War on Christmas 08

[Neosutra]

Hey, lets get into another 5 page argument over the definition of atheism and agnostism. Because theist LOVE to tell atheist what they believe.

And to demo: All joking aside, many theist find the even the very idea that their isnt a god offensive, so it isnt suprising that they view almost all atheists as pushy extremists, even if that person is only stating facts.

[Eratosthenes]

I don't think so Tim.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can't simultaneously believe the truth is unknowable and believe you have it anyway.

[Beckwin]

as previously stated in this thread, 50% of atheists have "that guy" syndrome. When they open their mouth about anything regarding religion, everyone rolls their eyes no matter what they believe, just like they do when psycho-religious people talk about gays

Since we're gonna make ridiculous generalizations based off of boogeymen, than I'll proclaim that the other 50% are weak-kneed Uncle Toms who everyone rolls their eyes at when they start apologetic ramblings about theism, just like conservatives who try to tell people Bush isn't really all that bad.

[Beckwin]

Preaching atheism would only be hypocritical if it was about free thinking and open-mindedness. Atheism is a specific belief, and is not the same as telling people that they are free to think what they want to think. Atheists insist that there are no gods. To suggest that there may be would be blasphemy.

au contraire, atheism is not a specific belief, it's merely the lack of another belief.

On the other hand, preaching free thinking and forcing people to be open minded would defeat the purpose.

This jumps right into the "omg ur intolerant of intolerance" fallacy that someone mentioned earlier.

[Stiker]

I wonder how a hardcore Christian (Christianity being the majority in the United States) would react to the response of "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" to his or her "Merry Christmas".

I don't know if I qualify so much as "hardcore" Christian, but if that happened to me I could really care less. Someone just well-wished me, why should I start shoving sand in my vag?

In contrast, if someone told me they didn't celebrate Christmas and I happened to wish them a merry Christmas by mistake, I'll correct myself and wish them well in whatever holiday they celebrate or a general happy holidays. I could care less. Like I said, it is extending a well wish of joy and something rather stupid to get upset over and the original intent of wishing someone well will come through no matter what I end up having to say.

Believe what you want, but be kind if you wish to correct someone. No need to shit on anyone's beliefs when the statement has zero intended harm attached to it.

tl;dr - The "war" on Christmas is heavily overblown on any side.

[Jefe]

Some of you need the chill the fuck out, srsly. t('-'t)

[Beckwin]

also I think it's pretty funny that people simultaneously complain that christmas is too commercialized and too offensively religious

you act like both aspects can't be problems simultaneous, or that both aspects aren't used as means to the same end.

[guartz]

Just ask, "what's a god?" and follow up by "how do you know god has attributes x,y,z ?"

[Stiker]

Just ask, "what's a god?" and follow up by "how do you know god has attributes x,y,z ?"

Response: Faith.

And then you will be going in circles at that point. Atheist will want more logical and concrete response and anyone that believes in any kind of god will believe faith as a perfectly fine response. You won't be going anywhere and both sides will think they are right.

[Beckwin]

Faith? YouTube - George Michael - Faith

ok I concede, there probably is a God.

[Mizango]

Paradoxes abound!

[Kuya]

Atheism means lack of a belief in a god, if we go by what the word actually says, the meaning that we attribute it and how we use it may vary.

[guartz]

Response: Faith.

And then you will be going in circles at that point. Atheist will want more logical and concrete response and anyone that believes in any kind of god will believe faith as a perfectly fine response. You won't be going anywhere and both sides will think they are right.

I never heard anyone respond to "What is God" as "Faith".

If they do, then you really can't argue that God (aka faith) doesn't exist.

Most religious people don't really consider what attributes God has. Just that he's a consciousness outside(above?) space and time.

The best way to approach that is to ask whether they believe if things that exist in their minds also exist in reality.

Like for example, I can think of a pink elephant, and I got it to an exact detail in my mind. The trunk, the skin texture everything, a prada hand bag. etc You can't see him because he only chooses to be seen by some. etc

Then you ask, how do I know that pink elephant exists outside my mind? Most religious people are not completely retarded, so they will usually do the argument against God for you.

And if they don't, well now you have a deity who is much more fashionable and stronger then they do.

[Stiker]

I never heard anyone respond to "What is God" as "Faith".

If they do, then you really can't argue that God (aka faith) doesn't exist.

Most religious people don't really consider what attributes God has. Just that he's a consciousness outside(above?) space and time.

The best way to approach that is to ask whether they believe if things that exist in their minds also exist in reality.

Like for example, I can think of a pink elephant, and I got it to an exact detail in my mind. The trunk, the skin texture everything, a prada hand bag. etc You can't see him because he only chooses to be seen by some. etc

Then you ask, how do I know that pink elephant exists outside my mind? Most religious people are not completely retarded, so they will usually do the argument against God for you.

And if they don't, well now you have a deity who is much more fashionable and stronger then they do.

I was referring more to the second part of your question of "how do you know that God has x, y, z attributes". As far as religion of any kind goes, there are certain limits that logic, as you described, has. There comes a point to where the eventual answer to question will ultimately boil down to faith. For instance, in your example of the pink elephant, I can continuously ask you questions about its existence, but it eventually boils down to a matter of faith of whether or not you believe it exists.

If religion could be proved by logic, then the term "faith" wouldn't even be needed as faith inherently is outside of logic. Philosopher's have tried to prove existence of God and have failed due to the fact their proofs would always lead to the problem of being able to prove damn near everything as in the example of your pink elephant.

The problem with proving God and faith is that ultimately the proof in the person's head tends to be on a personal level with experiences and even upbringing. One person can look at something and say that is proof of God at work and another person can say that it was a simple string of coincidences. That's why I said earlier you end up going in circles with the argument.

In the end you are either going to be looking for 100% logical proof or you are able to accept things as a matter of faith. In either case, in all likelihood, you won't be able to get either side to budge in their beliefs.

I want to make something clear. I am not trying to prove the existence of God to anyone here (in fact, I can't stand people that try to shove religion or any type of morality/beliefs down someone else's throat). I am merely trying to point out the eventual breaking point in such debates. I won't be able to prove to any atheist that God exists and no atheist is going to be able to convince me that God doesn't exist despite the logic involved.

I hope that all makes some sense.

[Maguspk]

This is simply not true although I wouldn't use the word "pervert" as that is opinion. Winter Solstice was chosen because everyone already celebrated and christianity was not nearly popular enough yet to have it's own holiday. The reasons were purely political. Why else would you celebrate a birthday months from the actual anniversary of the date of birth? There is nothing convenient about that.

Few pages late, but fuck it, I forgot about this thread and noticed replies...

Winter solstice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, like I said, it's just a holiday which was convenient for them to celebrate on without being condemned since the religion was in it's infancy and the Romans held festivities on that day anyway. As if condemning the holiday itself wasn't bad enough now people are trying to claim Christians stole it from the pagans, as if it's wrong to have a popular holiday permeate your life so much that you incorporate it into your "up and coming" holiday.

It isn't a unique case either, similar situations involve Easter (Eostre) and it's pagan roots along with the Christian's, Attis and Cybele in ancient Rome, America's Halloween versus the Celtic one, the list goes on, it's just how society works.

[Neosutra]

no atheist is going to be able to convince me that God doesn't exist despite the logic involved.

The above statement is why I have such low respect for the theist mentality.

[Stiker]

So no matter the evidence against the theist case, you will never alter the viewpoints you were told when you were 5?

Openminded much?

Actually quite. Really wasn't fully convinced or even really committed to a particular faith until much later in life.

Also, I fully understand the logical evidence against the theist case. I never once in my post said it didn't make any sense.

EDIT: Hey Neo, way to completely alter your post.

[Seraph]

The above statement is why I have such low respect for the theist mentality.

For those who believe, no proof is required. For those who doubt, no proof is ever enough.

Both sides of this arguement are stuborn assholes, so I wouldn't respect one mindset more than the other. Both faith and logic are both important human traits. Trying to suggest one is more important than the other is a tough concept to float.


Edit: And the best logical approach I have ever heard to this is the agnostic one. "I don't fucking know" is the correct answer to the god/higher power question. Anyone who suggests they know otherwise is full of shit. This is where 'belief' comes in. People start trying to fill in the gaps in their knowledge to the best of thair ability.

[Neosutra]

Sorry about that, wanted to change my post from a direct insult to your openmindedness to a general explaination for why I dont respect theist views...

But now that I think about it, both are probably equally offensive.

Im glad to hear you are openminded, but I cant help to feel bad that you really think NO evidence is possible to ever change your current perspective.

[Demosthenes11]

Since we're gonna make ridiculous generalizations based off of boogeymen, than I'll proclaim that the other 50% are weak-kneed Uncle Toms who everyone rolls their eyes at when they start apologetic ramblings about theism, just like conservatives who try to tell people Bush isn't really all that bad.

I don't know how what I said is wrong. When you hear religious people preach and say you are damned, you roll your eyes. When you hear someone preaching about how there is no god and all that believe it are stupid, you roll your eyes. Ok, maybe not you, but normal people.

Extremist either way is annoying as hell. Let people believe what they want and get off any high horse you have about your beliefs