Kuno's awesome SMN post

[Ahlah]

The reason SMN is near the bottom of the list for those events as DD/buffer now is b/c it's too friggen slow to do anything well in the frequent and short fights these events center around (Except salvage which it additionally needs a sizeable cell investment to be decent). By dropping out the BP timer (which is essentially what you're doing, b/c why leave a pet out when its usually better to release>resummon>BP) speed DD'ing capabilities skyrocket and the job gets that more appealing for these events.

It's still a bad idea to reset timers after dismissal.

Seriously have you actually participated in those events as SMN before? BLM can do spike damge, BLM don't have 1 min timer like SMN, the reason why BLM is not a popular job in Salvage/Nyzul Isle/merit party is because they are limited by mp pool, it has nothing to do with how fast they can cast their spells. The reason why meleeburn is popular in those events is because party is constantly moving and there is no time to rest for mp. Hell ppl don't even need a proper tank in those events, not even a NIN tank who can easily outparse a SMN with or without BP timer reset.

Getting rid of timers is unreasonable; the idea isn't to break the job, it's to make it a more desirable choice. That certainly would do it, but that not really the idea.

How exactly will getting rid of timers AFTER dismissal break SMN? Because you can now cast stoneskinga and phalanxga back to back when SCH can already do it every 1min and spend far less mp? Because you can burn 4 lv70 BP over short period of time which is what most BLMs have been doing? It's unreasonable if SMN are allowed to do it without dimissing their avatar. Ppl who play SMN and BST should realise every sinlge DD job has moved on and pet jobs still remain largely unchanged. SE added 30% xp cut and BP timer to maintain game balance, they removed xp cut because it's no longer necessary. Even without BP timer it will still take considerable amount of effort to put SMN in merit/endgame activities.

[Ninjiz]

Not that im asking for BP timers to be totally erased,
(I Still stick by every BP timer should have its own recast)
But a lot of you havnt the slightest clue on what would "break" smn.

[Guppy]

Heh we were doing stuff like that back in the day too.

Waaah! I've had the Waking the Beast quest just sitting incomplete, with a full set of elemental eyes. I wasn't playing much when it was first introduced, and now that interest has died out, nobody does pickups for it anymore...

LLLLAWWWWWSGHHGGH*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAbiu >????>?>?>?>??????????C>/>?>>>>>>>>>

Bet this somehow contains the secret to beating Absolute Virtue.

[Kenji]

No as an individual I will not convince thousands of people to suddenly pick a role and go full steed with it.

I suggest you read this again. Then again. Then once more. And go back and read your posts. Because this is *exactly* what you have been saying all along.

Up until this point, your posts have been deriding SMNs for suggesting fixes. Your entire post history in this thread, has been dedicated to saying all SMNs should get behind one role. Yet you supposedly know this won't work and won't happen.

So, in essence, you know your idea was bad while saying it, thus, your entire posting was pointless. Dude, just drop it. People from all jobs have had varied suggestions. Some they get, and some they don't. Making suggestions from varied role ideas hasn't hurt them at all, and it won't affect SMN.


Anyway, erasing BP timers isn't the issue so much. It won't fix SMN. I actually like the drawbacks of casting time, positioning and BP timers. SMN, in a group, should have that delay as a unique aspect. Also, given the amount of -BP gear in the game, SE is *not* going to get rid of the BP timer. Too much is invested in it. Instead, we should look at avenues where they could make tweaks and not affect what they already have in other parts of the game.

The catch is that the BP's should be fairly powerful, and thus worth the delay. We're spending a lot of MP and time here.

For Wards, the problem is that the buffs are generally not worth the mp spent. You can increase potency, or increase duration so we can get more buffs up. Increasing potency, always runs the risk of being overpowered, but if you look at BRD and COR buffs, it's clear SMN's are weaker. Increase potency to at least match those jobs, possibly more. Increase duration on *all* buffs to a minimum of 5 minutes.

SMN should act as slow as it does currently, but make the BPs worth it. Let SMN's power come from stacking a ton of buffs on a group. Rolling Thunder might not make a SMN worth it, but Rolling thunder, Ecliptic Howl, Ecliptic Growl, Crimson Howl, Earthen Ward, and Hastega on at all the same time, would. A SMN who can do that, and add a physical rage every minute, would be a decent addition to a group.

Physical rages are mostly fine. Avatar melee and magical BP's aren't. You don't get a decent magic attack, until you spend 22 merit points on a single group2 ability. And max out avatar magic magic attack. While physical rages are good from the get-go. A target has to be physically immune, or an incredibly high defense, before a magic attack is better.

[Ninjiz]

Waaah! I've had the Waking the Beast quest just sitting incomplete, with a full set of elemental eyes. I wasn't playing much when it was first introduced, and now that interest has died out, nobody does pickups for it anymore...

Actually I plan to try another semi pick up. But of course with some pre conditions for those who attend lol, so this time i dont get screwed like i have been ; ;

[Yugl]

I suggest you read this again. Then again. Then once more. And go back and read your posts. Because this is *exactly* what you have been saying all along.

Maybe you can direct me to a quote where I specifically say I can convince thousands of people to pick a role and stick with it. I certainly can't find one.

Up until this point, your posts have been deriding SMNs for suggesting fixes.

No my posts were deriding SMNs for not making fixes. At the time of my original post, there hadn't been one suggestion that would actually fix what was wrong with SMN. The reason for this was because all the suggestions lacked a focal point or did not place SMN in a specified role.

Your entire post history in this thread, has been dedicated to saying all SMNs should get behind one role.

I made my posts to point out whats wrong with the suggestions that SMN are giving. I show them a means of fixing this common error by choosing a defining role then making improvements based off that role.

Yet you supposedly know this won't work and won't happen.

Will people use this method when developing suggestions for improving SMN? Maybe not, but I never said my idea will give everyone some epiphany; I just posted it as a suggestion. It may or may not happen.

So, in essence, you know your idea was bad while saying it, thus, your entire posting was pointless.

Kenji you're making less sense than ever. You're trying to suggest that my intention was to rally SMN into choosing a role, which is untrue. My intention was to point out why these suggestions that many SMNs are coming up with won't work. Why they won't work is because they don't give SMN a defining role. In fact, most of them are just improvement to current conditions of SMN. However, SMN as of how does not have a defining role and therefore, improving current conditions will not fix the problem. Thus, in order to fix SMN, it needs to have a defined role. Since the suggestions that SMN are giving do not achieve this (Aka give it a defined role), they will not fix the problem.

That is what I have been trying to say all this time. I didn't think it would take this much effort to explain such a basic concept, but I guess it does.

[Hosom]

Things I'd like to see Smn to get in the near future:

Possibly one or two more levels of Auto Refresh.
The more useful Avatars SE has been promising them since the beginning of time.
A remade way of failing at bloodpacts, the current system just fucking sucks.
A club to bludgeon the dumbass melee who say "LOL SMN IS FAIL."
Oh, and more incentive to keep their avatars out than "SE wants you to."

[Jordache]

No my posts were deriding SMNs for not making fixes. At the time of my original post, there hadn't been one suggestion that would actually fix what was wrong with SMN. The reason for this was because all the suggestions lacked a focal point or did not place SMN in a specified role.

The problem is you want a job that was designed with versatility in mind to specialize. It's not going to happen. The suggestions that have been put forward acknowledge this, though might not recognize it. Play the job as it is now, just fix what's wrong with it.

My intention was to point out why these suggestions that many SMNs are coming up with won't work. Why they won't work is because they don't give SMN a defining role. In fact, most of them are just improvement to current conditions of SMN. However, SMN as of how does not have a defining role and therefore, improving current conditions will not fix the problem. Thus, in order to fix SMN, it needs to have a defined role. Since the suggestions that SMN are giving do not achieve this (Aka give it a defined role), they will not fix the problem.

How does fixing SMN as it is now not give it a defining role? What is wrong with being versatile, could that not be a role as well? SMN is played a certain way and should be fixed in a similar manner, not "reinvented for the nineties" so to speak and you're so inclined to have happen.

[Yugl]

The problem is you want a job that was designed with versatility in mind to specialize. It's not going to happen. The suggestions that have been put forward acknowledge this, though might not recognize it. Play the job as it is now, just fix what's wrong with it.

This isn't much of an argument you're throwing at me. All you're saying is "You're wrong because it's never going to happen". Same could be said about all suggestions made in this thread since SE doesn't care what people post unless involves some glitch.

If SMN receives buffs in all three roles it's probably going to be insufficient or broken. In the former, you're in the same situation are you are currently. In the latter, you risk getting nerfed which leads back to your current situation.

Is there a problem with making SMN, which is mediocre in all its roles, take on a specific one provided it received the enhancements? Its current abilities will still be present. All that changes is people will have a reason to invite SMN apart from specific situations.

How does fixing SMN as it is now not give it a defining role?

What is its role now? Healer? DD? Nukes? Buffer? I don't see SMN filling any of those roles. It's below standard on all of them and consequently, is shunned from the community. EG and Merits alike. The only time SMN is wanted is when it can provide a unique advantage in a battle, similar to how PUP is useful for Ob.

Compare SMN's role to buckets of water. Each Bucket has a label DD, Healer, Nuke, and Buffer. If the goal is to make the heaviest bucket possible, do you put the water in one bucket or spread it out?

What is wrong with being versatile, could that not be a role as well?

If I'm hiring someone to fill a specific role in a company, do I hire someone who's an expert in that field or someone who is mediocre? Does that answer change if the person has moderate talents in unrelated fields?

SMN is played a certain way and should be fixed in a similar manner, not "reinvented for the nineties" so to speak and you're so inclined to have happen.

Well you know what, keep working with broken material.

[BRP]

Nuke is DD. Why split them up? Same thing with Buff and Heal really, it's called Support. I could understand splitting them up in reference of BRD and WHM, but a SMN's natural abilities of curing and buffing work the same way. If you increase their buffing ability you will increase their healing ability.

Also don't bring real life shit into this. Never do that. Experts? What a terrible analogy to begin with.

SMNs right now can buff and nuke(Ward and Rage) at the same time. A lot of things are preventing them from doing this effectively in many sitatuons. Fix those things. The End.

[Jordache]

If I'm hiring someone to fill a specific role in a company, do I hire someone who's an expert in that field or someone who is mediocre? Does that answer change if the person has moderate talents in unrelated fields?

That anlology is transparent at best, but I'll address it. Do I hire the person who narrowed their specializations to such a degree to be useless in near-all situations unrelated to their honed-skills or do I hire a person who could fulfill my vacancy with adequate proficiencies and still be able to be useful at a later time with minimal training? Now there are a lot of details missing that could sway that decision either way, but I would rather hire an all-round person to remain in-house then be continuously sub-contracting 'experts'.

BRP said: SMNs right now can buff and nuke(Ward and Rage) at the same time. A lot of things are preventing them from doing this effectively in many situations. Fix those things. The End.

Thank you.

[Yugl]

Nuke is DD. Why split them up?

That's made to differentiate between their magical and physical damage. Is a BLM the same as a DRK? No. If either were in need of fixing, the way you would go about it would be different for each. If BLM had a problem with dealing damage, I wouldn't work on upgrading its staff skills. If a DRK had a problem with damage dealing I wouldn't buff its nukes. Each one warrents different upgrades, which is why I separated them.

Same thing with Buff and Heal really, it's called Support. I could understand splitting them up in reference of BRD and WHM, but a SMN's natural abilities of curing and buffing work the same way. If you increase their buffing ability you will increase their healing ability.

Yes by buffer I mean a support role. They aren't quite the same, a COR can buff, yet its potential as a healer is lackluster. The only reason most supporters have access to healing is because of their sub, which supplements their ability to recover MP.

That's not true, you can implement new buffs for each avatar and still have their healing potential remain the same. Of course the nature of a support role leans it towards a healer since most have access to MP refresh. If in the process of creating SMN's decisive role it gains potential in other roles, then that's perfectly fine. Just don't expect to get sufficient buffs in all areas.

Also don't bring real life shit into this. Never do that. Experts? What a terrible analogy to begin with.

The analogies are for a clearer picture of the situation. I think the point was clear. If you need someone to fill a role, you try to get someone who best fits that role. If you can't find that ideal person to take the role, then you look for the next best option. As it currently stands, SMN isn't great in most departments. Not only is it not great, it barely performs up to standard. To prove my point, make these lists: Healer, Support, DD, Nuke, and Tank. The most desired for each would go at the top and the least desired would last. How far down the list would SMN be on each? This may vary from situation to situation, but I find that in most, the conclusion is the same.

[Kenji]

No my posts were deriding SMNs for not making fixes. At the time of my original post, there hadn't been one suggestion that would actually fix what was wrong with SMN. The reason for this was because all the suggestions lacked a focal point or did not place SMN in a specified role.

Not sure what thread you were reading. There were plenty of suggestions that would fix things.

Look, a lot of people are trying to point out where your logic goes off track. The role of a SMN is versatility. That is the role you refuse to acknowledge, when everyone else here knows it.

COR is versatile: DD and buffing.

RDM is versatile: Enfeebling, healing, buffing

SCH is versatile: Healing, nuking, buffing

Each of those jobs is functional in each role, enough to warrant a slot. It is *not* wrong to suggest enhancements to each area, if that area is lacking. It does *not* affect the chance to get anything done.

Do you work for SE? Are you psychic?

If the answer to both of these is "no" then you have no idea how the chances of getting anything changed, based on any roles, really is.

[Xno Kappa]

SMN's should get lazer beams which pew pew in great justice!

[Yugl]

Not sure what thread you were reading. There were plenty of suggestions that would fix things.

Oh really? And how many of those were posted before my original post? While you're at it you can look for a quote where I say that I can convince a thousand people to select one role for SMN.

Look, a lot of people are trying to point out where your logic goes off track. The role of a SMN is versatility. That is the role you refuse to acknowledge, when everyone else here knows it.

I acknowledge it, and I'm saying its a shitty role. "Everyone" may think that being mediocre at everything is good, but I'm pointing out that its why SMN is rejected so much. In other words, its contradictory to want mediocre versatility and expect a spot in EG or merits. If you want the latter, then select a role. If not, then enjoy the former.

COR is versatile: DD and buffing.

How many times do we have to go through this? COR is a support role. I would much rather have a COR that only rolls than a COR that only DDs. It has the capacity to do both, but support role comes first.

RDM is versatile: Enfeebling, healing, buffing

RDM used to be utterly useless before it gained access to enhancements and enfeebles such as Refresh and Gravity. Can a RDM function without enhancements and enfeebles? It *could*, but it would gimp as hell. Btw, by supporter I refer to someone who either buffs, enfeebles, or does both.

SCH is versatile: Healing, nuking, buffing

SCH is closest to this "versatile role" that you speak of. It has the ability to nuke and heal, but I wouldn't consider it a support type at all. If I'm looking for a PT support, I won't look for a SCH, I'll look for a BRD, RDM, or COR.

Again, most examples you've shown are primary classes that just happen to have supplemental traits which allow them to function for other role.

Each of those jobs is functional in each role, enough to warrant a slot

Invite a COR just to DD? You must be out of your mind. I wouldn't bother with a RDM that doesn't use his enhancements/enfeebles either.

It is *not* wrong to suggest enhancements to each area, if that area is lacking. It does *not* affect the chance to get anything done.

Look at how many departments SMNs is lacking in. Also take a look at how many areas SMNs want to fill. DD, Nuke DMG, Support, and Healer. Take SCH as an example since that's the best one you have. Will SMN see improvement to that extent in all area? If not as much improvement, will the improvements they receive be enough to legitimize their role in EG or merits.

Do you work for SE?

No.

Are you psychic?

Yes. I predicted you would make another stupid post and I was right.

[frodnonnag]

SMN's should get lazer beams which pew pew in great justice!

alexander?

[lilfoo]

here let me throw my word in:

3 new avatars: all have 10 min recast. low prep. and a ward BP that changes avatar TP x2 to smn MP (idea is near free avatar for people with good gear). these avatars can be healed by spells as well.

Alexander (Tank): 3-4 low cost BP rage moves with high hate. it takes reduced dmg and has a ward buff that heals it.

Phoenix (healer/buffer): healing BPs that are rage based. aka move that dose dmg to mob and cures PT for that much HP in range. and couple gimme buffs (attack + weak haste 10%)

X avatar name here (DD): dd oriented with decent DoT w/ en:spell (DoT is including en:spell) give it a few mediocre DD moves and a high TP BP rage that can do good dmg.

This would give SMN a buff in three categories while being penalized by large recasts and one at a time use (like SCH) and it would allow older avatars to be used where they work best while they work the best and keep their versatility. and they would be accompanied by and avatar buff range extension to BRD horn range cause the distance now is retarded.

Now since this will never happen. here's hoping that SE dose not fuck up the job i like the most.

Now to make a point. Take away any other jobs SJ and you take away efficiency or some other thing but leaving the core of the job unchanged. take away a SMN's support job and you have a WTF job.

[Kitrane]

I like the idea of higher tier auto-refresh. It helps mitigate the perp cost of avatars while simultaneously helping smn recover the high amounts of mp they need to function to begin with. I would also like to see a buff range increase around the avatars too as this will help with the problem of avatars missing players due to placement, etc. A ranged BP shouldn't lose mp, but retain the ability timer recast...as this would simulate a DD losing tp and having to rebuild it again to use a weapon skill.

New avatars...I'd like to see Phoenix with some kind of a raise BP. Alexander would be sweet as another light based avatar. I also liked the idea about avatars having innate traits (titan phys dmg-, garuda eva+, absorbing their respective element, etc.) Something fun as well...I was thinking maybe a chocobo avatar that is actually rideable in the normal riding areas. Nothing really game-breaking about it just something fun to add a little extra appeal to the job.

and maybe a fix to rush? XD

[Acturus]

Another tier of Auto Refresh 50+ would be a benefit.
Additional gear with more potent -BP would be a benefit.
A decrease to magical pact resist rates would be a benefit.
An increase to Avatar attack speed would be a benefit.
Changing Avatar melee to 2-Handed mechanics at the same delay would be a benefit.
Putting Conserve MP on BPs would be a benefit.
A greater potency for TP in TP-based abilities would be a benefit.
Having more Smn. Skill equal greater attack and accuracy on melee strikes would be a benefit.

Really, at this point, SMN needs something to get itself back in the game, and I'm almost ready to take anything so long as it's an enhancement and not just new avatars. It just seems that SE comes up with good ideas for the job class and lets them die on the design floor. Split BPs was a step in the right direction, but they didn't go far enough. TP modification is a step in the right direction, but it's a small bonus dependant on an average accuracy rating.

And all the while we get strung along with new avatars like it's bread and circuses.

[Yugl]

Now to make a point. Take away any other jobs SJ and you take away efficiency or some other thing but leaving the core of the job unchanged. take away a SMN's support job and you have a WTF job.

Bingo! Someone gets it.