Kuno's awesome SMN post

[Meian]

So far I think the only thing agreeable from everyone is the higher tier Auto-Refresh XD

[Not Kuno]

So far I think the only thing agreeable from everyone is the higher tier Auto-Refresh XD

I don't think that will really fix some of the real problems smn has. >.>

[Meian]

I don't think that will really fix some of the real problems smn has. >.>

Compromises so far in this topic only has this right now (that I've noticed anyway).

If they release these two new avatars, chances are there may be a minor update with SMN to go with it (or perhaps right after).

[Shalafi]

Bingo! Someone gets it.

LOL, what does this have to do with SMNs needing to focus on one role? Take away sub and SMN has almost useless healing and protection. Today SMNs are treated, even in 75 capacity (not stating EG), as back-up healers and are required to have stoneskin for survivability.

As stated before, although I like the idea, I don't think additional auto-refresh will be added as free Fenrir would be too good for SMN solo, etc.

Shorten BP casting time or Avatar casting time
Shorten Avatar attack range or increase Avatar support ability range

[Sabishii]

Yugl, COR isn't pure support, being a hybrid or versatile job doesn't mean you're mediocre in both aspects.

COR gets B type ratings in swords and daggers, daggers are weak, but swords are half-way decent, and they can wield joy toy. They have a B ranking in guns, which were normally just limited to RNG. Yes, it's less skill than RNG, but they can still use stuff like Slug Shot. They don't have the same variety of armor and weapons that RNG has, but the point is, they can still dish out respectable damage. Now, they also can dispel and sleep stuff with quickdraw and enhance enfeebles, AND they get all their roll buffs, getting many unique and useful ones that enhance not just the COR's performance, but the party's. When the COR is not buffing, they should be shooting and enfeebling stuff.

But BRD is pure support, when a BRD doesn't buff or enfeeble, they either back up heal in an emergency (if they're subbed /WHM), they act as crowd control (lullaby), and they pull mobs for the party or complete other objectives (like in Nyzul, I go with a BRD in my static, he often is the one that brings us up a floor). It brings me to my point, the BRD can't do respectable damage, they're pure support. Their best weapon is daggers, they do get a lower skill in it than THF but on par with COR's own dagger, sword, or gun skills, but it's a weak weapon to begin with, and have nothing to support their dagger damage (sneak attack, trick attack, triple attack).

SMN can heal with their sub, they get a few avatars to heal, and give buffs, and some of their blood pacts do great damage, but they're limited by timers and poor avatar AI and some other things holding them back as well (limited gear selection, for example). But they are clearly a hybrid job in a sense, they CAN heal, they CAN buff, they CAN do damage.

BLU can buff, BLU can enfeeble, they can sleep stuff, they can heal, they can do magic damage, and they can zerg physical damage spells as well as melee. They're just limited by which gear and spells they have. They are versatile and not useless in any of the roles they can take. Some roles are naturally better for them than others (magic nukes aren't as good as physical spells, they're more expensive MP and gear wise), but if they need to do it, they can do it. Won't be the same damage as a BLM, but it doesn't have to be.

A COR can buff, a COR can DD, but they're not limited to either or, they can do BOTH, at the same time even. One round they can buff, the next they can shoot a slug shot.

[Yugl]

LOL, what does this have to do with SMNs needing to focus on one role? Take away sub and SMN has almost useless healing and protection. Today SMNs are treated, even in 75 capacity (not stating EG), as back-up healers and are required to have stoneskin for survivability.

You wonder why I accuse people of reading half way and there is why. He didn't just mention subs, he also mentioned this:

Now to make a point. Take away any other jobs SJ and you take away efficiency or some other thing but leaving the core of the job unchanged. take away a SMN's support job and you have a WTF job.

In other words, if you take away the SJ (Leaving you with just the class itself) and you strip away niches, you'll find a core role for most classes. However, if you do that for SMN, you'll find that SMN has no real role.

Yugl, COR isn't pure support, being a hybrid or versatile job doesn't mean you're mediocre in both aspects.

I've mentioned this about two times before, but I'll mention it again. I acknowledge that some classes are versatile in the sense that they *can* perform multiple roles. However, most if not all have some primary role. The only exception to this is SCH which has two primary roles that are strictly limited by JAs and skill. Before I continue, I will point out once again that I am not against SMN being capable of more than one role. However, since SMN in its current state takes on all roles equally, boosting its current abilities without introducing new abilities would not define its role.

COR gets B type ratings in swords and daggers, daggers are weak, but swords are half-way decent, and they can wield joy toy. They have a B ranking in guns, which were normally just limited to RNG. Yes, it's less skill than RNG, but they can still use stuff like Slug Shot. They don't have the same variety of armor and weapons that RNG has, but the point is, they can still dish out respectable damage. Now, they also can dispel and sleep stuff with quickdraw and enhance enfeebles, AND they get all their roll buffs, getting many unique and useful ones that enhance not just the COR's performance, but the party's. When the COR is not buffing, they should be shooting and enfeebling stuff.

COR is a support role. It can do DMG, but that's not its main function in a party. All you're doing is saying "Hey COR can DD too!". That doesn't mean DD is apart of its core role. That would be the same as saying MNK is a nuke DD since it has access to Chi Blast. The best way to describe this as mentioned earlier is by stripping away some of these hybrid roles and seeing which ones COR cannot function without. If COR had no buff abilities, would it be accepted into parties and EG activities? I doubt it. It has the capabilities to DD, but they aren't refined to the point where I would say its DD potential is as strong as its support potential. I think this is obvious when you look at the abilities given to COR. Quick Draw enhances debuffs on, dispels, or sleeps the mob. Rolls enhance the status of the party and work on a variety of levels (To distinguish this from some buffs such as protect). Random Deal also acts as a support role. The only reason COR is capable of DDing is because the nature of its primary role and its skill level allows it to.

But BRD is pure support, when a BRD doesn't buff or enfeeble, they either back up heal in an emergency (if they're subbed /WHM), they act as crowd control (lullaby), and they pull mobs for the party or complete other objectives (like in Nyzul, I go with a BRD in my static, he often is the one that brings us up a floor). It brings me to my point, the BRD can't do respectable damage, they're pure support. Their best weapon is daggers, they do get a lower skill in it than THF but on par with COR's own dagger, sword, or gun skills, but it's a weak weapon to begin with, and have nothing to support their dagger damage (sneak attack, trick attack, triple attack).

I agree, BRD is fully dedicated to support and is probably one of the reasons its buffs are beyond that of COR (March!). Since we're bringing up the subject of support I would like to throw in RDM. RDM before it received gravity and refresh was shunned from the community. In fact, RDM was in a similar situation as SMN is now. No real role just mediocre at all of them. How did SE fix this? By giving RDM enhancements towards its support role. Today if RDM were to receive a buff, which would be more beneficial: Enfeebling Buffs against HNMs or En-Spell Sword buffs? If you believe the former is more beneficial, you're probably playing RDM right. If you believe the latter, you're probably playing RDM in a SH with a sword instead of staff.

The problem with pointing out other classes and saying "See they function even though they can fit many roles!" is that the ones pointed out don't function well because they're versatile, but because they perform their main role well. Performing your main role well doesn't necessarily mean being the best, but there are some standards to fulfill. Maybe SMN will turn out like SCH and have two primary roles, but having two primary roles is different than having four.

SMN can heal with their sub, they get a few avatars to heal, and give buffs, and some of their blood pacts do great damage, but they're limited by timers and poor avatar AI and some other things holding them back as well (limited gear selection, for example). But they are clearly a hybrid job in a sense, they CAN heal, they CAN buff, they CAN do damage.

Yes they can do each role, but can they do it effectively? No not at all.

BLU can buff, BLU can enfeeble, they can sleep stuff,

This is pretty much a support role that you're trying to break down into multiple parts. Would I rely on a BLU for a support role? Hell no. Everyone looks at BLU and suddenly thinks we do it all when in fact, there are extreme limits on our capabilities. I get less HP buffer from Metallic Body than I do from SJ Stoneskin. If I want to use Diamondhide I have to burn (1/5) of my MP to do so. Our ability to sleep is good, but not as potent as others. However, does not being able to sufficiently perform in this role leave BLU rejected? Not necessarily. Why? Because our main role is DD.

they can heal,

Anything with MP and access to WHM/SCH sub can heal. The only real healing potential we have is Healing Breeze and Magic Fruit. We can't even use EXuviation without diffusion and taking mass amounts of hate. Most people that I see preaching BLU's role as a healer is decked out in MP gear instead of ATT/Haste/ACC/STR/DEX. Again, BLU's inability to be a great healer doesn't matter because its DD potential is excellent.

they can do magic damage,

Most BLUs will agree that BLU magic DMG isn't that great. It's good for specific situations where physical DD won't cut it, but other than that we stick to physical DD. Also, unlike DMG which can perform its magic attacks at full capacity at any moment, BLU has to change their entire spell list and gear. In other words, changing between full magic and physical damage is more difficult for a BLU than it is for a SMN. Again, BLU don't tend to use magic spells unless physical spells are cheapened.

and they can zerg physical damage spells as well as melee.

Main role and we're damn good at it (Well some of us).

They're just limited by which gear and spells they have.

Huge limitation here.

They are versatile and not useless in any of the roles they can take.

If BLU's physical DMG potential was on par with its healing capabilities it would be shunned from the community. Without its stength in the physical DD department, BLU looses what makes it wanted. In specific situations such as Apollyon and Limbus it may have a role, but that's the same as using SMN for Wyrms only or PUP for Ob only.

Some roles are naturally better for them than others (magic nukes aren't as good as physical spells, they're more expensive MP and gear wise), but if they need to do it, they can do it. Won't be the same damage as a BLM, but it doesn't have to be.

If BLU didn't have the capability to do good physical DMG, it would probably rely on its magic DMG for a role in a PT. So if BLU didn't have a primary role as physical DD, then yes it would need to do damage equal to a BLM.

A COR can buff, a COR can DD, but they're not limited to either or, they can do BOTH, at the same time even. One round they can buff, the next they can shoot a slug shot.

Would COR still be invited if it couldn't buff? Would COR still be invited if it couldn't DD? I would say no to the first and yes to the second.

[Shalafi]

You wonder why I accuse people of reading half way and there is why. He didn't just mention subs, he also mentioned this:



In other words, if you take away the SJ (Leaving you with just the class itself) and you strip away niches, you'll find a core role for most classes. However, if you do that for SMN, you'll find that SMN has no real role.

Being articulate the first time helps. The issue with SMN is not that without it's sub it is useless, it's actually quite good, just too slow at providing it's benefits; lots of posts speak to this.

I've mentioned this about two times before, but I'll mention it again. I acknowledge that some classes are versatile in the sense that they *can* perform multiple roles. However, most if not all have some primary role. The only exception to this is SCH which has two primary roles that are strictly limited by JAs and skill. Before I continue, I will point out once again that I am not against SMN being capable of more than one role. However, since SMN in its current state takes on all roles equally, boosting its current abilities without introducing new abilities would not define its role.

SMN does not take on all roles equally, take a look at magic DMG and you will see it is very inconsistent, they have very limited healing too because of the current state.

COR is a support role. It can do DMG, but that's not its main function in a party. All you're doing is saying "Hey COR can DD too!". That doesn't mean DD is apart of its core role. That would be the same as saying MNK is a nuke DD since it has access to Chi Blast. The best way to describe this as mentioned earlier is by stripping away some of these hybrid roles and seeing which ones COR cannot function without. If COR had no buff abilities, would it be accepted into parties and EG activities? I doubt it. It has the capabilities to DD, but they aren't refined to the point where I would say its DD potential is as strong as its support potential. I think this is obvious when you look at the abilities given to COR. Quick Draw enhances debuffs on, dispels, or sleeps the mob. Rolls enhance the status of the party and work on a variety of levels (To distinguish this from some buffs such as protect). Random Deal also acts as a support role. The only reason COR is capable of DDing is because the nature of its primary role and its skill level allows it to.

1 BRD, 1 COR can be preferred in merits because the COR can provide DD, more killing speed/power; hence the benefit


The rest is pointless BLU info, easy to see you are a BLU and not a SMN.

[Ninjiz]

It's pretty asinine to try an d make a distinction between magical damage and physical damage. Damage is damage regardless of the source. If I did 1000 damage with Wind blade(lol), then did 1000 damage with Predator Claws, wtf is the difference? Theres no logical reason why SMN should have to choose between Physcial DMG and Magical DMG... its DMG!!!! You cant compare a blm to a drk, because a blm isnt in there meleeing. You dont see Blu using magical nukes often because they are too inconsistant, so physical is superior by default. Blu magical side is the elephant in the room that SE has never addressed. In blu's case it doesnt matter that its a physical spell or a magical spell... its a SPELL!

Smn's role doesnt have to choose between physical JA, and a magical JA, they are both JA that would cause dmg.
Smn's role should be defined by the avtar it is currently using, the end.
The only reason Smn cant do all these roles well, is because of the locked timer, and weaknesses is all the areas everyone else has already pointed out.

Cor DD is JUST as much a part of its ability to buff everyone. My 1400+ Slugs at bird camp (sometimes 1000 on mamools) show so. A cor not DDing in a party is a waste of space. And you anaology of Mnk and Chi blast is weak!

[Rikus]

I'd settle for Auto Refresh 2 and 3 (@ 50/75).

Dear Santa... THIS PLZ!

BP range @ 10.0ish would be hawt too

[Ahlah]

There are tons of suggestions in this thread, The question is are these ideas going to change the role of SMN in endgame activities? Do you honestly believe getting rid of perp cost/higher tier refresh wil make SMN more appealing to endgame LS?

BST also suffer the same problem, ppl ask for minor adjustments such as uncapped jugpet which have very little impact on the gameplay.

[Yugl]

Being articulate the first time helps.The issue with SMN is not that without it's sub it is useless, it's actually quite good, just too slow at providing it's benefits; lots of posts speak to this.

Do you even read what others are posting? Do you read what you're posting? Honestly you're just changing the argument every time you're wrong.

In short:

Lilfoo: Other classes still have a core role after removing their subs and niches.

Yugl: Yes I agree!

Shalafi: He did not say what you just said!

Yugl: Yes he did and I'll explain it to you step by step. *Explanation here*

Shalafi: Oh why didn't you say that earlier?! Gosh you need to articulate more!

SMN does not take on all roles equally, take a look at magic DMG and you will see it is very inconsistent, they have very limited healing too because of the current state.

Ok so if SMN doesn't take on all roles equally, what is SMN's primary role then.

1 BRD, 1 COR can be preferred in merits because the COR can provide DD, more killing speed/power; hence the benefit

How does this prove that a core role is unnecessary for classes? In your example, the COR better be pumping out roles, otherwise I'll find another DD that fits the role. The reason people invite BRD and COR into the same PT is to have more buffs. No one invites them so that the COR can sit back and half-ass DD.

The rest is pointless BLU info, easy to see you are a BLU and not a SMN

Yes everyone has one 75. I think the real reason you're not responding to the BLU, RDM, or BRD remarks is because you can't. It's obvious you just want SMN to be some broken -wipe the whole zone with one Astral flow- class.

It's pretty asinine to try an d make a distinction between magical damage and physical damage. Damage is damage regardless of the source. If I did 1000 damage with Wind blade(lol), then did 1000 damage with Predator Claws, wtf is the difference?

The difference is the improvements that you make. For a melee DD, it's best to have spike DMG (Which SMN currently does) and DoT (What SMN lacks). For a nukes DD, DoT isn't that important. It's about doing the most damage in one nuke without worry about hate. That is why I separate the two.

Theres no logical reason why SMN should have to choose between Physcial DMG and Magical DMG... its DMG!!!! You cant compare a blm to a drk, because a blm isnt in there meleeing.

You just proved why there is a need to differentiate between physical and magical DMG. GG.

You dont see Blu using magical nukes often because they are too inconsistant, so physical is superior by default.

BLUs nukes aren't that inconsistent. I rarely had problems with resists on BLU, but I never found the damage to be grand either. The reason BLUs use physical damage more often is because the MP:DMG ratio is better and you do more damage with physical spells. 60 MP for SATACA Cannonball when fully geared v 100+ MP for Eyes on Me (Which generally does significantly less DMG depending on the mob). You clearly don't know wtf you're talking about.

Blu magical side is the elephant in the room that SE has never addressed. In blu's case it doesnt matter that its a physical spell or a magical spell... its a SPELL!

Let me guess, your BLU is decked out in AF and pimping Astral Rings. Whether a spell is physical or magic makes a world of difference. It changes the MP consumed, the spell set, the gear set, and overall what direction you gear yourself towards. Am I using Disseverment? Pack the BLU skill, ACC, STR, and DEX. Am I using Eyes on me? Pack the BLU skill, CHR, MAB, and Magic ACC.

Smn's role doesnt have to choose between physical JA, and a magical JA, they are both JA that would cause dmg.

The point.

You

Smn's role should be defined by the avtar it is currently using, the end.

Ya because with the power of dolls SMN can do it all right? I guess I was right, most SMNs just want a super one hit move.

The only reason Smn cant do all these roles well, is because of the locked timer, and weaknesses is all the areas everyone else has already pointed out.

Way to prove my point. SMNs want it all and that's why what they want is so diverse. Here you've just admitted that you want SMN to do well in all its roles it *can* do. I'll just post what I said earlier.

"I want my pony to do super physical damage"
"I want my pony to do super magic damage"
"I want my pony to do super buffs"
"I want my pony to do super healing"

Cor DD is JUST as much a part of its ability to buff everyone. My 1400+ Slugs at bird camp (sometimes 1000 on mamools) show so. A cor not DDing in a party is a waste of space.

1.4k DMG with a ranged weapon on Colibri isn't that great. The reason it's so appealing to a COR is because that damage is coming from a support class. My view: COR could have been released without DD potential and make its way into a PT easily. Your view: Without DD, COR is nothing. If you can't understand why COR's ability to DD is icing on the cake, then I feel sorry for you (Just a little).

And you anaology of Mnk and Chi blast is weak!

How so? All I hear you saying is "You're wrong because you're wrong!". That's not an argument, that's bitching at its finest.

There are tons of suggestions in this thread, The question is are these ideas going to change the role of SMN in endgame activities? Do you honestly believe getting rid of perp cost/higher tier refresh wil make SMN more appealing to endgame LS?

Bingo! Another winner in the game of logic.

[Ninjiz]

What have I or anyone else said that even remotely suggests Smn's want a one hit move to rule them all???

The role should be difined by the avatar being used because they all bring something diff to the table... plain and simple. Everyone here is destroying your flawed logic yet you dont get it, and have nerve to declare a winner in the game of logic??

Just because you can find 1, 2 or 3 magical nukes that are worth it, does not mean magical blu magic is at its core consistant... way to miss the point, way to think i was talking about resist rates~

Your Mnk chi blast logic fails because youre basicaly comparing Cor Buff/DD role to Mnk DD/chi blast. They dont even remotely compare to each other. DD is a far bigger role to Cor then Chi is for mnk. You can argue that cor would have been fine if SE didnt implement their DD capabilities, but thats moot, because they DID.
You made the retarded statement that Buff and DD is to Cor as DD and Chi is to Mnk! That mnk relying on Chi would be calling mnk a DD/Nuker...

And if you dont think a 1.4k ws on birds
is significant, then youre on drugs, regardless if it comes from a Support job or not. Its simply made MORE significant because its coming from a Support job.

You just proved why there is a need to differentiate between physical and magical DMG. GG.

oh please~

Try again, gear setup doesnt change the fact that the dmg is coming from a spell. Are you now going to say that a physical spell only Blu is not a mage? I dont give a fuck if Disserv dmg'd foes with the power of skittles.. Dmg is dmg. And to sit here and try to divide a job that uses both into different categories of Magicial DD, and Physical DD when both are represented as Spells is retarded. A Blu using all physical spells is STILL a MageDD. Blu is not a pure DD. Its a Hybrid. Just because i equip all spells with physical properties doesnt change the nature i am using magic damage.

"I want my pony to do damage"
"I want my pony to do buffs"
"I want my pony to do healing"

Fixed for you. And stop putting words in everyone mouths. It's tacky. Or are you calling Sch, and blu broken?

[Shalafi]

Do you even read what others are posting? Do you read what you're posting? Honestly you're just changing the argument every time you're wrong.

In short:

Lilfoo: Other classes still have a core role after removing their subs and niches.

Yugl: Yes I agree!

Shalafi: He did not say what you just said!

Yugl: Yes he did and I'll explain it to you step by step. *Explanation here*

Shalafi: Oh why didn't you say that earlier?! Gosh you need to articulate more!

No, I stated that you were not clear with your sub job argument and went on to debunk your idea. I think you should take your own reading comprehension advice.

Ok so if SMN doesn't take on all roles equally, what is SMN's primary role then.

Again, reading comprehension; statement is that, as per your definition of Magic & Physical being different, Magic DMG is sub par on a SMN due to inconsistency.

How does this prove that a core role is unnecessary for classes? In your example, the COR better be pumping out roles, otherwise I'll find another DD that fits the role. The reason people invite BRD and COR into the same PT is to have more buffs. No one invites them so that the COR can sit back and half-ass DD.

The COR is a BRD replacement that can DD. Party leaders decide on great buffs (2nd BRD) or decent buffs with DMG (Dual role COR).

Yes everyone has one 75. I think the real reason you're not responding to the BLU, RDM, or BRD remarks is because you can't. It's obvious you just want SMN to be some broken -wipe the whole zone with one Astral flow- class.

I have multiple 75 and understand all my jobs.

The difference is the improvements that you make. For a melee DD, it's best to have spike DMG (Which SMN currently does) and DoT (What SMN lacks). For a nukes DD, DoT isn't that important. It's about doing the most damage in one nuke without worry about hate. That is why I separate the two.

Interesting how prior to this you lumped DMG as one when Magic DMG alone was referenced.

Bingo! Another winner in the game of logic.

At least we agree on something and if you read my posts you'd know where I stand.

[Yugl]

Spoiler: show

The role should be difined by the avatar being used because they all bring something diff to the table... plain and simple.

Like I said:

"I want my pony to do super physical damage"
"I want my pony to do super magic damage"
"I want my pony to do super buffs"
"I want my pony to do super healing"

Everyone here is destroying your flawed logic yet you dont get it, and have nerve to declare a winner in the game of logic??

Or they're all just moron.

Just because you can find 1, 2 or 3 magical nukes that are worth it, does not mean magical blu magic is at its core consistant... way to miss the point, way to think i was talking about resist rates~

How is BLU magic at its core inconsistent (A word you can't even spell)? You keep throwing this around as if you're making a point when you're not. Why not actually show some examples of this being true? Oh wait you can't.

Your Mnk chi blast logic fails because youre basicaly comparing Cor Buff/DD role to Mnk DD/chi blast. They dont even remotely compare to each other. DD is a far bigger role to Cor then Chi is for mnk.

A COR's standing in the game is not related to its ability to DD. However, a COR's ability to buff is related to its standing in the game. You haven't shown that a COR's ability to DD is comparable to its ability to buff the PT. My argument against that assertion is that *all* of COR's abilities are geared towards buffing the party. The rolls, Quick Draw, Random Deal, and the merited abilities. The only ability COR receives in the DD department is Quick Draw. Furthermore, all respectable DDs have at least an A- in some combat skill pertaining to weapons. COR does not. The only reason a COR DDs is because he or she has nothing else to do. If they're subbing WHM they will most likely heal and debuffs because their role as a support takes priority over ability to DD. That is why COR is primarily a supporter.

- All Abilities geared towards Buffs
- One of these abilities happens to do DMG
- Unlike other respectable DDs COR doesn't have at least an A- for a weapon
- Given the option to support using WHM spells (When needed) or DD, a COR will choose to act as support

Does all this still add up to DD as a main role? No. Just stop being retarded.

You can argue that cor would have been fine if SE didnt implement their DD capabilities, but thats moot, because they DID.

That's not moot because it shows the importance of a primary role stupid.

You made the retarded statement that Buff and DD is to Cor as DD and Chi is to Mnk! That mnk relying on Chi would be calling mnk a DD/Nuker...

2004 MNK Chi Blast was the shit. I guess late people like you don't understand how significant that move was to MNKs before the nerf.

The reason MNKs Chi-Blasted was because their melee capabilities were close to useless on Sky NMs. The reason a COR DDs in a PT is because he has no buffs to hand out/no crowds to sleep/role to play as supporter. In other words, a MNK Chi-blasts when he or she is incapable of performing his or her primary role while a COR DDs when he or she is incapable of performing his or her own role. I didn't think I would have to make it this simple for you, but you leave me no choice.

And if you dont think a 1.4k ws on birds
is significant, then youre on drugs, regardless if it comes from a Support job or not. Its simply made MORE significant because its coming from a Support job.

Colibri and Ranged Weapon. Get the message?

Try again, gear setup doesnt change the fact that the dmg is coming from a spell.

Gear does change how much that spell will do. So what if the damage comes from a spell? How does that show SMN doesn't need to define a role to get a place in endgame? Do you think leaders just say "Hey I heard SMNs no longer have Perp. I'm going to invite them!"? If you think so, you're ignorant. A leader looks at the event, sets up what they need specifically for the event, pick out what roles are needed for the event, see what's in the pool to select from, choose from there.

Attacker: Unless its a special case, leaders probably won't look for a SMN

Tank: A leader won't look for a SMN

Support: A leader won't look for a SMN here

Healer: A leader won't look for a SMN here

Magic DMG: A leader won't look for a SMN here

Will giving Auto-Refresh and reducing Perp. Cost get SMN into one of these slots?

Are you now going to say that a physical spell only Blu is not a mage?

What does calling BLU a mage have to do with anything? I swear you're just failing at trolling.

I dont give a fuck if Disserv dmg'd foes with the power of skittles.. Dmg is dmg. And to sit here and try to divide a job that uses both into different categories of Magicial DD, and Physical DD when both are represented as Spells is retarded.

Actually you're retarded. As I stated before, it does matter what a BLU uses since his gear and spell set up will change. A BLU will never use Staff on physical spells unless they plan to SATACA the spell. A BLU will always use Staff (Corresponding element) if he is using magic DMG spells. You're just proving how ignorant you are.

A Blu using all physical spells is STILL a MageDD.

Mage DD isn't the same as magic DD. Get it through your head dimwit.

Blu is not a pure DD. Its a Hybrid. Just because i equip all spells with physical properties doesnt change the nature i am using magic damage.

If that were true then a BLU's physical spells would be enhanced by elemental staffs. That isn't the case. Again, ignorance on your part.

Fixed for you. And stop putting words in everyone mouths. It's tacky. Or are you calling Sch, and blu broken?

SCHs are strong in healing and nuking damage. They have limited support abilities, but those abilities are geared towards enhancing its healing or nuking potential.

BLU is strong in the physical damage department. It has debuffs which it uses ti enhance its physical damage, but again, that's geared towards physical damage. A BLU's ability to buff is lackluster at best I think you would understand this if you actually played BLU. A BLU's magic damage is limited to specific events in which its physical damage potential falls short. In other words it's a back up, not a primary role. This you would also know if you played BLU. If anything all the crap you're spewing is a result of ignorance at best. Or maybe you're simply retarded. I probably should stop making fun of you about that if it is the case.

Spoiler: show

No, I stated that you were not clear with your sub job argument and went on to debunk your idea. I think you should take your own reading comprehension advice.

The subjob argument wasn't my argument idiot. Within his post he said that all classes have a core role while SMN doesn't. You're the one lacking comprehension skills.


My post:

Ok so if SMN doesn't take on all roles equally, what is SMN's primary role then.

Your post:

Again, reading comprehension; statement is that, as per your definition of Magic & Physical being different, Magic DMG is sub par on a SMN due to inconsistency.

How did you miss the question? Do you work for SE? You seem to be real good at circumventing questions.

If SMN's role isn't equally distributed (And your example is that SMN's ability to do magic DMG is worse than its other abilities), then which role does SMN best fit?

The COR is a BRD replacement that can DD. Party leaders decide on great buffs (2nd BRD) or decent buffs with DMG (Dual role COR).

Way to prove my point. COR is a replacement BRD, not a replacement DD. Hence, COR's primary role is to be a supporter, not a DD.

I have multiple 75 and understand all my jobs.

Having multiple 75s doesn't mean you've engaged those points I offered.


The original question:

It's pretty asinine to try an d make a distinction between magical damage and physical damage. Damage is damage regardless of the source. If I did 1000 damage with Wind blade(lol), then did 1000 damage with Predator Claws, wtf is the difference?

Translated: Why distinguish between physical damage and magical damage?

My response:

The difference is the improvements that you make. For a melee DD, it's best to have spike DMG (Which SMN currently does) and DoT (What SMN lacks). For a nukes DD, DoT isn't that important. It's about doing the most damage in one nuke without worry about hate. That is why I separate the two.

Melee DD: Consider DoT, Can't rely on spike damage
Magical DD: DoT not as important

Interesting how prior to this you lumped DMG as one when Magic DMG alone was referenced.

Last I checked Predator's claw is a physical damage ability.

At least we agree on something and if you read my posts you'd know where I stand.

I have read them and in fact, I'll use one of your points to show why roles are important:

Take RNG nerf; the nerf happened and RNG wasn't used, SE tweaked the job to bring it back and become useful again.

It's funny because you say SE tweaked the job, but you don't specify how. I'll tell you how. They focused on DD. They didn't give RNG a little boost in DD, a little boost in tanking, and a little boost in support. They lumped a huge improvement to its DD capabilities.

DRG, they introduced Angon, gear, weapon improvements, introduced a 2hr geared towards meleeing, and more recently, WS improvements. None of these improvements listed were geared towards DRG's healing potential. They were all significant boosts in DRG's ability to produce melee damage.

RDM used to have problems in the game because it didn't have a defined role. It had lackluster healing potential and even worse nuking potential (Similar to SMN!). How did SE fix this? It gave RDM new support spells (Gravity and Refresh). Is what saved RDM better En-spells? No. Is what saved RDM better nuking capabilities? No. It was saved because SE decided to increase RDM's primary role.

PLD used to lag behind NINs. However, updates such to existing abilities such as Rampart and Sentinal, which are clearly in the tanking department, PLD has improved. Of course this was complemented by other tank related abilities and traits such as Shield Mastery and Reprisal.

In all of these examples the improvements improved said classes's ability to perform its primary role. What does that suggest for SMN? Fix the primary role. The problem with that? SMN has no primary role. Will decreasing BP timers and giving Auto-Refresh 2 solve this problem? No. How do you fix a class without improving what it already has? How can you give SMN a defining role? By adding new mechanism. So what type of mechanisms should be added? That depends on the role SMN wants to play. Again, SE improved these classes by giving them new mechanisms (Velocity Shot, Angon, Weapon Updates, New Spells). Not only did SE give them new mechanisms, they gave them great mechanisms. My concern is that saying SMN should receive buffs in all areas it can play will mean that SMN won't receive incredible buffs in one area, but mediocre buffs in all of them. However, such buffs have not done much in the past to fix problems.

Such examples of this would be THF's enmity stealing moves. Nothing to do with DD (And THFs really could use a buff in the DD department) and it accomplished nothing. PUPs have received lots of improvements in multiple departments, yet they're still rejected by the community. BST received buffs unrelated to DD and still they're shunned by the EG community. WHM, although not as serious, also had (Maybe even now) problems competing with other healers in EG situations. SE buffed their "Support" like abilities (ProV and Repose), and WHM is in the same situation as before (Though it's not that bad). These updates did not address the primary role of each class. As a result, these updates did little to fix the problem.

[Ninjiz]

Nuke is DD. Why split them up? Same thing with Buff and Heal really, it's called Support. I could understand splitting them up in reference of BRD and WHM, but a SMN's natural abilities of curing and buffing work the same way. If you increase their buffing ability you will increase their healing ability.

Nuff Said!!

You're constant need to divide it into more sub categories then that is stupid, and unnecessary.

If you think i'm going to make a book size post for your retarded arguing, youre sadly mistaken. Go ahead, reduce to typo corrections. Thats the only thing your good at. lol

edit: Hey everyone, Im late to FFXI because Yugi says so!!! This must be stone cold fact.. because yugi says so!!!

[Yugl]

You're constant need to divide it into more sub categories then that is stupid, and unnecessary.

I've shown why its necessary, but you can't seem to accept that fact. Maybe it's because you're too insecure to admit when you're wrong? I haven't seen any arguments showing that it's unnecessary to divide them. All you've said is "ITS DMG! ITS DMG!".

If you think i'm going to make a book size post for your retarded arguing, youre sadly mistaken. Go ahead, reduce to typo corrections. Thats the only thing your good at. lol

It's not a typo when you keep making the mistake. Once again, you're insecurity inhibits your ability to act rationally.

[/quote]edit: Hey everyone, Im late [/QUOTE]

That explains it all.

[Kenji]

In other words, if you take away the SJ (Leaving you with just the class itself) and you strip away niches, you'll find a core role for most classes. However, if you do that for SMN, you'll find that SMN has no real role.

I believe I found your issue: You strip away that SJ, and a SMN is *still* a DD and buffer. They are just currently a limited DD and sub-par buffer.

Do not equate a lack of role, with a sub-par performance at said role.

Repeat after me: A SMN *does* have roles; it just sucks at them. Given the multitude of other jobs that have multiple roles, and be good at them, it stands to reason that SMN should be good at it's roles, too.

That's all people here are trying to do: Make SMN good at it's *Already defined roles.*

Everyone here knows the roles a SMN is currently setup for; they just want it to be good at those roles.

If you're still unsure, I suggest you actually level SMN to 75, so you can see for yourself.

[Kang]

Anything to improve Smn would be a welcomed.

[Yugl]

I believe I found your issue: You strip away that SJ, and a SMN is *still* a DD and buffer. They are just currently a limited DD and sub-par buffer.

No Kenji, you found your problem. I've pointed out that SMNs have mixed ideas of what role SMN should play. Some say melee DD, some say Buffer, some say healer (Which you did not mention), some say magical DD, and some say its a mix. In fact, the guy who made the original reference to stripping away SJs claimed that SMN had no defined role. I don't know if it will click after you read my post, but I've said since page one that SMNs cannot decide what role they want, and in order to properly fix a class (Look at my previous post about DRG, RNG, PLD, and RDM), you need a concrete role.

Do not equate a lack of role, with a sub-par performance at said role.Repeat after me: A SMN *does* have roles; it just sucks at them.

It's funny Kenji because you've been bitching about what I've been saying this entire thread, then you turn around and do as I say. Namely define SMN's role. GG moron.

Given the multitude of other jobs that have multiple roles, and be good at them, it stands to reason that SMN should be good at it's roles, too.

I don't think you understand the concept of core role. The only one that has this multi-core role you speak of is SCH.

That's all people here are trying to do: Make SMN good at it's *Already defined roles.*

Problem: People can't define that role. Your first comment proves it since some people argue that one of SMN's core roles is healer.

Everyone here knows the roles a SMN is currently setup for; they just want it to be good at those roles.

So far there have been requests to up Physical DD, Magical DD, Supportive, and Healing abilities. I've already shown in my previous post that in previous successes in fixing classes has come about through introducing new significant mechanisms which enhance their core role. So for people to say that SMN is all those roles listed above would mean that SE would have to give SMN a significant improvement in each. Is it likely? No. That is why I said pick *one* to fix *first*, then work on a second if you're really into that hybrid crap.

[BRP]

BRD can't completely be replaced by COR or any job really. It is the one job in the game that is essentially always wanted. For example if you make SMN's haste something else that stacks, that really only makes BRD as or more popular than before only now you'll want another type of haste-er too. This is a bit off topic though. I can make it on topic by saying SMNs should be able to give out songs on a weaker level to cut down BRDs a little bit, if only by a tiny amount.