Games that are not RPGs

[Metah]

Kingdom Hearts is an action RPG. There is no way around it.
Fire Emblem could be considered an RPG because it is turn based and strategic, but also contains leveling up and etc. Its not a stretch to call it at least part RPG.
I've never played Fallout, I can't define it.
Final Fantasy Dissidia is not even out yet, but I wouldn't call it fighter alone.

Troll BRP is troll, I'm gonna rate this thread 3/10

[Melena]

Maybe because this thread serves no point other than to start a retarded argument that won't go anywhere.
How about that?


I actually agree with you here but I can see that nothing will come of this thread.
Nothing good anyway.

BRP starting a retard argument thread? Blasphemy I say!

[Kohan]

Whatever you do, just don't use the term "adventure" incorrectly. Too many people apply it to games where you actually go on an adventure (e.g., a Klonoa title), but the genre is actually very specific. If it isn't strongly reminiscent of its point-and-click ancestors in one way or another, it isn't an adventure game.

An adventure game is a type of video game characterized by investigation, exploration, puzzle-solving, interaction with game characters, and a focus on narrative rather than reflex-based challenges. The term originates from the 1970s game Adventure,[1][2] and retains a narrow definition based on the style of gameplay, and not the theme or subject matter (unlike adventure films and adventure novels).

The Zelda titles definitely are action RPGs, as they cannot be adventure games because they aren't dialogue-based. I'm unfamiliar with "Fallout 3" as I've never played it, but I am going to assume it too cannot be classified as adventure and is also an action RPG.

[Correction]

Saying Fallout 3 isn't an RPG is pretty much rusting away the rest of your argument.

Branching story
Bonus story favor scattered across the game just for the sake of giving depth to a game world.
Level progression
Character customization
Character skill synergy
Exploration and discovery

These are things all computer RPGs have in common, and because Fallout 3 has, what, guns and really only one ending, it's not an RPG?

Try harder next time.

[Shuemue]

Branching story
Bonus story favor scattered across the game just for the sake of giving depth to a game world.
Level progression
Character customization
Character skill synergy
Exploration and discovery

You just made Fallout 3 sound really appealing, I'll have to grab a copy.

[Kyo]

Saying Fallout 3 isn't an RPG is pretty much rusting away the rest of your argument.

Branching story
Bonus story favor scattered across the game just for the sake of giving depth to a game world.
Level progression
Character customization
Character skill synergy
Exploration and discovery

These are things all computer RPGs have in common, and because Fallout 3 has, what, guns and really only one ending, it's not an RPG?

Try harder next time.

^

I honestly have no clue how he can say Fallout 3 isnt an RPG, even if you used FPS as an arguement it still goes off of stats and character progression on how well you use the weapons in the game, a strong characteristic of an RPG.

[TheDirtyHobo]

BRP starting a retard argument thread? Blasphemy I say!

People don't understand the difference between an argument and a discussion. He's not arguing that "you guys are all stupid for thinking game-x is an RPG", he's stating his opinion on what should be considered an RPG and what shouldn't be an RPG, and asking for civil debate about what others think as well.

I do have to disagree about Fallout 3 not being an RPG, though. It's more of an RPG in the traditional sense of the phrase than things like the Final Fantasy series, and though it's got shooter elements, it's still largely based on skill progression and your own decisions in the world, much like the older tabletop games.

Kingdom Hearts I have a harder time justifying as an RPG, but a harder time dismissing as well. It's got RPG elements in it, but it's also an action/adventure game, so I think the title of action-RPG suits it well, since it fits squarely into neither.

[Correction]

It's a retard argument thread any way you slice it.

Games borrow concepts and mechanics from each other all the time. Kingdom Hearts borrowed the 'group level up and magic' experience from RPG games, but at its core it is an action game with level progression and group dynamic elements.

What BRP wants to do is create a litmus test and bisect all of gamedom into 'RPG' and 'NOT RPG' buckets based on some pretty dumb criteria. Yeah some games will fall neatly into these buckets but a lot will not, and that's the crack he left wide open to create Just Another Flame Thread. There is no good way to sort all games by someone's arbitrary filter, and what is perceived as enough of an RPG to be a 'core' RPG is going to differ from person to person. People who realize at least this much are going to bristle at 'Fallout 3 is an FPS/Adventure,' because it's rubbish.

[Charla]

I think the most important thing to remember about genre labels is that they're only labels, and that even though the majority of games can probably be placed in one or another, that doesn't mean that games which exhibit qualities of multiple genres "belong" to one genre and only borrow additional qualities. If one label can be applied to one game, it's just as valid to apply multiple labels.

[Kohan]

I think the most important thing to remember about genre labels is that they're only labels, and that even though the majority of games can probably be placed in one or another, that doesn't mean that games which exhibit qualities of multiple genres "belong" to one genre and only borrow additional qualities. If one label can be applied to one game, it's just as valid to apply multiple labels.

It is actually a lot easier to categorize games than you make it sound. Usually, the dominant trait determines the primary category while the second most apparent trait adds the sub-category. For example, the oft-mentioned "Action RPG" genre includes games which have real time battle systems, and RPG elements. Those titles which include real time combat include FPS, and action games in general.

Even if a platformer has RPG elements, it fits into the "Platformer" genre because first and foremost that's what it is. It's not a platform RPG or an action RPG, it is a platformer.

A FPS with no real storyline, completely linear level progression, and a smidgen of RPG elements (e.g., upgrading guns, leveling up) is an FPS. It does not have enough additional elements nor enough exploration to justify calling it an action RPG.

It is really not complicated. I don't know why people still say it is.

[Correction]

Deus Ex was a...horrorfirstpersonshooterdrivenbyrpgelements

Actraiser was a...sidescrollingplatformwithacitybuildingminigame

Rez was a...thirdpersonrailshooterwithrhythmgameelements

Maybe it's easy a lot of the time, but every now and then games transcend genres.

[Charla]

Correction beat me to it. The majority of games are easy to label, but a few start disagreements about what genre to call them. Of course, it all becomes easy if you don't restrict the system to one or two words.

Actraiser was two games in one, so I prefer to call it half simulation and half platformer. I never played the other two. And of course Actraiser 2 dropped all the simulation elements, so it's just a platformer.

[MisterBob]

Can we add the Zelda series to this list? Thanks.

[Shuemue]

Can we add the Zelda series to this list? Thanks.

You didn't read the thread, did you?

[Souj]

every game is a RPG. you are playing the ROLE of the main character. you are PLAYING the game. and it is a GAME.

I win the internet.

[Mayareira]

Fallout/Oblivion are RPGs that you get to play from first person camera perspective... they have nothing to do with FPSs.

[Kohan]

Deus Ex was a...horrorfirstpersonshooterdrivenbyrpgelements

Actraiser was a...sidescrollingplatformwithacitybuildingminigame

Rez was a...thirdpersonrailshooterwithrhythmgameelements

Maybe it's easy a lot of the time, but every now and then games transcend genres.

It's always easy. "Deus EX" is an action RPG. "Actraiser" is an action RPG (though it's also been called an action sim). "Rez" is a music game.

As aforementioned, it depends upon the primary traits of the game. Classifying them is not hard. Just because a game dabbles in multiple genres does not mean it can be filed under all of them. The nuances are unimportant when it comes to classification.

[Correction]

Except that what is going on in this thread is not an appeal for classification, it's an appeal for exclusion. I would not exclude Deus EX from being an RPG simply because there are FPS run and gun elements to it, etc.

[BRP]

Yeah, there are games above genres. I don't believe any of the four I mentioned are this though. I am willing to admit out of all four of them Fallout 3 is the most likely to fall under the RPG. Why I don't consider it so has less to do the one ending or any similar criticism(like "guns".) I would even go as far as to admit that it is practically a RPG, but that doesn't help defining RPGs any.

I would seldom bring up the actual role-playing / story-driven elements when discussing a RPG. This is a can of worms. You see the only thing a game like Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy have in common is that they are both judged by dice rolls. These dice rolls receive modifiers and the entire strategy of the game is to use these modifiers to the best of your ability. Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest has no merit in the branching storyline area, but just about every jrpg is based on this standard. If we call Final Fantasy a RPG, I don't think branching storyline or similar elements are going to be a deciding factor at all.

What I do see in every RPG is the reliance on dice rolls which is put in place to mimic table top Role-Playing Games.

Also though I don't know where to put this, but if you went and played a game of Dungeon and Dragons that consisted of almost no role-playing elements and was basically a simple dungeon crawl it would still be dungeon and dragons. Still a RPG game.


Now an Action-RPG is probably the biggest issue here. I firmly believe there is no "Action-RPG" genre. It is an oxymoron in a sense. You have games based on dice rolls and their modifiers, but what happens when you take away the dice rolls? You have game that "looks" like a RPG because it has modifiers. When it comes down to it is argued because the modifiers(leveling and stats) are still there.

See the problem with this is that leveling and being stat based(which all games are really, but lets say more stat based than usual) is that this is just natural progression for many genres. You can put leveling in any game really, may it be driving or shooting based. And people are doing this and they have been for a very long time. Only they are instead called "Power-ups." Megaman, Zelda, and so on all have this. Leveling is only a structure for these power-ups. When you level up in Dungeon and Dragons(lets use 4E) you get a hit points, higher skill bonus, a new power, and maybe you found a cool sword on the way. In Megaman you find Health capsules and you get a new robot power after defeating a Robot Master.

This is something that becoming more and more common with this generation. People like to level up just like people liked to find new weapons in Zelda. Look at Resistance 2, Call of Duty 4, and Killzone 2. These all have classes with power ups you earn through experience points. More and more games are going get a leveling system because it is a profitable way to frame rewards and power-ups. The success of a game like WoW is going to make this concrete.

Now are all of these games RPGs? Are they Shooting-RPGs, Platformer-RPGs, etc-RPGs. I believe not. I believe that you need to have a stronger set of rules to define this genre. Or else you suffer from everything single game with anything beyond stage progression becoming a RPG.


But it is difficult isn't it? I know why though. Because its based on something that can play all other genres. In a game like True20, you can drive a car or space ship, or you can slay a dragon or zombie with a sword or a shotgun, or you can solve puzzles with "skills" or paper handouts. It is like making a "Super Nintendo" genre. If it plays like a Super Nintendo game then its apart of the Super Nintendo genre. But then... every game would be in this genre unless you went out of your way to prevent that. That's the problem with RPGs. Even if they are misnomer to begin with, RPG games need to have something in common here.

And if you do set some rules you end up cutting out a lot of new games. Like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and Fallout 3. Even if you are firm on the subject of them being RPGs you can see why would someone argue that they could be called FPS even if only partially(only with more focus on melee and fireballs instead of bullets in the case of ES.) I believe I know why this happens too.

Previously I said RPGs are purposely flawed in order to mimic table tops. Video Games can have things based on dexterity and physical input. This gives us the ability to do something more amazing than rolling dice and pretend doing it: You can actually do it within a virtual environment. It is not really surprising that the video game method would be more popular. Through either realization of this or being able to overcome technical limitations RPG games are now more focused on being good video games than mimicking table tops. Is the RPG genre not losing its purpose to begin with? It was always a flawed concept, but now is it becoming more obvious?

Out of curiosity, BRP, what would you consider Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit? To me, I wouldn't consider it an RPG, but I also wouldn't consider it action/adventure.

It is a genre splitting game. I don't know where to put it. Same with Deus Ex actually.

An adventure game is a type of video game characterized by investigation, exploration, puzzle-solving, interaction with game characters, and a focus on narrative rather than reflex-based challenges.

(quoting Kohan's definition)

This sounds exactly like Fallout 3 to me. It also sounds like Zelda is more of adventure game than a RPG if nothing else.

Games borrow concepts and mechanics from each other all the time. Kingdom Hearts borrowed the 'group level up and magic' experience from RPG games, but at its core it is an action game with level progression and group dynamic elements.

I believe you are half-right. While games do borrow from each other, what's more important is that games are going to evolve in certain ways no matter other genres. Also I don't believe level progression and group based combat make it any more of RPG.

I think the most important thing to remember about genre labels is that they're only labels, and that even though the majority of games can probably be placed in one or another, that doesn't mean that games which exhibit qualities of multiple genres "belong" to one genre and only borrow additional qualities. If one label can be applied to one game, it's just as valid to apply multiple labels.

That's a good point, but I think that useless or broad genres are still a bad idea. Leveling(or powering up/avatar development/so on) alone shouldn't be considered a genre because it is a common game mechanic that doesn't really change the way the game plays. Driving games involve driving, shooting games involve shooting, but leveling games are more than "leveling." You shoot you level, you solve puzzles or strategy battles you level, you beat up monster you level. When it comes down to it, people are calling games RPGs because they have the power-ups in the shape of leveling.

[Kohan]

I have to say that I don't see what's so difficult about it. As aforementioned, games are classified based on what their primary traits are. "Fallout 3" is not an adventure game because significant aspects of it, if I remember correctly, are "reflex-based" (to pull a term from the accurate Wikipedia description). It is not strictly an RPG because the aforementioned pen-and-paper inspiration for this genre did not involve any real-time action, but Fallout has that. So because the most apparent and immediately accessible aspect of it is its movement and combat systems, and its RPG elements are the strongest secondary element, it is an action RPG.

"Deus EX" is instantly plopped into the same category for the exact same reason. As previously mentioned, the little things don't matter when it comes to classification. The most obvious components of the gaming experience define its label. "Katamari Damacy" is a puzzle game because you have to solve a problem within a time limit (or with a similar restriction applied); Zelda is an action RPG for reasons mentioned on the first page, and so on.

Look at Resistance 2, Call of Duty 4, and Killzone 2. These all have classes with power ups you earn through experience points. More and more games are going get a leveling system because it is a profitable way to frame rewards and power-ups. The success of a game like WoW is going to make this concrete.

Now are all of these games RPGs? Are they Shooting-RPGs, Platformer-RPGs, etc-RPGs. I believe not.

No, they're not. They're FPS. The EXP-gaining systems are apparent and useful but -- as I believe your argument alluded to -- are similar to more basic leveling-up systems. Users do not have to calculate anything, and nothing is really relegated to a virtual "roll of the dice." The RPG-like elements are streamlined so greatly that they only resemble their source in the vaguest of ways, which is why they're not considered in the classification process. Simple as that.