War on Christmas 08

[Mizango]

Whats the matter need an analogy to understand?
A child does something wrong and their parents punish them, why? because they love them.

No, because they don't want them to do it again. Trust me, I do it all the time. Mind you, I have an 8 year old. I don't think to myself when I spank or punish her "Wow honey, daddy really loves you but I am about to really fuck you up".


Islamic "honor killings" work on the same premise. The recent on in Iran was a perfect example of "I killed her because I loved her and wanted to save her soul."

[Cow_k]

Of course you would if you felt the need to fullfill the Christian idea of a purposed life. However, you don't, so there's no reason for you to care. My point is, these people aren't looking down on you (at least the basic Christian code isn't supposed to and I'd argue that plenty of Christians would not look down on you) for not following their ideals. If they're doing it out of concern for you, then they're trying to help you, not treat you as a lesser person. It's literally the same thing as someone attempting an intervention on someone addicted to drugs. They see that the way you're currently leading your life may have consequences for you later in life. You may not think that's true and that's fine.

They are not however saying, "Oh my, Neosutra is devil spawn and the sooner he dies and God tosses him into hell, the better off we'll all be." You're coming down on a group of people who, in their eyes, are trying to help you and even though it can be annoying, you're acting like every Christian wants to tie you up to the stake and poke your eyeballs out with hot pokers every day instead of attempting to do something positive. If they really didn't give a crap about you and wanted you to go burn in hell, they'd sit back and laugh at you while keeping all the secrets to themselves.

And I'm sorry, but again, using the south alone to characterize everyone out there is simply wrong. Everyone knows there's a lot of nutjobs out there who are only looking out for themselves and would be perfectly happy to see every secular person be eradicated from the face of the planet. I bet you'd be pretty happy if every religious person suddenly blinked out of existence yourself from the way you write your posts.

[Saithorx]

God has given the gift of eternal life in heaven to everyone. You have the option to accept the gift, or refuse it.

like all or at least most Christians, I doubt God exists very regularly (If you say you don't, I would be amazed).

[Penthesilea]

Whether you believe it or not, I'm stating what the true intention of the Christian is supposed to be. It's not "GOD THROW YOU INTO THE PIT OF FIRE BANISH EVIL".

I have a long time friend who's mother is also a good friend of mine, but she's really hardcore religious. She's always trying to get me to 'see the light' but I know it's not because she thinks I'm bad or evil but rather that she doesn't, from what's her perspective, want to see me get hurt or experience what she sees as a very bad future. How can I fault her when from her perspective she's trying to help me even if I may not think I need her help?

This is the shit that pisses me off. While I don't consider myself that big into philosophy, one of the books I've read was Marcus Aurelius's Meditations.

"How much trouble he avoids who does not look to see what his neighbor says or does or thinks, but only to what he does himself, that it may be just and pure; or as Agathon says, do not consider the the depraved morals of others, but cling to the straight and narrow path without deviating from it."

Your friend needs to broaden her reading, and realize that you're your own being, and she need not be concerned with anyone other than herself.

Onto the topic of death, I try to feel this way about it:

Do not act as if you were going to live ten thousand years. Death hangs over you. While you live, while it is in your power, be good.

[Neosutra]

God has given the gift of eternal life in heaven to everyone. You have the option to accept the gift, or refuse it.

like all or at least most Christians, I doubt God exists very regularly (If you say you don't, I would be amazed).

Which god?

Which religion should I accept?

If even you doubt it, why should I accept these statements as truth w/o any evidence to support them?

Also, why would this god create beings, then dangle eternal life/torture above their heads based on a preset of rules he deemed to be important, that his creations would chose to break/follow based on the minds he gave them?

How cruel would it be for me to have children specifically to test them to see if they are good enough for my love. And burn them alive forever if they fail.

"I cannot imagine a god that rewards and punishes his creations. A god, in short, that is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that a person survives the death of his body, though feeble minds chose to believe such things through fear or rediculous egotism" [einstien]

[Saithorx]

Congratulations, you have chosen option 2. Nobody here is going to prove the existance of God to you.

[Neosutra]

Awesome, what do I get behind door number 2?

Besides, you didnt answer my questions.

Which god?

Which religion?

[zoobernut]

Congratulations, you have chosen option 2. Nobody here is going to prove the existance of God to you.

You completely fail to comprehend what Neo wrote. Who are you to say there are only two options? I believe there are more than just those two options now prove me wrong.

[Jefe]

"I cannot imagine a god that rewards and punishes his creations. A god, in short, that is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that a person survives the death of his body, though feeble minds chose to believe such things through fear or rediculous[sic] egotism" [einstien]

If you read it carefully, he does not deny the existence of God, rather, he disagrees w/ those specific notions. Hence, I have no clue what's the point of using his quote lol. Furthermore, I can't take your "arguments" seriously because most, if not all, are composed of fallacies (read: waste of time to argue about).

Edit:

I believe there are more than just those two options now prove me wrong.

Lol...

[Seraph]

Which god?

Which religion should I accept?

If even you doubt it, why should I accept these statements as truth w/o any evidence to support them?

For you, I guess it boils down to meaning. If you are under the assumption there is no higher power, no higher purpose, my question to you would be "Then why bother?" Life seems pretty pointless to me unless there is some other motivation besides making it until tomorrow. 'To what end?' and all that.

[Neosutra]

Name one fallacy Meteora.

And yes, part of the argument is addressing what exactly they are calling god in the first place.

Dont be so obtuse.


Edit: @ Seraph;

No, there is no higher purpose. I dont go out and kill myself because there isnt a magic being that loves me. I actually value life more since I believe it is all I have. I may be the result on an entropic process, and my absolute biological "purpose" may simply be to consume and procreate, but that has nothing to do with what I chose to do with my life. I happen to enjoy life alot, and feel bad for those that sacrifice their life to dogmatic philosophies, in the vain hope that rewards lay beyond the grave.

[Saithorx]

There is no proof I can give. What if there is no God? Well... then I believed in something that ended up not being right. I'm dead and that is all. No penalty at all. Why do you care what others think will happen anyways? You are sooo upset that people think you are gonna burn in a flame for eternity. If you don't believe it, then don't believe it. Perhaps you are a nice guy who will go to heaven. Perhaps you are a nice guy who goes to hell. Perhaps there is no hell or heaven. Believe or don't believe whatever the hell you want.

[Neosutra]

Stop fucking ignoring the question.

Which god.

Which religion.

And if you think you make no trades/sacrfices to follow god, then why change at all?

[Saithorx]

What would my answering these questions provide you with?

[Neosutra]

Are you kidding me?

[zoobernut]

There is no proof I can give. What if there is no God? Well... then I believed in something that ended up not being right. I'm dead and that is all. No penalty at all. Why do you care what others think will happen anyways? You are sooo upset that people think you are gonna burn in a flame for eternity. If you don't believe it, then don't believe it. Perhaps you are a nice guy who will go to heaven. Perhaps you are a nice guy who goes to hell. Perhaps there is no hell or heaven. Believe or don't believe whatever the hell you want.

That is fine but that is not what you said. You can believe whatever you want.

[QUOTE]God has given the gift of eternal life in heaven to everyone. You have the option to accept the gift, or refuse it.[QUOTE]

This is not said in such a way that leaves any other beliefs open. It is projected onto the person reading it not the person writing it. If you personally believe that there are two choices in YOUR life that is fine but don't tell me I have two choices that involve a God that you believe in but not necessarily me. It is valid to ask for this phrase what god are you referring to? Under what religion?

[Seraph]

Edit: @ Seraph;

No, there is no higher purpose. I dont go out and kill myself because there isnt a magic being that loves me. I actually value life more since I believe it is all I have. I may be the result on an entropic process, and my absolute biological "purpose" may simply be to consume and procreate, but that has nothing to do with what I chose to do with my life. I happen to enjoy life alot, and feel bad for those that sacrifice their life to dogmatic philosophies, in the vain hope that rewards lay beyond the grave.

I'm not saying a lack of purpose demands suicide, it just seems like a problem with motivation to me. 'He who dies with the most things wins' never really did anything for me. The only other reasons I can think of to really strive for success or personal improvement besides a religious goal, or a dedication to others, would just be direct competition with everyone else.

If you personally can find a higher purpose to life beyond eat & sleep & fuck, perhaps you have found for yourself what others use religion for. On a related note, my personal hope would not be that people sacrifice their lives to religion, but rather live better lives because of it. Doesn't mean it actually happens though.

[Saithorx]

You know, that big magical all knowing God that watches the earth.

One of them Jesus ones.

[Mizango]

There is no proof I can give. What if there is no God? Well... then I believed in something that ended up not being right. I'm dead and that is all. No penalty at all.

So you believe because you aren't sure? They have a term for not being sure.

[Neosutra]

I find happiness if friends, family, work, art, literature, science, food, sex, education, debate, and about 100 other things.

There are enough real things to fill a persons life with to not have to include imaginary ones. Or at least not to require the imaginary ones to be happy.

Edit: @ Saithor:

Oh ok, so christianity specifically is correct. Guess all the other religions are fucked.