Kuno's awesome SMN post

[Ninjiz]

Unlike you I've shown ways to approach the problem and even give examples as to why this approach work. You just post because you're bitter about the fact everyone shat on your "morals" argument in the Salvage thread.

You havnt shown a thing...
And the vast majority of ppl in this thread do not agree with you. And the BEST you can come up with is "they are all morons" or put words in everyone's mouths. Acting as if everyone here is saying that they want one avatar to rule the world, for SMN to be the best curer, the best DD, and best buffer in the game, when no one has ever even said that. You sit here arguing semantics to high hell trying to force everyone to only pick one area to improve at a time, when all the ppl that actually know what the fuck they are talking about, know how to actually play the job, can plainly see Smn has many areas in need of adjusting. Trying to make everyone pick one is going against the very nature of the job.

SE is capable of fixing how many areas they want at any given time, who the hell are you to tell everyone else you can only pick area at a time, as if your word is law. We can talk about as many areas of concern as we want, without some person who doesnt even play the damn job, hijacking the entire thread of discussion to where HE wants it to be. You run out of steam and try to attack other things that have nothing to do with this thread (lolspelling, lolargument in another thread, lolplay length, lolsad real life examples). You spend 90% of this thread repeating yourself like a broken record, making the most GIGANTIC posts i have ever seen, over and over and over. With one post SO gigantic you had to "hide" both of them as "spoiler"s. Yet ppl from both sides of the argument here, whether it be the camp that thinks Smn is useless or the camp that thinks its fine, disagree with you on your failed attempt to break down every aspect of combat into all these ridiculous subcategories, of Semantics. When anyone who knows anything about smn, knows it was a job designed for versatility, and at best falls into a DD/support job. Argue semantics all you want, no one is buying it. Smn can focus on all its areas that need fixing, and still be a good DD/Support job. A job that can Deal Damage, and support the party, like the way its been since day 1.

At this point all I see you doing is repeating yourself over and over declaring yourself victor, acting like it's everyone else's burden to show you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're wrong. All I see you doing, is attempting to have the last word in here.

But go ahead, have the last word. Just because you've "shown" us things (no matter how irrelevant they are), it doesn't make A) them good B) solid gold, and C) us give a fuck.

edit (general additions and deletions)

Incoming Essay Alert!!

[Vajra]

Ideas for upcomming avatar (s):

Kujata - tetra elemental and he's BIG

Hades - status inflicting - same status effects like Bad Breath but more potent (for his 2hr and also do damage), also he'd specialize in ALL debuffs (except dia).

Anima - BIG avatar, and definitly seems doable, but he'd have the mechanics of a land worm (being stuck in one spot, and maybe burrowing to move (or using his lower half to move some how or teleporting who knows?)) It'd be crazy to see how they'd pull off Oblivion in FFXI though LUL.

Yojimbo - requires special tools to use him (rather than paying gil, but u pay gil to buy the tools!) A pet with a pet (Daigoro his dog).

Spoiler: show

Animations:
Kujata - YouTube - Final Fantasy VII - Kjata
Hades - YouTube - Final Fantasy VII - Hades
Anima - YouTube - Final Fantasy X - Anima - Pain & Oblivion
Yojimbo - Yojimbo/Summon Sequences - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research

Those are the only avatars i can really think that will surprise us really >.>

[Yugl]

You havnt shown a thing...

Spoiler: show

DRG, they introduced Angon, gear, weapon improvements, introduced a 2hr geared towards meleeing, and more recently, WS improvements. None of these improvements listed were geared towards DRG's healing potential. They were all significant boosts in DRG's ability to produce melee damage.

RDM used to have problems in the game because it didn't have a defined role. It had lackluster healing potential and even worse nuking potential (Similar to SMN!). How did SE fix this? It gave RDM new support spells (Gravity and Refresh). Is what saved RDM better En-spells? No. Is what saved RDM better nuking capabilities? No. It was saved because SE decided to increase RDM's primary role.

PLD used to lag behind NINs. However, updates such to existing abilities such as Rampart and Sentinal, which are clearly in the tanking department, PLD has improved. Of course this was complemented by other tank related abilities and traits such as Shield Mastery and Reprisal.

In all of these examples the improvements improved said classes's ability to perform its primary role. What does that suggest for SMN? Fix the primary role. The problem with that? SMN has no primary role. Will decreasing BP timers and giving Auto-Refresh 2 solve this problem? No. How do you fix a class without improving what it already has? How can you give SMN a defining role? By adding new mechanism. So what type of mechanisms should be added? That depends on the role SMN wants to play. Again, SE improved these classes by giving them new mechanisms (Velocity Shot, Angon, Weapon Updates, New Spells). Not only did SE give them new mechanisms, they gave them great mechanisms. My concern is that saying SMN should receive buffs in all areas it can play will mean that SMN won't receive incredible buffs in one area, but mediocre buffs in all of them. However, such buffs have not done much in the past to fix problems.

Such examples of this would be THF's enmity stealing moves. Nothing to do with DD (And THFs really could use a buff in the DD department) and it accomplished nothing. PUPs have received lots of improvements in multiple departments, yet they're still rejected by the community. BST received buffs unrelated to DD and still they're shunned by the EG community. WHM, although not as serious, also had (Maybe even now) problems competing with other healers in EG situations. SE buffed their "Support" like abilities (ProV and Repose), and WHM is in the same situation as before (Though it's not that bad). These updates did not address the primary role of each class. As a result, these updates did little to fix the problem.

That was taken from an early post.

And the vast majority of ppl in this thread do not agree with you.

A majority doesn't necessarily mean correct.

And the BEST you can come up with is "they are all morons"

Information can cure ignorance, yet it doesn't cure stupidity. I've given you information as to why it's a bad idea to buff SMN in all departments aside from tanking. You still don't get the point after being supplied with this information. I hope you understand what follows.

or put words in everyone's mouths like everyone is saying They want one avatar to rule the world and be the best curer, the best DD, and best buffer in the game, when no one has even said that.

I didn't say you said that.

Trying to force everyone to only pick one area to improve at a time, going against the very nature of the job, when SE is capable of fixing how many areas they want at any given time.

It's a failing nature.

You run out of steam and try to attack other things that have nothing to do with this thread (lolspelling, lolargument in another thread, lolplay length, lolsad real life examples).

Oh now you admit it's spelling. Before it was just a typo. The play length argument was used against me. If I wanted to use sad RL examples, I would have used your RL.

I spend 90% of my time in this thread bitching and complaining yet never reading what someone has to say, I make gigantic posts that use commas instead of periods because I feel sophisticated looking like a dumbass, over and over and over, and even though everyone is saying there is a problem I somehow manage to convince myself that there is a debate about the usefulness of SMN as of now, all damage is damage whether it comes from a BRD melee or from a BLM, people who play SMN either say it fits all roles except tanking or is DD/Support, but somehow I can't make a connection between this and the argument that SMNs are unable to agree on a specific role for SMN

This sounds about right

If you wan people to understand you, you just have to agree with them mindlessly because that's what I do and look how popular I am with the SMNs, even though you showed examples of situations where this approach works and situations in which the idea proposed by SMNs doesn't work, I don't understand you

It's ok Ninjiz. You're 15 and on Xbox.

But go ahead, have the last word. Just because you've "shown" us things, doesn't make them A) good B) solid gold, and C) doesn't mean we give a fuck.

This screams "I cannot do anything but bitch and I'm all out of yo mama jokes so I'm going to pull the -have the past post!- card and high tail it out of here".

[Kairos]

You're right that the majority players of the job have absolutely no idea how to fix it. I've been playing that job since shortly after it was added to the game, and along that time i've heard some of the most terrible ideas for job updates from the community. Most of them are based on changing completely something they don't like about the job. Unfortunately for those people, jobs in FFXI are not made based on what the players want them to be, the developers can pick and chose what to add/change and what to not add/change.


I think tampering with perpetuation is a terrible idea. Collect the gear you need to lower your perpetuation and then do macro swaps as needed, that simple. You can't have free avatars all the time because they are disposable, so they're going to make you collect some gear before you're allowed to call an avatar for long periods of time. Its also a good limiting factor for the job.

The concept of the job itself is an interesting one, but the problem is that SE is extremely conservative when it comes to giving smn the potency it needs to stay in the game. Even when they first added avatars to the skillchain chart they held back the ability to participate in level3 chains, which recently they said they have been considering doing still. The job's lack of speed is the main issue i have with it. With merit pacts I tend to get the full 1024 damage on most things that don't have direct magic reduction, but 1 nuke in 40 seconds compared to the 3 that blms/schs are doing is leaving smn in the dust as far as magic DD. I think the buffs could use a slight boost, but the real issue is their difficult to apply due to a lack of range just like the physical pacts.


I think there are problems with the functionality of the job, such as bp range, bp recast time, avatar melee power/attributes, and the spirit system. Other than that though, I don't feel like any crazy schemes need to be created to make the job fit it's original idea. Let's be honest, even if they did remove perpetuation, most summoners would continue with the (summon > bloodpact > release) method even when its not necessary to release.


The only thing i can think that I would add to smn would be more incentive to leave avatars in the battle for moderate bursts of time. If each avatar gave an effect not related to the wards they cast, which would increase in potency the more tp your avatar had. Anything that basically increases the value of having an avatar join the battle for a period of time. SE has a hard time realizing this with pet jobs in general. For it to work, the pet needs to be an asset with reasonable limits and not just a liability for the player/group. The mere presence of the avatar itself should have some effect on the battle. I'd be volunteering to heal on smn for parties all the time if i could hastega > cast carbuncle and have a regen effect on the entire party for them being withing carbuncle's range. I think just removing limits though is a bad idea, because the limiting factors are clearly there for a reason.


and that's the end of my long winded speech

[BRP]

I don't think you understand. You can't replace BRD. You haste a character, okay, you can replace WHM or RDM's Haste spell. But the BRD still able to add his own form of haste. You have not replaced him. This pretty much applies to everything.

[Ninjiz]

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2005...rama_queen.jpg

[Yugl]

I don't think you understand. You can't replace BRD. You haste a character, okay, you can replace WHM or RDM's Haste spell. But the BRD still able to add his own form of haste. You have not replaced him. This pretty much applies to everything.

That's true. If I were going to set SMN's core role as a supporter, I would make SMN's haste act in the same manner as Hasso (Break Caps and such). This alone of course would not make SMN a suport role, but it was strive towards that goal. It would also make them great to have in zergs to tack on extra haste.

[Sumy]

I feel SMN main job is just being a Magical Pet job, yeah I know that sounds vague and un-interesting. However, someone put out the idea a long time ago (not in this thread, and not even on BG) of a new line of spells for SMN, that are not tied to the BP:R/W timer at all. A series of spells specific to the SMN, that we're related to magic beings doing a single ability for an MP cost that fluxuated by level and the effect was based on Summoning Magic Skill. Some examples were:

Fairy 8MP~52MP: (Party - Single Target) heals target for xHP x SMN Magic Skill

Golem 16~96MP: (Party - Single Target) Grants a single target Stoneskin based on SMN Magic Skill

Bomb 8~52MP: (Enemy - Single Target) Deals fire damage to single target based on SMN skill

Siren 8-52MP: (Party) Enhances the effect of bard songs

Cait Sith 8-52MP (Enemy - Single Target) Deals slashing damage and Inflicts Confusion on single target (yeah yeah, I know "Was that Cait Sith!?") Duration and accuracy based on SMN Magic Skill

ect...

these would be independant of your avatars, can be used between the ~1min BP timer, and would enhance the SMNs primary role (which I assume is Magical Pet Job) by using one-shot pet spells based on the jobs native skill.


Edit: doh, enter button.

[Kairos]

They don't want to do that though. They want to keep smn a pet job, not just turn it into a mage that cast spells that appear to have pets attatched to them. I think only an enhancement of the benefits of avatar use is needed, nothing else needs to be changed. Maybe auto-refresh2 would be nice to have, but I hardly ever run out of mp as it is gettng 300-380 mp back from siphon along with the 45 scond pact timers.


As far as haste, smn shouldn't even be out to replace brd, but rather an acceptable alternative with different benefits. Corsair has not a damned thing to do with haste, yet they are used often just the same. The community in general is obsessed with getting more and more haste, but SE doesn't seem to want us to attack/cast much faster than we currently do. There are other beneficial effects that can be added to avatar presence that do not involve haste. A lot of these suggestions have to do with completely eliminating the use of a pet, which changes the very foundation of the job. The avatar's lack of influence is what's wrong with the job, along with range issues and harsh penalties for imperfect timing.

[Yugl]

If the haste is the same as Hasso, it wouldn't compete with BRDs, it would supplement their march.

[Ahlah]

This thread is still alive @.@

SE don't have to fix SMN per se. The job's biggest strength is hateless, TP-less (ranged) damage, which used to be a big thing years ago before SE adjusted PLD and 2h DD. All they need to do is introduce new HNMs with nasty AOE TP moves. ZNM is a good example which actually favours range attack DD including SMN, BLM and RNG.

SE is probably still working on WoTG endgame areas, it's not hard to implement gods immune to Stun, spam aga nuke/charmga/drainga to discourage players from using melee-burn style strategy. It will give SMN/BLM/RNG/PUP a chance to shine in endgame events.

[Riker]

instead of totally revamping the smn system, I think adding a new system would fix it completely. For instance make it an all around job like RDM but trough the use of avatars. Instead of making them all the same but different elements which often doesn't matter for too much save for some resists, make each avatar totally unique.
these are just random thoughts off the top of my head that could be vastly improved on
Titan- maybe able to tank?
Shiva- etc etc ...

[BRP]

This thread is actually getting worse.

[Kaibelf]

To be honest, as a SMN is feel spoiled. Aside from wanting new avatars (which I admit, are not really needed, but would be fun to play with), SMNs aren't wanting for anything. Tremendous hate-free power is nothing to sneeze at.

Maybe a stronger cure option, for healing ruby 2 earlier would be nice, only to take the edge of off being a gimp WHM stand-in during leveling. I still don't get the point of even having spirits, but w/e. lol

[frodnonnag]

there's alot of issues with smn as i see it is.

spirits, a couple of weeks ago we were doing the limbus run with the three gigas, magic immune, ra immune and phys immune and got stuck with killing phys immune(chronos?) for the next level. i set ice spirit, matched with day, astral flowed, wearing full +skill gear at him just to see if he could land even remotely decent numbers... i got two resisted debuffs and a freeze for 56... with 342 summoning magic. switched over to my regular avatars and my merited pacts were reaching around the low 300s. it was just one of the many instances i felt like there just wasn't a single goddamn thing to do since all my options just did shitty output for horrible MP waste.

magic attack bonus. we have two pieces of gear in the entire fucking game that modifies avatar magic attack bonus... astral pot which is generally ignored, and nirvana which a whole 3 people will ever get, ever. seriously, why the fuck aren't there more gear modifiers for this? fuck, does +skill even have an effect on macc? its been like 5 fucking years since smn came out and i still don't see a single parse even attempting to clarify stats behind most any bloodpact.

ward pacts. in merits, i often do a rotation of hastega and a second buff, either ecliptic howl or rolling thunder. its generally easy to keep a single buff and heal a mediocre party, but a great party usually leaves me with plenty of MP to do two 3 minute buffs, yet i can't figure out a decent second buff to use that could be comparable to what cor or brd has. crimson howl is too short a duration and too low of a bonus to warrant even attempting to keep a rotation on, it would be a fucking nightmare to do that requires near max gear and recast timers visible. rolling thunder, while i like it, only adds at most 1, 6 or 12 damage to a melee swing, and still requires more gear than most smn i know have, a +60 skill build. ecliptic howl requires the right moon phase for its best acc bonus, and even then its under blade madrigal by a good 5+ points based on the brd. hastega is currently our strongest buff, pretty much matching rdm in mp cost and potency, but taking the slight edge in how involved it is to use. the rest of our buffs are generally too situational, too random, or too weird to bother using all that much.

phys rage pacts. i generally like the damage output of my phys rage pacts, the only complaint is that it is hard as fucking hell to differentiate between my fully merited, fully geared pacts, and a fresh 75 with no merits and only AF gear. its still too random, and still too wide of a range of damage for me to know. the only edge i have against him is perpetuation, which is useless in a bp-release situation, and -bp timer, which they haven't changed since dynamis, all new major endgame gear has just a pittance of +skill, or still give such minor buffs that i can't tell a difference.

relic/mythics. lolclaustrum, i won't even bother getting into how fucked up a tool that is. nirvana looks nice at first, but there's one issue i have with it, there's nothing it does with BP wards, it literally ignores half the job. i honestly do want one to play with the pet MAB and run around with a free garuda, but i honestly don't expect much of a difference in endgame, only in the 1 merit pt i get invited to every 3-4 months.

[Yugl]

spirits, a couple of weeks ago we were doing the limbus run with the three gigas, magic immune, ra immune and phys immune and got stuck with killing phys immune(chronos?) for the next level. i set ice spirit, matched with day, astral flowed, wearing full +skill gear at him just to see if he could land even remotely decent numbers... i got two resisted debuffs and a freeze for 56... with 342 summoning magic. switched over to my regular avatars and my merited pacts were reaching around the low 300s. it was just one of the many instances i felt like there just wasn't a single goddamn thing to do since all my options just did shitty output for horrible MP waste.

Imagine how the melees felt!

[frodnonnag]

Imagine how the melees felt!

considering it was designed that way, what the melees do is a nonissue, the problem was that a hybrid job with both magic and physical damage sources shouldn't be struggling to do even minimal damage.

[Yugl]

Well that's what happens when you adopt a hybrid. You forgo the ability to excel and replace it with versatility. Since everyone is saying SMN plays all roles except tank, it should follows that its ability to do anything doesn't meet minimal standards.

[frodnonnag]

Well that's what happens when you adopt a hybrid. You forgo the ability to excel and replace it with versatility. Since everyone is saying SMN plays all roles except tank, it should follows that its ability to do anything doesn't meet minimal standards.

so you find that giving my spirit pet the absolute best possible setup and still getting only 50 damage from an AM spell reasonable? or that merited pacts, which have base stats similar to AM magic, approaching a 1 mp for 1 damage ratio worth the MP cost or merits? even though the mob was specifically designed to be killed only by magic damage?

[Silenka]

As they are now, even merited, spirits are nearly completely useless. It's 95% of the time preferable to actually be able to command and use an avatar, rather than rely on random chancy un-buffed spells from a spirit. The other 5% of the time is Light Spirit in a big alliance ^^ For some reason mine doesn't skimp on the cureV/curagaIVs, although my friend's spirit for some reason won't be caught dead casting a cure.

It's one thing for a job to have a bunch of useless spells that were useful at one time. It's completely another to have a bunch of useless spells that have never been useful, especially if they eat your mp away. The only thing spirits (besides light and then only marginally) are good for at the moment is Elemental Siphon.