War on Christmas 08

[Neosutra]

The difference being that the burden of proof lay with the theist, not the atheist.

There isnt equal proof for and against god.

There is simply no proof for god.

A person standing in a public hall saying that the world was created from keanu reeves masterbaiting into the primeordal ooze is a lunatic. A person standing in a public hall saying the world is a result of scientificly reproducible entropic reactions is a teacher.


Dont attempt to compare any atheist arguing against the theist case a "nutjob" calling all theists stupid. This thread devolved into these religious discussions due to the undertones of just what can be offensive to certain people based on their beliefs (or lack of beliefs). Assuming that anyone arguing one side is being dogmatic simply for stating the fact is irresponsible.

I cant resent a christian for telling me "Jesus loves you", but they are allowed to resent me for saying "there is no god".

Pretty rediculous metah.

[Metah]

That's not what I said at all, but you would be one of the people who fall into my examples perfectly Neosutra.

People holding signs at a football game saying "Why not spend an hour with God instead of football every Sunday" is stupid. But what if some guys held a sign at a football game saying "Spend your hour watching football on Sunday, after all, there is no god so why waste time?", I think that is also stupid.

Discussing religion or lack thereof is fine, but religion is something people should discover on their own. I already told you what I beleive, and I know what you beleive, and we should discuss our thoughts because it creates a broader understanding on both sides, even if there is disagreement. Don't get me wrong, my intent was never to single you out, but you Neosutra, never seem to want to understand. It always looks like you are out on a personal mission to try and destroy someone's beleifs, anybody's, and for what reason? I just don't see a reason. To prove yourself right? Will that make you sleep better at night?

All I was saying was, let's just discuss the subject in a sophisticated manner, and let be what will be.

[Neosutra]

So lets discuss religion w/o saying anything bad about it. Gotcha.

Earth to metah, if you discuss atheism, you are inherently stating that theism is false.

You cant have a "sophisticated" discussion on this where you remove the ability of both sides to state the other side is wrong. Thats not how it works. Atheist = theism is wrong. Theism = Atheism is wrong.

I dont believe you are this naive.

[Maguspk]

The different being religions aren't something you try to scientifically prove. It's an opinion or a lifestyle choice unique to an individual. If I choose to be an atheist, that's great, but I don't have to prove that my belief is the correct one. If you honestly feel the need to constantly assert your belief as the correct one, and oh god please don't try to flip this and say 'lol christians feel that need, lolol', then something is wrong on your side.

[Ohaigaiz]

We should all commit suicide, then we'll know for sure.

[Neosutra]

Because religion is above the scrutiny of reason?

If someone comes to me with a theory and no evidence, we call it a bad theory.

If they come to me with a theory and no evidence, but label it a religion, how then does it somehow carry more weight?

Because you label something differently, it doesnt require the same standard?

[Correction]

Wait wait I keep forgetting, is christmas bad or good this year?

[Jefe]

Except that your first point continued to assert the existence of divinity, your third point had a derisive tone, and my point was that you don't need any institution in order to be a good person.

You mean my belief? Oh, and never did I claim it was necessary for an individual to believe in a superior being in order for them to live a just life, did I? AGAIN, what is your point besides coming up w/ strawmen?

And "Neosutra," based on your "response" I see you have absolutely nothing for me to reply. Seriously, your "arguments" give me a headache, not because they are well constructed, but the contrary. I see nothing but irrelevant conclusions and assumptions, which like I said before aren't worth the time. Try to reason once in a while.

[Neosutra]

I know you are but what am I?

Is that what you were trying to say Meteora? All you ever post is that "I disagree with you neo so you're post is stupid".

Get overself, you are such a hypocrit.

Heres a starter, post a specific example for once. For instance "This statement you made was false". Its called debate. I dont get up and say "well that guy is wrong lol", I take apart their argument and present my own. You have done nothing of the sort.

Go away.

[Stiker]

We should all commit suicide, then we'll know for sure.

If a resulting post came, that would be the ultimate necrobump.

[Demosthenes11]

I think the point - above all - is that scientific proof and the scientific method is not the end all, be all of knowledge. Metaphysical things as well as existential ideas are neither proved nor disproved - because they are unprovable. There are affirmations on both sides of the argument, it just comes down to what you BELIEVE.

This is why philosophy is so interested and intertwined with theism

[Metah]

If a resulting post came, that would be the ultimate necrobump.

Hah. "Hey guys, I killed myself, just letting you know" "Yeah right" "No, seriously" "That's why you're making this post" "I'm fucking serious!"

And Neosutra, I can beleive you to be this hardheaded. Read my post again, I never said nor intended anything like you can't discuss without saying one side was wrong. Holy shit. I was saying stop trying to force your beleif of not-beleiving on people, because you are no better than that which you hate.

I know people can think things irrationally when they're emotional, just calm down already.

[Neosutra]

Aparently you didnt read my post either, or are incapable of comprehending what I wrote. No one was forcing their beliefs here. We countered theist arguements by asking questions.

Not my problem the theists cant answer their own questions.

[Cow_k]

See, there's the real rub again. Neosutra never seems to realize that he's exactly what he claims to hate. He posts again and again trying to proclaim his own beliefs and force answers down your throat based on his own reasoning.

However, logic in and of itself is completely subjective. What may come across as logical to one person may not be logical at all for other people. Perhaps you need to watch more Star Trek to see just how hardcore logic alone can fail.

I cant resent a christian for telling me "Jesus loves you", but they are allowed to resent me for saying "there is no god".

The answer to this is no. Neither of you should resent each other for it. As you so easily jumped over when I mentioned it earlier, someone saying "Jesus loves you" comes from an innate need in that person to either reaffirm your belief if you're Christian or to try to comfort someone who may actually feel lost.

Unfortunately, we don't know if someone needs help until you've talked to them. There are plenty of people sitting at home with a gun in their mouth just waiting for someone to give them answers to their own life and sometimes religion is exactly what they need to keep on going. If you find purpose in your own life by believing that no God exists and that the scientific method will never fail you, great. Keep on going that way if it makes you happy and keeps you sane. What works for you will never work for everyone and if you believe that to be true, then you apparently fail at the logic and reasoning you cling so hard to. If you walk up to someone and say: "Hey, there's no God! Isn't that great!?" and actually mean it with a positive tone, then no one should be able to hold it against you.

All you can do though is run in circles trying to prove others that you're right by asking questions with no answers and then assume that because there's no answer you can stay sitting on the throne of reason. If you want to stay on that high horse it's time you start providing proof for the big bang theory or prove that the universe is indeed unlimited or prove that the universe can somehow continue with no beginning or end. From your argument, because we don't have any definitive proof for any of those things, then none of them exist or ever happened which makes your certainty on the universe pretty questionable at best. Yeesh.

[Jefe]

There's really nothing, absolutely nothing to debate, but w/e:

So in your eyes, jesus is zues? That kinda makes jesus alot more awesome.

If that's what you chose to believe, and follow a moral/ethical path, and brings you happiness, knock yourself out.

Good and evil by whose standards? My wife showing her cheeks is evil by some people. Cultural evil? Personal "evil". Or are we just talking legal? If I am a law abiding citizen, am I good with whatever gods are out there? (Since you apparently believe in no gods and all gods at the same time.. since they are all "a higher power". )

Use common sense, don't tell me I have to explain myself? Or are you going to ask a follow up: "Lol u mean ur common sense, mine, or my neighbor's lol? I r confuzed."

There is no such thing as a religion that doesnt touch/influence others (and more specifically the people in that religion). You are going back to the weak pascal's wager argument and assuming no tradeoffs.

Never did I claim religion does/doesn't influence others, so this point is stupid and a waste of time.

We are specifically talking about the people that ARE asking us to believe what they believe and are telling us that we will pay if we dont.

The ludicrous, preposterous, sad, and ironic part is that you act like them, you are their mirror image, but I don't know if you are too stupid/oblivious to see it lol.

[Neosutra]

So good and evil is common sense and everyone that disagrees with you is stupid. You are such a hypocrit.

[Jefe]

So good and evil is common sense and everyone that disagrees with you is stupid. You are such a hypocrit.

Nope, I am calling you /points at you stupid. Why? Because you can't even differentiate between good and evil. I'm speaking w/ a person who, I'd like to believe, possess basic human ethical and moral values. Which basically means not to harm another fellow human being and so on etc.

[Kuya]

I've never seen these arguments before.

[Cow_k]

I've never seen these arguments before.

But yet the problems still exist~

[Neosutra]

Im sorry Meteora, I was stupid to have doubted your infalable argument of "just because" and "you're stupid neo".

My bad.