied Germany. I for one really really hate the Mormon religion, but does that mean I hate all Mormons? Far from it. And stating "I know the truth and all of you are stupid because you don't know the truth that I somehow know." is just as bad as any extremist out there. The images such as the Cross are meant to be uplifting positive messages. It's not fair for you to judge your interpretation of it simply because some people used it in the wrong way.

[Ohaigaiz]

If you mean your body still exists, then yeah, for a while your connection remains physically, also throughout the memories of the people you leave behind and maybe whatever records you left. But that's not what I mean. When your brain ceases to function, I think it can be safely said that you aren't connected to the world anymore, biologically. Spiritually, nobody knows what happens.

Death can be viewed from more than two aspects; when my uncle died by having his trailer crush him instantly (he was fixing something underneath when one of the blocks the trailer was on failed), I don't think he felt a "wonderful feeling of freedom", in fact, I don't think he felt anything at all.

You get too technical

[archibaldcrane]

Anyone who can say "when we die, that's it, we stop existing and I'm fine with that" and mean it is a much braver person than I.

Yeah, it's a fucking scary/weird way to live, but it can make you get off your ass and try to do something with your life before you cease to exist forever.

Or just make you feel guilty when you spend an entire day playing video games, and say "well, that was one day of only about 28,000 I'll ever have."

Damnit.

[Cow_k]

Also, (since this is a seperate thought, I'll make a separate post) I think the reason why you see people out there trying to force others to join their way of thinking is completely out of fear. There are some people who fully believe that if we as a whole are not 'good enough', God will go all Noah or Sodom and Gomorrah on our ass and kill us all if we get too 'corrupt'. In their minds, they're trying to save their own lives. Are they weak minded? Probably, but that's the whole motive behind this way of thinking. Self preservation.

[Cow_k]

Yeah, it's a fucking scary/weird way to live, but it can make you get off your ass and try to do something with your life before you cease to exist forever.

Or just make you feel guilty when you spend an entire day playing video games, and say "well, that was one day of only about 28,000 I'll ever have."

Damnit.

Or make you say "There's no point to any of this." and then jump off the nearest tall bridge.

[Blarg]

Think of it a little like someone handing you a million bucks and you basically saying: I'm too good for your money.

Seems more like getting an email from a Nigerian businessman who claims to have a million dollars to give you.

[Galkaeater]

facepalm.jpg

Whats the matter need an analogy to understand?
A child does something wrong and their parents punish them, why? because they love them.

[Cow_k]

Seems more like getting an email from a Nigerian businessman who claims to have a million dollars to give you.

Whether you believe it or not, I'm stating what the true intention of the Christian is supposed to be. It's not "GOD THROW YOU INTO THE PIT OF FIRE BANISH EVIL".

I have a long time friend who's mother is also a good friend of mine, but she's really hardcore religious. She's always trying to get me to 'see the light' but I know it's not because she thinks I'm bad or evil but rather that she doesn't, from what's her perspective, want to see me get hurt or experience what she sees as a very bad future. How can I fault her when from her perspective she's trying to help me even if I may not think I need her help?

[Neosutra]

Because there are no tradeoffs for being christian right Cow?

I would make no changes what so ever in the way I live and/or believe right?

Dont try and pull pascal's wager here, it is the single weakest theist argument on the planet.