Worst Endings in the Vidya

[Kaylia]

Griever was the big one too. If you called Griever "Penis" at the end of CD2, in CD4 Ultimecia will summon "Penis", not Griever.

There were more clues, you can just watch this vid here: YouTube - Final Fantasy Theories - Rinoa is Ultimecia.

I personally believe this specific one because it makes a lot of sense. Eternal Sonata sorta does too, but ES is a big mindfuck. A lot of people bitched about the fact that Ultimecia doesn't recognize Squall when they arrive to assassinate her in the future, but if Ultimecia had Griever equipped this entire time she would've had memory loss just like everyone else who had GFs equipped. I'd say that all she remembered was the time compression, and not necessarily the reason to her trying to achieve it.

Never noticed Squall crying in the ending, but if that part is correct, I can totally see why he would get lost in time.

Edea: "It's ok. There's no more need to fight. That sorceress is just looking for someone to pass her powers on to. In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers. I know...for I am one, too. I shall take that sorceress' powers. I don't
want one of the children to become one.
Ultimecia: "I...can't...disappear yet."

And thinking about it, dying Ultimecia totally went to the orphanage to see Squall again (because of the promise), and Squall ended up there because he was following her maybe? Unless it's all coincidence (lame), I don't think we can give any other explanation.



Thinking about this Rinoa/Ultimecia is giving me an hardon. FF8 plot went "wtf at 4th disk" to "awesome". I want to replay the game now...

[The Blackrose]

Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver takes it for me.

It didn't even feel like the end of the game, and all of a sudden you're left with a feeling the game was only half-complete (even if it was long as all hell by platform/adventuring standards) as it gives you a short FMV as you see your main enemy get away, . Had to wait all the way for Soul Reaver2 to come out to continue the story.

Actually, it was half complete. Everything from SR2 and Defiance was supposed to happen, but got cut out due to time constraints. Hell, you can get the Fire Reaver from the underwater cathedral. Also, if I remember right, there was unused sound data on the disc indicating conversations with Turel (which didn't happen until Defiance).

But damn, the entire LoK series and its time line is one big mess.

[Katlan]

Trying to comprehend the Rinoa/Ultimicia theory is making my mind work too hard this early in the morning... Making me want to replay the [awsome] game now

[Maguspk]

Yeah Kaylia, I also want to replay it now because when I beat it when I was a kid I didn't notice any of this stuff. It sounds really interesting but the story is too far out of my mind now to appreciate any of these theories fully. Maybe I'll download a PS emulator and go to town during Christmas break. FF8 and FF9 have got to be my favorites in the series if only because they were doing my introduction to gaming, 9 being my first and 8 being my second. I didn't play 7 until nearly 4 years after playing 9.

[Exoduso]

lol you guys are making me want to replay FF8 too...

Everything Kaylia says is true though. Ultimecia is not Necron, and Ultimecia is not a random boss they decided to slap onto the game. The story was far too interesting and sophisticated for the first 3 CDs to suddenly take a turn for the worst and give you a random castle to mess around with and an even more random boss to kill (4 times no less..)

And you can see her quotes at the end of the 4th battle, which also suggest the time compression and everything else. Squall crying at the end when his life flashes before him pretty much seals the deal for me, since he most likely realizes what he has done at that point.

Watch this vid again, it makes a lot of sense after reading everything Kaylia said: YouTube - Final Fantasy Theories - Rinoa is Ultimecia. ... and so yeah, FF8's ending isn't as lame as people seem to think it is.

[Kaylia]

Replaying the game for this won't add that much. You don't hear about Ultimecia until very late on the 3rd disk, and most event remain the same since they don't refer to it. The implied drama make the 4th disk worthwhile tho when you look back at it.

One thing I wonder is what happened in the alternate future where Rinoa become Ultimecia. Squall died after their fight against Ultimecia? Rinoa is frozen and Squall never save her? Edea never receive ultimecia's power?

[TheDirtyHobo]

One of the problems with the Griever theory is that Griever isn't necessarily linked to the ring. Squall's ring could've been named after the legendary GF, and you're naming the GF in that scene more than naming the ring. Another problem arises when you go from the japanese original script of the game. In that final scene before Ultimecia summons Griever, she says something along the lines of "I'll summon the most powerful of things from your feelings. The stronger you feel, the more it shall torment you." and Griever is stated to be "In Squalls mind, the strongest GF."

The location of a castle is another strong point for this theory, and a lot of people think too many things happen here for it to just be a coincidence, but that location could've been chosen by the dev team to add more significance to the player to get rid of Ultimecia. This was Squall and Rinoa's special spot, and now it's being desecrated by the Sorceresses' castle. Even if from the other perspective, yes, it's just a coincidence that Ultimecia picked that spot, but the rest of the events fall in line nicely. Since they're already at that physical location, the events that happen after she's defeated would naturally occur in that same region. It's time compression, not space compression.

Basically, I would love to believe this and it would be a great twist in the story. I have heard that SE was originally going to make this part of the story but chose not to instead, and maybe those clues were just leftover things that they never changed. It does make the game make a lot more sense compared to "Ok now go to the future and kill that chick that's fuckin' with us."

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h1...evecopyuv9.png

[Exoduso]

Sure makes a lot more sense than going to the future to kill a random sorceress that randomly picked YOUR TIME to start possessing people to do her bidding.

Also I wanted to mention this earlier, but another thing is Ultimecia's obsession with Ellone.. Why would she need HER? Being close to Squall? Or just because, since it's fun making stuff up?
I dunno, too many coincidences to shrug it off as a random sorceress from the future.

[EdgeMoragan]

How in gods name was Blue's scenario from Saga Frontier not mentioned in this thread till now, I will never know.

YouTube - SaGa Frontier Blue Last Battle

You beat the last boss. The battle fades to greytone. -"The End"-. That's all you get.

[Maxxthepenguin]

It makes the FF8 story not suck.

I give it my seal of approval

[Kaylia]

One of the problems with the Griever theory is that Griever isn't necessarily linked to the ring. Squall's ring could've been named after the legendary GF, and you're naming the GF in that scene more than naming the ring. Another problem arises when you go from the japanese original script of the game. In that final scene before Ultimecia summons Griever, she says something along the lines of "I'll summon the most powerful of things from your feelings. The stronger you feel, the more it shall torment you." and Griever is stated to be "In Squalls mind, the strongest GF."

The location of a castle is another strong point for this theory, and a lot of people think too many things happen here for it to just be a coincidence, but that location could've been chosen by the dev team to add more significance to the player to get rid of Ultimecia. This was Squall and Rinoa's special spot, and now it's being desecrated by the Sorceresses' castle. Even if from the other perspective, yes, it's just a coincidence that Ultimecia picked that spot, but the rest of the events fall in line nicely. Since they're already at that physical location, the events that happen after she's defeated would naturally occur in that same region. It's time compression, not space compression.

Basically, I would love to believe this and it would be a great twist in the story. I have heard that SE was originally going to make this part of the story but chose not to instead, and maybe those clues were just leftover things that they never changed. It does make the game make a lot more sense compared to "Ok now go to the future and kill that chick that's fuckin' with us."

It's the major difference between "hints" and "fact". You can brush them off one by one saying "it could be something else", but when you look at the amount of "coincidences" and take into consideration the lacks of any other explanations...it become a lot harder to just brush it off like this.

-Griever
-Flash between Rinoa and Ultimecia during the ending, black/white wings and Squall crying after Rinoa's dies
-Rinoa's line about wanting to freeze time
-Castle's location
-Ultimecia's final quote
-Ultimecia looking like rinoa in the final CG (i usually dont buy this kind of thing, but it still add up)

[Exoduso]

ELLONNNNE, Ultimecia's obsession with Ellone is another one.
And don't forget the whole sacrificing Rinoa to Adel (who is possessed by Ultimecia iirc?), and making Rinoa open Adel's seal in space...

Too many coincidences, they can't all be random.

[Kaylia]

How in gods name was Blue's scenario from Saga Frontier not mentioned in this thread till now, I will never know.

YouTube - SaGa Frontier Blue Last Battle

You beat the last boss. The battle fades to greytone. -"The End"-. That's all you get.

Oh man. Blue was the character I picked in SaGa frontier. I usually don't complain about RPG..but shit...this was just horrible. The plot made no fucking sense, and the random encounter were so unbalanced it was funny.

I beat the final boss with a single character alive and no more healing item, then I saw this. Biggest "wtf" in my gamer life.

[Kaylia]

ELLONNNNE, Ultimecia's obsession with Ellone is another one.
And don't forget the whole sacrificing Rinoa to Adel (who is possessed by Ultimecia iirc?), and making Rinoa open Adel's seal in space...

Too many coincidences, they can't all be random.

I guess, but I don't remember Ellone enough to comment.



In others news, anyone saw the FF3/FF8 links? This article is terrible imo, but the part about Hyne is interesting nonetheless.
RPGamer - Editorials - Final Fantasy III and Final Fantasy VIII: Based on the Same World?

5) In Final Fantasy III, the Sorcerer Hyne took over the Floating Continent and its kingdom of Argass, and was later defeated by the Light Warriors, who happened to be children. When he was defeated, his head disappeared first.

In Final Fantasy VIII, we're told that a being named Hyne was the originator of the Sorceress Power. The people regarded Hyne through legend as having been a god, and, indeed, the creator of Homo Sapiens. In The Legend of Vascaroon (told to some children by a lady named Lina on the White SeeD Ship) we're told that the being Hyne ruled the world (Hyne of Final Fantasy III ruled his world, the Floating Continent). He created Homo Sapiens and then went to sleep. When he awoke, he found that they had multiplied by a vast margin, and he began trying to remove the children (possibly a reference to the fact that children are those who defeated Hyne in Final Fantasy III).

While it doesn't add much, I do think they tried to draw a link by calling the "original sorcerer" Hyne.

[Exoduso]

Interesting.. but I thought Cloud of Darkness was the final boss of FF3? Or is Hyne some other boss?
I honestly haven't played FF3 past the first couple of dungeons heh, it's just like the first 2 FF's... just a bunch of fighting and no real story.

[TheDirtyHobo]

It's the major difference between "hints" and "fact". You can brush them off one by one saying "it could be something else", but when you look at the amount of "coincidences" and take into consideration the lacks of any other explanations...it become a lot harder to just brush it off like this.

-Griever
-Flash between Rinoa and Ultimecia during the ending, black/white wings and Squall crying after Rinoa's dies
-Rinoa's line about wanting to freeze time
-Castle's location
-Ultimecia's final quote
-Ultimecia looking like rinoa in the final CG (i usually dont buy this kind of thing, but it still add up)

Griever - Most obvious, but also one of the least well supported. Griever is hardly ever mentioned within the game between naming him and fighting him. See my other quote for more.

Black/White Wings, Squall crying - the wings don't just morph between white and black, they also disintegrate afterwords. They go from the nothing to white to black to nothing, which I consider more a visual metaphor for life, and then after, Squall most likely saw Rinoa's death, since he can see past present and future during the time compression, which is why he cries.

Rinoa's freeze time line - She was possessed by Ultimecia at this point. It could have very well been her will slipping out through Rinoa's mouth. Not to mention it's a pretty cliche romantic gesture.

Castle's location - By far the strongest argument towards the theory, I don't really have anything on it besides what I've already said earlier.

(Bah I'm getting distracted and nodding off into dreamland, I'll finish it later or something, but there's not much to add. Like I said, I like the theory and it gives a pretty solid ending to the game, but I'm the kind of person that needs hard proof for stuff so I'm kinda playing devil's advocate)

[Kaylia]

It was a boss at some point in the story, but I dont remember much about him. It might just be like Garland in FF9 (reuse the name without any meaning), but it could work.

[Kaylia]

You missed my point I think. I'm saying the amount of hints is what matter here. A single hint will always leave place to interpretation, but when there is many, it raise the probability that there is in fact something to figure. You don't have to explain me how it could be something else, you have to convince me that all those things are just coincidences and that there is better explanation to explain Ultimecia's motive.

Griever - Most obvious, but also one of the least well supported. Griever is hardly ever mentioned within the game between naming him and fighting him. See my other quote for more.

This is exactly why it's so suspcious that she summons a GF named after Squall's ring.

Rinoa's freeze time line - She was possessed by Ultimecia at this point. It could have very well been her will slipping out through Rinoa's mouth. Not to mention it's a pretty cliche romantic gesture.

What Rinoa told was her feeling..have nothing to do with Ultimecia controlling her. There is many cliché that don't involve time. Still a weird coincidence they picked those particular words in the context.

Within 30 seconds, you learn that Rinoa want the present to stand still, and that Ultimecia want to go back to the past. Their desires definitively share some similarities.

[Exoduso]

Squall and Ultimecia have 2 very long chats in Dissidia... I just completed Squall's story ark, but I have absolutely no idea what they're saying lol.
They might just be talking about the Dissidia story events, but maybe there's more to it.

[TheDirtyHobo]

This is exactly why it's so suspcious that she summons a GF named after Squall's ring.

Since we keep coming back to this, I'll restate it. Reading the original japanese script, it heavily implies that Ultimecia draws Griever from Squall mid-fight.

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

Griever may never have truly existed, it could purely be a figment of his imagination, an ideal perfect GF. If it did exist, it seems more likely the ring was named as a tribute to it instead of being the actual means to call it.