Post some Screenshots!

[Khelek]

And that proves.....what exactly? <.< Doesn't change the fact that the WotF nerf made it pretty much useless.

[Correction]

Will of the Forsaken went from 'not as good as other racials' to 'near useless?' I think people are overstating the power levels between races. To me 'underpowered' means you're doing a significant margin worse than other races based on your race alone, not your skill/gear levels. Berserking/Blood Fury don't add hundreds of thousands of damage to meters.

[Khelek]

Will of the Forsaken went from 'not as good as other racials' to 'near useless?' I think people are overstating the power levels between races. To me 'underpowered' means you're doing a significant margin worse than other races based on your race alone, not your skill/gear levels. Berserking/Blood Fury don't add hundreds of thousands of damage to meters.

But they can win you an arena match. As could the old Will of the Forsaken. It was a good racial imo, only because it didn't share cooldowns with pvp trinkets. but then they made it share the cooldown without making it do the same thing? humans have it, why not just copy it for undead if they want there to be only one ability?

[Onorgul]

I'm not going to claim that Will of the Forsaken is useless. If nothing else, on bosses that AoE fear, it lets me feel comfortable throwing Fear Ward onto the tank or healer since I can break Fear on myself. At issue, though, is how far it has fallen. For a long time, it was the premier racial ability, balanced against the fact that Undead get the lowest stat spread of any race, a moderate reputation penalty (talking vanilla here where there was no rep overflow), and nothing much else. I get mileage out of Cannibalize and extended underwater breath, but I'd never choose a race for those any more than I'd pick Human for increased Stealth detection.

As time as gone on, though, Will of the Forsaken has been turned from a brief immunity to certain effects into a one-time trinket. Meanwhile, some of the legitimately underpowered racials like Berserking, Blood Fury, and Shadowmeld were made useful and Arcane Torrent was retuned to be less irritating to use. When you start comparing the long list of shit that Humans now have to what the Forsaken are left clinging to, it's hard not to feel a bit underpowered. I look at the racials for Gnomes, Dwarves, and Tauren, and wonder if they're not feeling the same way from time to time. Blizzard has trouble finding a real balancing point, they just keep careening back and forth around it and hoping to someday nail it.

We're talking about small factors here, though, and ones that largely only show themselves in PvP (which is very obviously what racial abilities are balanced around). It's like comparing the value of various tradeskills in terms of one's class/spec. Yeah, I'd actually probably do better to be JC/Chanting instead of Tailor/Chanting, but the difference is pretty nominal and I'm sure as hell not dropping my hard-earned Tailoring skill and various unusual (and useless, these days) patterns just for a .001% increase.

[Meresgi]

Human racial frees up a trinket slot, that gives them a huge advantage in pvp. Arena team charts dont mean jack shit and have never meant shit.

[Plow]

wow you guys are silly


EMFH is actualy on the *same* cooldown as trinket, not a separated 45 second grace period.


Breaking every other fear instead of 1/4 is utterly devastating to a priest. Dealing with DR on top of breaks twice a minute is an enormous struggle for a warlock.


I'm sure you guys all know better than all the top players in the world though, they obviously all chose undead when they swapped (if you actually know who the people up there are, you'd be aware most of them used to be alliance) because they're idiots that don't know what they're doing.


Silly bastards thinking extra abilities are better than the proc on a trinket. What nubs.

Human racial frees up a trinket slot, that gives them a huge advantage in pvp.

Human racial frees up a *HALF* a trinket slot. Sorry, nobody's running around with level 19 trinkets that break cc and do absolutely nothing else.

Arena team charts dont mean jack shit and have never meant shit.

You're right, when EVERYONE at the top is using the exact same thing, it's totally meaningless.

I'm sure you wouldn't give it any credit if every single person in the top 20 with human available was using human, right?

But they can win you an arena match. As could the old Will of the Forsaken. It was a good racial imo, only because it didn't share cooldowns with pvp trinkets. but then they made it share the cooldown without making it do the same thing? humans have it, why not just copy it for undead if they want there to be only one ability?

WotF can still win you an arena match, you just can't use it as a preempt during kills or chain it with trinket and DR to give you ~30 seconds of cc immunity.

Methinks (well, no, meknows!) some people don't appreciate how fucking massive an extra fear break can be when games can go from intense to done in a matter of a couple globals and 10 seconds is an absolute eternity for a healer to recover.

Meanwhile for the human racial you guys are claiming is so fantastic, you essentially have to get someone to <5% and have them live to even attempt to claim emfh could have made a significant difference.


What's really sad is this isn't even a point in time where fear is nearly as dominating as it has been in the past (outside rmp, which even that isn't as huge as it has been before), and yet it's still *the* racial of choice for top players, period. And people still manage to convince themselves it's no good.

[Onorgul]

Correlation does not imply causation. All those players who swapped from Alliance to Horde (and we can probably assume that they were Human previously if they'd rolled those toons after 3.0) were probably not doing it to get access to Will of the Forsaken. Like it or not, Alliance players are generally easy to beat because Alliance players are generally less skilled. Jumping over to the winning side and picking up your quarter-trinket is a reasonable trade-off from your half-trinket.

Honestly, though, people irritated by the changes to Will of the Forsaken are not all PvP players. I only PvP once in a while in order to complete some achievement or to work on my mount collection (which is sort of the same thing), I've never even set foot in Arena, and I am still bugged that WotF is not the racial that I rolled my character for. Not that I could stand playing a Troll, but had I been given the choice between 3.0 Berserking and 3.0 Will of the Forsaken, I'd have taken the former, and that's purely from a PvE standpoint.

[Plow]

Correlation does not imply causation. All those players who swapped from Alliance to Horde (and we can probably assume that they were Human previously if they'd rolled those toons after 3.0) were probably not doing it to get access to Will of the Forsaken. Like it or not, Alliance players are generally easy to beat because Alliance players are generally less skilled. Jumping over to the winning side and picking up your quarter-trinket is a reasonable trade-off from your half-trinket.

wow, just wow

I'm not talking about a bunch of random people that went horde because in their battlegroup horde win. I'm talking about the best players in the world, a huge chunk of which transferred to one spot to play together/against each other, and they "just happened" to all go undead if possible.

Not to mention, referring to woft as a quarter-trinket is just plain dumb, let me know where I can get the trinket that breaks a fear in between pvp trinket cooldowns. Apparently you're not understanding why I'm talking about emfh as a half trinket, so I'll spell it out: all the pvp trinkets with the emfh effect now have base stats or a proc in addition. So, you can choose between stat + emfh or proc + emfh, as compared to human which gets stat+proc. It's literally a half a trinket now.

Also human was better before 3.0, when getting a rogue out of stealth was humanly possible and perception was crazy strong.

Honestly, though, people irritated by the changes to Will of the Forsaken are not all PvP players. I only PvP once in a while in order to complete some achievement or to work on my mount collection (which is sort of the same thing), I've never even set foot in Arena, and I am still bugged that WotF is not the racial that I rolled my character for. Not that I could stand playing a Troll, but had I been given the choice between 3.0 Berserking and 3.0 Will of the Forsaken, I'd have taken the former, and that's purely from a PvE standpoint.

... try taking pve complaints about racials to a dwarf, gnome, or even draenei or ne

[Khelek]

Plow, did you miss the WotF nerf? It's got the same cooldown as EMFH now, along with the trinkets. You can no longer use it in between trinket uses.

Before nerf: amazing
After nerf: completely worthless for PVP and only somewhat useful for PVE.

[Plow]

WotF is on a separate cooldown from pvp trinkets, they just can't be used within 45 seconds of each other.

EMFH is on the same actual cooldown.

Tremendous difference there.

[Meresgi]

If you'd take WoTF over a free trinket slot, seeing as the bonus trinket if it's a good one like Deathbringer can do a lot more then bonus fear break, as the DR sets in after 2-3 now and the only person that should be able to get a fear off should be a priest as a warlock should be focused for interrupt.

[Onorgul]

... try taking pve complaints about racials to a dwarf, gnome, or even draenei or ne

Depends a whole lot on class, there. Draenei Priests aren't excited at having a built-in HoT, but Hunters and Warriors and even Paladins appreciate it. A flat 2% Dodge makes Night Elf one of the better Warrior options (beats the hell out of most Horde options, anyhow). Gnomes deserve to be punted, so it's hard to sympathize with them. And, anyhow, I pointed out a few posts up that Dwarf, Gnome, and Tauren should probably be feeling a little neglected at the moment along with us Forsaken.

Most of your arguments about PvP are rather all-over-the-place, though. You see value in pretty much everyone's racial abilities regardless of how valuable they actually were or are. Perception was awesome? Sure, if you knew you'd be facing a Rogue (or kitty) and blew it at the right time. I'm sure that's useful enough in Arena matches, but it was a coin toss anywhere else.

[Plow]

If you'd take WoTF over a free trinket slot, seeing as the bonus trinket if it's a good one like Deathbringer can do a lot more then bonus fear break, as the DR sets in after 2-3 now and the only person that should be able to get a fear off should be a priest as a warlock should be focused for interrupt.

Deathbringer is a bit of an exception right now as it's just ridiculous atm, being 40 ilevels higher than the wg ones.

Even still, it's an uncontrollable proc (love getting sheeped while DV proc is up), and is simply a temporary increase in damage.

A temporary increase in damage is absolutely nowhere remotely near as strong as going from 10+ seconds of no damage to 1 second of no damage.

It's not competitive with 2 full seconds of aoe silence instantly either, but that's another story.


For most people what emfh results in is using a resil + proc/use trinket instead of a resil + cc break trinket. Else a stat + proc instead of a stat + cc break.

Again, it's not a "free trinket slot," it's allowing you to use a slightly more effective trinket than you would otherwise.


Also, I'm pretty sure priest are still #1 representation across all 3 brackets, so attempting to dismiss it as "only against priests" is just silly. Not to mention, pretending locks can never get fears off under any circumstances is ridiculous as well. It also does a nice job of countering a long cd from a warrior while leaving you free to trinket a cyclone.

Depends a whole lot on class, there. Draenei Priests aren't excited at having a built-in HoT, but Hunters and Warriors and even Paladins appreciate it. A flat 2% Dodge makes Night Elf one of the better Warrior options (beats the hell out of most Horde options, anyhow). Gnomes deserve to be punted, so it's hard to sympathize with them. And, anyhow, I pointed out a few posts up that Dwarf, Gnome, and Tauren should probably be feeling a little neglected at the moment along with us Forsaken.

Most of your arguments about PvP are rather all-over-the-place, though. You see value in pretty much everyone's racial abilities regardless of how valuable they actually were or are. Perception was awesome? Sure, if you knew you'd be facing a Rogue (or kitty) and blew it at the right time. I'm sure that's useful enough in Arena matches, but it was a coin toss anywhere else.

No, nobody that's serious about PvE gives a fuck about a 3 minute cooldown shitty hot. Current boss design also dictates tauren is vastly superior to NE for tanking, and NE is the only other real tanking racial.


As far as perception, lol, apparently you don't realize how good perception used to be. Granted, it wasn't old school WotF 30 second immunity OP, but really against a rogue at high end it was just as bad. I used to run in the top 10 in 3's with me human pally, a human lock, and either a NE rogue or a human war... realizing there was a stealthy pretty much meant we were going to win.


Really I'm not trying to be elitist here or whatever, but nobody cares how a racial performs while grinding dailies or battlegrounds. People care how they perform in shit where it actually matters.

[NotGreyheim]

Hey, screenshot thread... remember?

Spoilered for broken tables

Spoiler: show

http://www.imagebeast.net/images/psx...3e9u7pn06c.jpg

[Kytele]

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8265/bayl.th.jpg


I for one lol'd

[Thuronn]

That's pretty funny.

God those were the days, killing giraffes and goblins all day for 4-6k an hour! People always serious about light/dark skillchains.

[Izzy]

I've never done that quest. Are they actually picking at FFXI? lol

[Plow]

I don't see any way that it's making fun of it, but I don't know of any other Bibiki Bay lol.

[Onorgul]

I had to look it up, but what it does is simply use your character name and attach "Bay" at the end. I was doing a double-take since I've done that quest in the past couple days and certainly didn't remember seeing an FFXI reference. In the case of my Warrior, he suggested "Archain Bay."

[Plow]

Man most of the s8 stuff is ugly as all hell but...

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...30_shields.jpg

zomggg want