RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[arus2001]

Not all RDMs care for tanking or adding yet another couple sets of gear to already clogged inventories.

Saying RDM enhances the party as a whole is kind of a misnomer. Relative to BRD, COR, or SCH, not nearly so. Perhaps even DNC. They're essentially equal to WHMs in enhancing, only later outshined by merited Barspells for resist builds and Shellra V.

I'd also contend the reason why you don't see too many main healing BLUs is in part because of the RDM melee backlash basically telling people to fuck off, some accepting it because they couldn't Refresh or Haste others, and finally a lot of people simply not trying. I strongly believe the two jobs could coexist as melee mages in different ways, but given the difficulty BLU has now in achieving acceptance as a hybrid class who is, for the moment, better designed for the role only speaks volumes of how much difficulty RDM will have in overcoming established stigmas and putting whatever new things that get added to meaningful use.

Anyway, to say a job needs nothing simply shows a lack of imagination. Everyone could and should get something at regular intervals, and not the glacial pace some have been looked at.

If RDM needed a tweak, I wouldn't suggest that it be increasing RDM's melee potential as was suggested. I would however, look into increasing RDM's enfeebling list and maybe even boosting their potential.

Both could be done. The latter for endgame purposes, the former for actually maintaining job theme.

[solsovly]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2393561-post173.html
Idiots are everywhere, be it Alla or BG.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2393338-post164.html
I normally see this kind of response on Allakhazam

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2365098-post700.html
You make this forum sound a bit like Alla BST forum, seriously don't post if you dont have any intelligent view to offer.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2330840-post122.html
Go to Alla BST forum and read the posts,

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2327060-post91.html
Allakazham is one of FFXI premium sites

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2325303-post70.html
I highly recommend checking out BST forum on Alla, if you want to see how a small group of narrow minded ppl try to sabotage a job that has great potential to become a useful lv75 job.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/1992563-post270.html
hmm, lv20 BST trying to prove his points on BG forum, I thought that's the kind of posts you will expect to see on Alla?

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2326051-post77.html
Do you always agree with what they said on Alla BST forum? Things like "Jugpet can hit Tiamat when she is in the air so can any other melee" or "BST with Lars always own ridill WAR".

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/1940739-post40.html
Wow what you have just said really remind me of ppl who usually post on Allakazham. Good luck to your Salvage adventure.

Seriously since when BG has become Alla? You are the one who said RDM has not received any adjustment for 6 years. So what will you call paralyze/slowII?

Since when are RDM meant to be frontline job? RDM is designed to be a versatile job. Like all hybrid jobs it would have invariably ended up as another "situational" job if SE had never bumped RDM's enfeebling magic and given them convert/refresh/haste. Specialisation is what encourage ppl to use a job. The same reason why BRD can never be replaced by COR and WHM by SCH. If ppl want a DD there are millions of melee jobs that will perform better than RDM.

Do you get a referral bonus every time you mention Allakhazam in your post?

Isn't it obvious by now English is not my first language and I don't have the same backgroud as most NA players?

We are lucky that English is your second language. Your posts would be even more unbearable if you could fully articulate your stupidity.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../ahlahalla.jpg

[Lordwafik]

Do you get a referral bonus every time you mention Allakhazam in your post?



We are lucky that English is your second language. Your posts would be even more unbearable if you could fully articulate your stupidity.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../ahlahalla.jpg

THIS IS WHY I LOVE SOLSOVLY

[Septimus]

What I stated did not suggest that people invite RDM for every single enhancement they have. However, because of a few enhancements it can provide (Though Refresh is probably the only needed one), it can play the healer role. I'll go along with what you say and agree that they're invited for their ability to keep up their MP pool. However, how do they achieve this? Through Refresh, which is an enhancing magic.

Well that's just a difference in our views of "need". To me, RDM doesn't need a boost because it's positively viewed in the EG/HNM/Merit scenario. You suggest it needs an improvement to keep it fresh. If taken from your point of view then I'll agree that RDM and a bunch of other classes need improvement, but I don't share that view.

Edit: If RDM needed a tweak, I wouldn't suggest that it be increasing RDM's melee potential as was suggested. I would however, look into increasing RDM's enfeebling list and maybe even boosting their potential.

Red Mages are supposed to be the master of enhancing magic, yet our enhancing magic skill is practically worthless for anything that affects other players. (Oooo. Phalanx II, spend 220,000 XP to be slightly better than SCHs are naturally for no XP.) Refresh and Haste are the same spells from when you get them to when you are level 75 with merits and gear. People don't care about "enhancements", they care about refresh, haste doesn't even matter all that much since you can have someone outside the party do it. It isn't "enhancements", it is "single spell" and "job ability" that makes RDM popular with XP parties or anywhere else in this game.

I have played RDM since day 1 on NA release (ok, day 2, my disks were late), the job has not changed at all since then. You may think it is fine the way it is, but I strongly disagree. That's 5 years of the same spells over and over and over again. The tier 2 merits are barely upgrades- Slow II costs three times as much as Slow, but only has an extra 9~10% (39%) speed reduction, if you put 5 merits (220,000 XP) into it. ("Hi, I'm Carnage Elegy, I'm 50% speed reduction for a level 59 BRD, and I cost 70,000 gil!") The number of mobs that are resistant or outright immune to enfeebling magic just show how irrelevant the skill is- it makes it more convenient for fights, not a life-or-death difference. (Not to mention that WHM, BLM, or SCH can land enfeebles on anything that RDM can land enfeebles on regularly.) RDM is one spell away from complete uselessness in this game- give SCH refresh or just raise the level cap to 85 and see what happens to RDM.

I don't care what the buff is, Tier 2 en-spells, Valor, better enfeebles, anything. I just want something that will make me regret taking this job to 75 just a little less. Seriously, five years of the same monotony, sick of it.

This subject fills me with the intense hatred of 1,000 dark stars ready to obliterate all life in the galaxy.

P.S. For people who think that RDM is fun as a tank, just wait until you try a real tank job! You know, one that has abilities to hold hate and doesn't suck and die two hits after shadows are down. (Hi Paladin!)

[Ahlah]

Do you get a referral bonus every time you mention Allakhazam in your post?



We are lucky that English is your second language. Your posts would be even more unbearable if you could fully articulate your stupidity.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../ahlahalla.jpg

What a fine way to express your little outburst. This is supposed to be a public forum where ppl discuss game strategy and mechaics, if you feel my view is flawed then point it out. Doing thing like this only proves that you are bitter and desparate, go back to Alla where you belong and keep hitting rate down button just because you feel you are humiliated for getting completely trashed.

Read my post again, I don't fight back unless ppl attack me first. Stop being a child and grow up.

[Ahlah]

Secondly, there are two large issues that take away from the viability of using RDM in the ways that posters like Ahlah propose(also you are a fucking moron and I have yet to see you not totally shit up any thread you've ever posted on, but thanks for not bringing up AV here at least).

The first one is that a properly geared RDM does not have inventory room for full melee gear. I know this for damn sure. Even with only carrying 2 staves on me, I am unable to fit both my full TP and WS sets along with my normal casting gear using the available inventory slots. It just doesn't happen. If you can fit full TP and WS gear as RDM, your casting gear is gimped and missing some pieces.

The second issue is that even with full melee gear, a RDM who is playing the job the way you should be with keeping up on your debuffing and support duties, gaining TP is not as fast as you make it out to be. I have a very strong TP setup, max Sword merits, and get HQ Sushi, but between the fact that just keeping myself buffed and keeping up with other RDM duties keeps me damn nearly constantly casting and interrupting my swings, and even if you solve the native Accuracy problems of being a RDM, you still are stuck with low attack, because you just can't pile on loads of both. The best gear for each share the same slots, and against a real high-end mob you're going to hit for 0. Often. I know because I've tried, over and over again.

No offense but ppl really need to use their brain a bit more. You don't have to be the only RDM in your alliance to do everything you just mention. Keep your main RDM focus on tank. Get a RDM to focus on building TP and using DB/skillcahin on HNM. It's really not hard at all. Fighting regular mobs including Sky gods doesn't warrant DB setup, it's just not necessary. We are talking about stuffs like Wryms, TAU HNM etc. Your DB RDM can still throw in refresh/cure etc when the situation calls for it.

The funny thing about AV is even ppl who have carried out extensive AV testing like Mojo agrees with me. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not going to work. This is what forum is for, be polite and ask if you don't understand. There are a lot of smarter ppl out there.

wtf does a brd need for setting up an ES elegy build?
you don't need high skill or high chr when you do ES elegy, the ES basically overwrites your skill, and chr has no effect on potency

It's post like this make me want to cry. You are basically making a fool of yourself and asking for humiliation. And ppl get nasty when I point out they are stupid.
Seriously if you don't understand why, just ask politely, saying things like that is not going to get a nice answer from me.

[Kaeko]

No offense but ppl really need to use their brain a bit more. You don't have to be the only RDM in your alliance to do everything you just mention. Keep your main RDM focus on tank. Get a RDM to focus on building TP and using DB/skillcahin on HNM. It's really not hard at all. Fighting regular mobs including Sky gods doesn't warrant DB setup, it's just not necessary. We are talking about stuffs like Wryms, TAU HNM etc. Your DB RDM can still throw in refresh/cure etc when the situation calls for it.

I don't want to start a flame war (or continue one that's already begun?) but wow this is such an arrogant and misguided statement.

People choose the job setups they do on NMs because of efficiency usually. RDM's has a nice role in nearly every possible job setup / event because it's most efficient at said role. You don't just put a job in a position because it can do it if it's not optimal - unless you're just messing around. A BST/NIN can tank Sky gods. Hell there's a video of a BLM/NIN doing Byakko tanking. It's cool but it's not optimal or efficient.

You can kill Byakko with an Army of RDMs. Just don't try to justify doing it over a more established setup. You can melee HNMs as DD on RDM. I bet you can manage to kill a lot of things like that. Again just don't try to tell anyone it's optimal or even generally viable.

[Kaeko]

wtf does a brd need for setting up an ES elegy build?

you don't need high skill or high chr when you do ES elegy, the ES basically overwrites your skill, and chr has no effect on potency

It's post like this make me want to cry. You are basically making a fool of yourself and asking for humiliation. And ppl get nasty when I point out they are stupid.
Seriously if you don't understand why, just ask politely, saying things like that is not going to get a nice answer from me.

Elemental Seal caps accuracy unless you're about 50 levels below the mob. Even then it probably will work. Elegy slow % is standard and only goes up with the + elegy instrument. The only "ES Elegy Build" equipment wise requires a +2 elegy instrument and I guess the BRD Mythic weapon presumably.

I'm semi-convinced these are troll posts but my faith in the general knowledge of BG posters is still higher than most here.

[Septimus]

Elemental Seal caps accuracy unless you're about 50 levels below the mob. Even then it probably will work. Elegy slow % is standard and only goes up with the + elegy instrument. The only "ES Elegy Build" equipment wise requires a +2 elegy instrument and I guess the BRD Mythic weapon presumably.

I'm semi-convinced these are troll posts but my faith in the general knowledge of BG posters is still higher than most here.

I will give the benefit of the doubt and say that he means fully merited Nightingale and Troubadour since that would make it sync up with Elemental Seal. Build can mean merits, right? (Seriously, everyone play along with this.)

[Ahlah]

That's correct lol. Before SE raised merit II cap it used to take 2 BRD/BLM (without relic horn) to keep ES elegy on HNM all the time. Even now your BRD still have to give up WHM sub for /BLM. And it only works on one spell every 10mins. If you have a DB RDM to carry out skillchain, your BRD can now sub WHM and land threnody on HNM too without limitation of Elemental steal.

May be I should rephrase my statement. DB gives RDM a new role, you can now have your regular debuff RDM, and a different type of RDM whose specialties involve greatly enhancing your mage's magic accuracy (including regular RDM) , carrying out skillchain and crowd control. When situation calls for it, this RDM can switch to regular supportive role and toss in debuff, haste, refresh, cure. All it takes is one RDM/NIN with proper melee gear and some weak mob to build TP on. It's still situational but have great potential if DB + SC actually match the power of Elemental Seal. Is it really that hard to understand?

BTW, if your RDM/NIN can't hit 100TP in 1min with Justice/Joyeuse and proper melee gear against DC mob, you really should quit playing the job.

[Kaeko]

You're assuming DB can raise the MACC of your spells be a significant amount.

By saying something like "oh DB lowers magic evasion, this means you won't need to use ES anymore" is complete extrapolation and assumption. You don't know the relative amounts of MACC gained on ES versus the MEVA lost using DB. How can you possibly say one can replace the other? I can tell you nothing beats ES though because it supercedes all the resist formulas and just makes anything land that's not immune. Early DB tests have been, on the other hand, very disappointing with regards to the MEVA.

To use an analogy, it's like I have a 100 dollar bill and you have a 1 dollar bill. And you try to tell me hey they are both USD, they are interchangable!

[LD]

To use an analogy, it's like I have a 100 dollar bill and you have a 1 dollar bill. And you try to tell me hey they are both USD, they are interchangable!

That's a very good analogy.

[Ahlah]

You're assuming DB can raise the MACC of your spells be a significant amount.

By saying something like "oh DB lowers magic evasion, this means you won't need to use ES anymore" is complete extrapolation and assumption. You don't know the relative amounts of MACC gained on ES versus the MEVA lost using DB. How can you possibly say one can replace the other? I can tell you nothing beats ES though because it supercedes all the resist formulas and just makes anything land that's not immune. Early DB tests have been, on the other hand, very disappointing with regards to the MEVA.

To use an analogy, it's like I have a 100 dollar bill and you have a 1 dollar bill. And you try to tell me hey they are both USD, they are interchangable!

I dont' have solid proof myself, part of the evidence comes from wiki. If you read the statement apparently DB allows BRD to land Elegy on HNM without elemental seal.

Personally I dont think DB alone will ever come close to Elemental Seal, it will be broken and completely defeat the purpose of ES. The fact that SE make DB the only mythic weapon skill that's capable of opening both light and dark skillchain does look suspicious. We all know MB raise magic accuracy (significant amount any BLM can tell you this), DB + skillchain will definitely be the 2nd most optimal condition to land a spell behind Elemental seal. Skillchain will also improve your BLM damage output. And it works on all spells and all mage in your alliance can benefit it. I dont' think it's really too much to assign a RDM to carry out such a simple duty in important fight.

P/S: all mythic weaponskills appear to have a common behaviour, they are either multihit or magical based, which make ideal skillchain weaponskill because they are less likely (or impossible) to miss. The only exception I can think of is Mandalic Stab but THF already have SA and TA.

[Vail]

I will give the benefit of the doubt and say that he means fully merited Nightingale and Troubadour since that would make it sync up with Elemental Seal. Build can mean merits, right? (Seriously, everyone play along with this.)

That's correct lol.

... previously...

my 64 brd can land ES elegy on HNMs, the only problem is I don't have Troubadour.

It's post like this make me want to cry. You are basically making a fool of yourself and asking for humiliation. And ppl get nasty when I point out they are stupid.
Seriously if you don't understand why, just ask politely, saying things like that is not going to get a nice answer from me.

for someone trying to call me out not knowing stuff, that I already pointed out in the post you're trying to call out... I'm well aware of the power of EST+elegy I'm the one that basicly got Linkshells on siren to even start using it in the first place. (and that's when my brd was lv26 and every single brd75 in my LS said ES didn't work on bard songs)

also even before the 5 merit cap on category2, you could still have EST elegy on for 864 out of 900sec(15minutes) with 2 brds so long as they have a horn+1 (every bard has this) and lv3 troub on both brds. if 26 seconds out of 15minutes isn't enough for you... then what?

either way: I'd rather have a brd/blm who can't cure/na then a rdm/nin trying to gain TP and use Death Blossom. EST elegy will always land, and DB will not guarntee anything to land. And a rdm that isn't meleeing makes a shit ton better healer then a brd/whm. That's what we call a win/win

[Keria]

If you read the statement apparently DB allows BRD to land Elegy on HNM without elemental seal.

Test it yourself before quoting a wiki as fact. It's pretty unwise to say "Death Blossom will do blahblah blahblah and blahblah and give us all blowjobs and cookies" when you don't have any data to support it. A wiki that anyone can edit is not evidence. In addition if that is true and DB increases the 5% or whatever chance to 15% it's still not exactly gonna win any prizes, is it.

It's post like this make me want to cry. You are basically making a fool of yourself and asking for humiliation. And ppl get nasty when I point out they are stupid.

Oh irony~

[Callisto]

Test it yourself before quoting a wiki as fact. It's pretty unwise to say "Death Blossom will do blahblah blahblah and blahblah and give us all blowjobs and cookies" when you don't have any data to support it. A wiki that anyone can edit is not evidence. In addition if that is true and DB increases the 5% or whatever chance to 15% it's still not exactly gonna win any prizes, is it.

This is exactly the point I was making. I personally have tried Death Blossom on many mobs, and from experience rather than talking out of my ass or quoting a wiki, I can tell you it's just not that hot. Death Blossom is fantastic for Skillchain properties when doing lowman things, and that's about it in terms of really relying on it. It by no means replaces Elemental Seal.

Sure it can give you a 2% chance to land a spell that a mob is normally heavily resistant or possibly immune to. Guess what? There's almost always some small chance of landing that spell. I've seen SMN/WHM and NIN/DRK land Paralyze and Bind on Kirin. I've slept and bound IT+ mobs as PLD/RDM and PLD/DRK. If the mob isn't flat out immune to something, there's always a small % chance something can land.

Until you can come here with some more proof past spouting off wiki conclusions that you didn't even bother to test or come up with yourself that Death Blossom can be a reliable replacement for Elemental Seal, quit trolling. The wiki has many inaccuracies, overstatements, and understatements, don't just come in here with blah blah blah the wiki says this so we should all do it that way, this isn't the forums for that stupid shit.

[SenseiFF11]

This is what I tried extremely hard with my low skill english, to explain for 2 pages now, but it looks like they understood you better eh.
Yes people will find the argument of merits tier II, wich does not count cause SE had no choices to give it to RDM. This job need an adjustments, RDM and NIN are the 2 jobs that are waiting for a very long time now. Someone that come on this thread pretending that RDM don't need anything need to re-think more.

En-spells, Phalanx, Stoneskin, bar-spells, and Aquaviel are enhancement spells also; people don't invite RDMs for those spells. People invite them because they can keep up their MP pool. The how doesn't matter.

RDM does need a boost, it has not changed since 2004. (Tier 2 merits do not count, they are all spells that have existed in the DAT files for years now.) All jobs need changes from time to time to keep them from being boring and stale. And right now, RDM is very, very stale and boring.

[SenseiFF11]

Red Mages are supposed to be the master of enhancing magic, yet our enhancing magic skill is practically worthless for anything that affects other players. (Oooo. Phalanx II, spend 220,000 XP to be slightly better than SCHs are naturally for no XP.) Refresh and Haste are the same spells from when you get them to when you are level 75 with merits and gear. People don't care about "enhancements", they care about refresh, haste doesn't even matter all that much since you can have someone outside the party do it. It isn't "enhancements", it is "single spell" and "job ability" that makes RDM popular with XP parties or anywhere else in this game.

I have played RDM since day 1 on NA release (ok, day 2, my disks were late), the job has not changed at all since then. You may think it is fine the way it is, but I strongly disagree. That's 5 years of the same spells over and over and over again. The tier 2 merits are barely upgrades- Slow II costs three times as much as Slow, but only has an extra 9~10% (39%) speed reduction, if you put 5 merits (220,000 XP) into it. ("Hi, I'm Carnage Elegy, I'm 50% speed reduction for a level 59 BRD, and I cost 70,000 gil!") The number of mobs that are resistant or outright immune to enfeebling magic just show how irrelevant the skill is- it makes it more convenient for fights, not a life-or-death difference. (Not to mention that WHM, BLM, or SCH can land enfeebles on anything that RDM can land enfeebles on regularly.) RDM is one spell away from complete uselessness in this game- give SCH refresh or just raise the level cap to 85 and see what happens to RDM.

I don't care what the buff is, Tier 2 en-spells, Valor, better enfeebles, anything. I just want something that will make me regret taking this job to 75 just a little less. Seriously, five years of the same monotony, sick of it.

This subject fills me with the intense hatred of 1,000 dark stars ready to obliterate all life in the galaxy.

P.S. For people who think that RDM is fun as a tank, just wait until you try a real tank job! You know, one that has abilities to hold hate and doesn't suck and die two hits after shadows are down. (Hi Paladin!)

My friend, you just found out something interesting, when you mentionned that our "enhancing magic skill is practically worthless for anything that affects other players." Know why? simply because SE don't wanted RDM to be a party enhancer, his main job was enfeeb. The enhancing magic was mainly for himself, like you realised. The only reason RDM have a high enhancing magic it's to fit with the fact that RDM will focus on enfeebling magic and dot when fighting.(My definition of enfeebling magic here is very extended, I'm not only talking about the spells that are affected by enfeebling magic skills, but I includes dot such as bio, and if we want to extend that definition we can even include enspells that looks like some kind of an enfeebling aspect of the game cause it dot the target. I know enspells is enhancing though.)
So when I say enfeebling and "dot" style I'm talking in general, not only poison and bio, but enspells too are some kinds of dot. Enfeebling magic and dot = long battle, you'll need high survivability, that is why they gave them a high enhancing magic. And for sure it's also because RDM is the true example of versatility, flexibility, they can have the "best of the 2 world", if we can say it that way.
This is why DRK have a very low physical DEF, because they already have the highest attack bonus. They gave high enhancing magic to the RDM for him mainly to fit it with his "enfeebling style" battle, not for party members.

That's why I keep repeating that, the "way" SCH is designed is a clear and evident message from SE!!:"If RDM was an enhancer like you guys think, he was going to have regenII, bar-ga, enspells-ga, phalanx-ga, and ect ect ect". Everything the SCH is doing!

It's very obvious that the way SCH is designed is how people was seeing RDM in the old days. But SE released SCH and said, nope! RDM enhancing magic is mainly for himself.
And I said it many times too, people don't have to agree idm, but the "melee" part of the RDM need to be enhanced to accentuate the difference between SCH and RDM, to accentuate the difference in the "definition" of those 2 jobs. If you read the "definition" of those 2 jobs, the difference is "sword" XD. Let's be patient and wait for that RDM update.

What I want from this thread is to actually share ideas of what RDM and WHM could/should get that will make people want them to the front. Complaining about an update is useless because they are going to get an update anyway!

Here is my suggestion: I was there like you Septimus, when they added refresh, and it changed everything, and it changed more when they added convert, it changed many things about rdm melee. My suggestion is if they want to make people get beneficial effect from striking like they said, make it available on refresh, haste, and maybe regen, like DCN's samba. And who know? maybe new beneficial effect never seen before.

[Charismatic]

QUOTE THEN TEXT

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HOW HARD COULD THAT BE?

[SenseiFF11]

QUOTE THEN TEXT

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HOW HARD COULD THAT BE?

Scroll up, I changed it I hope that is better. Now I want you to say at least what you think about what I said, and my proposition to a "possible" rdm and whm change. Cause this thread is going nowhere.