Kuno's awesome SMN post

[Isiolia]

IMO, something that'd really help SMN would be to allow them to call blood pacts directly.

Rather than getting rid of perpetuation, make it so that you don't -need- to spend the time/MP to get the avatar out in the first place, at least for Wards. To me, one of the biggest downsides of SMN is the lag in your ability to act.

Perhaps do it in form of JAs with a timer on them to replace the current Ward/Rage timers. It'd say to maybe split things into three categories... buffs, enfeebles, and damage. Direct damage pacts maybe leave as needing a summoned avatar. Others, let the SMN just pull out like spells.

Cuts out the wasted perpetuation MP, eliminates range issues, and allows for split-second action by a SMN. Still would have the avatar pop out as part of the animation.

Summoned avatars would have a place for direct damage stuff, and perhaps put a reduced reuse timer on pacts for that avatar if left out.

[phrost]

Carbuncle - Auto Regen
Fenrir -Auto Regain
Diablos - sleep resistance

more like - sleep immunity

[Delirium]

There are so many things wrong with SMN, but I love the job dearly.

I look at BP:Rs like WS. The problem is two-fold. Damage seems to be capped, barring a crit with blood pacts and damage is fairly random. I've had mountain buster hit from 200-800 dmg regular on the same mob. It is a one hit ws, so why the huge disparity?
Not to mention gear+merits that augment the strength of BPs seems to have little effect compared to macroing in STR gear for a WS.

Most of the avatars are absolutely useless. Generally speaking, I use garuda, titan and carby. The entire magic line(tier2, tier4, merit) of BPs are bad.

The AI/pathing/whatever of avatars is messed up. instead of going in a straight line from you to the mob, they take weird curving patterns. This often puts them in a position relative to the mob that you dont want them to be in. the avatar stopping at max melee distance has already been covered.

I don't mind perp cost. However, stupid little spirits should not be more draining than avatars to keep out. If anything, these things should be free(after autorefresh). It's not like they cast good spells ever anyway.

As far as avatars go, I think I'd be happier if you summoned them out, they did a huge dmg and used a lot of mp, then went away.

to be more useful in pt, give SMN their own whm spells instead of relying on a sj. having -na spells, cures through 4 would be enough. a SMN could cure and have their elemental spirit attack+cast spells once every minute or so.


maybe I just want too much

[Zidiane]

Getting rid of perp cost would piss alot of people off, people have worked hard to get all their -perp gear and then for it only to affect spirits which are useless outside of elemental siphon? More -perp gear and higher auto refresh traits would be a better idea than scrapping it imo

They could just turn it into avatar bloodpact mp down instead of perp-.

Diablos, smn skill update(So it actualy did something), ward/rage seperated and Mp ability. Thats all smn has gotten, how useful are they? Hardly, the job sucks. Kuno has some nice ideas, some would make smn overpowered but the ability to keep a avatar out with out it sucking every single bit of mp out of you would be cool. Even meatheads (Sorry melees) got /dnc sub or healing in signet or sigil areas to get back hp faster, smn still has to sit on its ass for more of its life to regen mp.

[Fiye]

The thing I always hear complaints about is how FFXI's summoners don't work similiarly to their 1-9 counterparts. Right now, summons are just used like 1-9. Brought up to do damage and then recalled. Unless you're soloing with carbuncle.

The summoners in IV, IX, and X always had other magic to rely on as well. Youthful Rydia could use weaker Black and White Magic, while Adult Rydia was more focused on upper tiers of Black with no White.

IX's Summoners, Dagger and Eiko, could use White Magic, though Eiko was more focused on White Magic and Dagger was more focused on Summons.

And then you had Yuna from X, who was focused on both White Magic and gained Summons during your journey.

Honest, the only thing that could make summoners more useful is Squeenix decided to let summoners 75 capped spells. So they could go /WHM, /BLM, /SCH, or /RDM and not have to worry about having TWTBW skills.

However, it you want summons to be out all the time, you're kind of out of luck... 'less you stuck with carbuncle or have pimped yourself out for a free Garuda.

Anyways, my 2 cents to BG. Hopefully the thought of a more magey doesn't repulse the SMN community.

[BRP]

SMN recast times are just stupid.

You are being very presumptuous in believing that I think BP timers are perfectly functional. I even said "You are on the right track" at the end of the paragraph. Completely removing BP timers simply seems like too much to me. Aside from the obvious reasons, there is already gear and such based around BP timers. Much like every job related fix things need to be reworked, not thrown out.


If I am just going to throw out some solutions here... SMNs should be able to quick switch to another avatar. Little to no start up. The old one disappears, the new one appears. If you want to limit this have it so they can only change to the current's element strength or weakness, creating an elemental wheel. Light and Dark are the wildcards, they can be switched to or from at will(and would work. Of course such a change is useless without something being done to BP Timers. I say keep Rage the way it is(turning -BP timer to a mostly offensive stat), but give each Avatar its own Ward timer(-BP timer would still be somewhat useful). The avatar's TP should probably be preserved in some fashion here.

I also see the need for some stronger buffing options. I like the idea of a SMN being able to mimic a BRD because that's a spot which is always in demand. Of course it should be limited by avatar so that BRDs are still the BRDs. BPs don't need to clogged up anymore, so let's make this an ability. SMN uses ability, everyone nearby the avatar gets hit with a song. Which song is dependent on the current avatar. Ifrit is closely related to attack so he can be Minuet. Diabolos or Fenrir could be Ballad. Garuda or Ramuh could be March. And so on. I will leave it up to the reader if they think this ability should have a low enough timer that multiple songs can be thrown out(as in different people with different songs) and the strength of these songs in comparison to Bard's songs(single and double).

INT and MND are both on the Summoner's AF, make them matter more. Have the strength of the avatars been directly tied to it. Make it so a SMN will want to equip his trademark horn, if nothing else. I think a good idea is have INT reduce the cost of Rage BPs and MND reduce Ward BPs. If an Endgame summoner who puts on a lot of INT or MND is able to cut the cost of his BPs by 45%, I'd say that works out nicely.

Also I think any weapon with an avatar's name in it should reduce the perp cost to all other SMNs in the party using that avatar. The weapons from Waking the Beast requires a summon to be up and about to get their full benefit. The least they could do is help a SMN in return. This is kind of a pointless change overall, I just feel like tacking this on.

I didn't really bother much with spirits. I think Kuno's idea fits nicely enough. Letting be instantly switched into or out of doesn't seem like a bad idea.

[Ohemgee]

I'm almost ashamed to have SMN at 75 after reading this thread.

[Mimaru]

The only thing that made any sense at all was when someone stated how avatar's dont take a direct path to the mob when assualt is used. Now that is the only thing I can see that needs to be adjusted for SMN. Make it so as the Avatars come directly to you when summoned/summoned where you stand/go directly to the target you used assualt on. None of the other stuff is needed at all.

All the other things suggested sound as if people are to lazy to learn how to play the job right. MP is rarely an issue for any SMN who knows what they are doing. Also if your only using Rage pacts and not Ward you are doing it WRONG. The fact that you also choose to ignore the fact about summing magic skill effecting abilities made me lol even when it was brought up by the person you have been disagreeing with the majority of the time.

The fact is there is plenty of gear that helps to reduce avatar costs and to have them cost, i think you said 300 mp, would mean in order to do one rage/ward would cost in the area of 900 mp (300 per smn saying your using different avatars +BP.)

[Bagel]

Honest, the only thing that could make summoners more useful is Squeenix decided to let summoners 75 capped spells. So they could go /WHM, /BLM, /SCH, or /RDM and not have to worry about having TWTBW skills.

Didn't they do precisely this with /SCH and Light/Dark arts?

[Spider-Dan]

Make assaulting avatars close to minimum melee range instead of maximum melee range?

[Toksyuryel]

Why are people trying to argue that smn was a "great dd" in single-player FFs? SMN has traditionally been broken-awesome in the early game but limited by lack of mp, somewhat good in the mid game, and absolutely terrible by the end because avatar damage did not scale well if at all. Much like FFXI, previous FFs turned into melee spamfests at the end. This game is by far the most balanced FF game ever created. That's not to say it is well-balanced, it's just a hell of a lot better than the games you are trying to compare it to. Trust me, if you want SE to improve SMN, you want them to move in the OPPOSITE direction of how it traditionally played, because otherwise you are setting yourself up for a big disappointment.

[fantasticdan]

Didn't they do precisely this with /SCH and Light/Dark arts?

I think he means spells not skills. Only spells worth mentioning smn gets from /sch is functional sleep 1, drain, and aspir, at the cost of erase, curaga, reraise, stoneskin, etc.

I've always thought smn should have native cure 1-4, raise 1-2, and pro/shell 1-4, and some amount of healing/enhance skill to go with it, so they can at least function as a decent healer, especially while leveling up. It's silly to be stuck with cure 1 until level 22 for example.

[Yugl]

See this is the reason you SMNs don't get any buffs. You all can't decide on what you want so no matter what SE does it's going to be bitch-bitch-bitch. At least other classes have some uniformity in what would make them more viable in merit PTs, end game activities, and HNMs.

[Lordwafik]

This is the most retarded post I've seen to spawn out of the womb of advanced in a long time.

Bravo Kuno for displaying to the world how retarded you are. Yes, you should work for SE because you would fit right in as part of the most retarded dev team in the world.

[Jordache]

Thread tl;dr Summary:

With the current system in place, what really needs to be done is:
- Have the pet melee the mob at 3-5' instead of the 8-10' they currently default to now
- Lower spirit perpetuation costs, 18mp/tic after gear is not acceptable when you have to wait min. 25 seconds (~150 mp) for it to even act, and then you usually get a P.O.S. spell like rasp (12? mp/tic fully merited isn't that great either)
- Expand the Rage/Ward timer to spirits but limit spell selection to AI (mentioned previously in thread)
- Lower (not eliminate) avatar perp. cost all together, if not then lower BP costs slightly
- Expand Ward range AoE and durations (I'm looking at you fucking useless 45 second crimson howl), Rage range is already ~7-10' which is fine if the assault range is fixed

If none of these are ever implemented the very least that can be done is up the amount of max MP a SMN can get from the job alone. Why can non-galka MNKs break 2000 HP yet a taru SMN/BLM struggles to break 1500 MP? Both classes have the highest respective stat in the game. Giving SMN a little more innate MP to cushion wasted BPs is at the very least a quick fix for the MP-draining parasites we lovingly call avatars.

The gear that's in place now could also use more alternatives. There's only 7 unique NQ/HQ pieces that provide straight-up -perp that are not situational and that don't occupy the same gear slot: 3 HNM staffs (astral, bahamut's and dragon's which is relatively useless), 8 elemental staffs, 2 bodies (YY Robe and austere), 1 hand (Nashira), 1 foot (AF+1) and 1 ring (evoker's) Of those listed only 2 can be used pre-70; its a little bit sad for those leveling the job (but since this is BG who cares amIright?)

More evoker ring-esque items: {Yes please!}

[Not Kuno]

This is the most retarded post I've seen to spawn out of the womb of advanced in a long time.

Bravo Kuno for displaying to the world how retarded you are. Yes, you should work for SE because you would fit right in as part of the most retarded dev team in the world.

Who gives a shit? lol

[phrost]

This is the most retarded post I've seen to spawn out of the womb of advanced in a long time.

Bravo Kuno for displaying to the world how retarded you are. Yes, you should work for SE because you would fit right in as part of the most retarded dev team in the world.

http://www.maniacworld.com/everyone-is-now-dumber.jpg

Don't plagiarize, bro.

[Yugl]

SMN has no purpose. It doesn't have a focal point and as a result all "theories" regarding fixing SMN only refine the limited role it plays. Is it a healer? Is it a DD? Is is a magic DD? Is it a supporter? If you can select one of these and stick with it, it will give your ideas more substance since they will work towards an actual goal instead of some crackpot "Jack of all trades" BS. That isn't to say that SMN cannot have other roundabout characteristics, but it should still have a focus point. DRGs don't seriously bitch about HB as they do about damage against HNMs because a DRG's role is defined as a DD. SMN and PUP are capable of multiple roles, but cannot decide which role they want to focus on.

This is the main problem that they face, and the reason SE cannot fix the problem. They're too busy trying to refine broken material without striving for a goal. Without an underlying idea of what purpose SMN serves, the problem will continue to reoccur over and over until, maybe accidentally, a purpose is created. Giving them new toys (Avatars) will only keep the SMN player base entertained until the graphics wear themselves out. In short, create a purpose for SMN then fix it using that central purpose as a foundation for new implementations.

[shukuffxi]

Yugl's post is pretty spot on. I don't really care HOW they make Summoner useful, just that it becomes so beyond the very limited amount of things it's useful for now. In the past 6 months or so, i've been asked to use my Summoner maybe twice? For ZNM Vampyr. My LS does pretty much everything, and about the only time we see Summoner's in the alliance is at Odin.

[Indalecia]

SMN is the only job SE refuses to let be overpowered at any point. Which is kidna ridiculous how cult it is in the FF universe.

I don't care about how hard you punch something, why you want to melee on rdm or how your wyvern should shoot lightning out of its ass. I'm summoning a being of elemental power. Why the fuck does it get its ass kicked by a crab?

Yes its a rant, get over it.

The whole fucking system needs an overhaul. Not overpowering, but at least balancing. The glitches inherent in the system are so retarded as to be ludicrous. 90% of them are simple little things that annoy and frustrate anyone whos ever summoned.

"Revamp" is too small a word for what is needed.