RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Yugl]

And I said it many times too, people don't have to agree idm, but the "melee" part of the RDM need to be enhanced to accentuate the difference between SCH and RDM, to accentuate the difference in the "definition" of those 2 jobs. If you read the "definition" of those 2 jobs, the difference is "sword" XD. Let's be patient and wait for that RDM update.

Well I don't see why RDM improvements need to come through melee ability. To me, it would just make for complicated scenarios that Ahlah is trying to advocate. Why not just make a spell similar to Dia/Bio (Lands, but duration may act as a resist) that gives Magic ATT/ACC down and Magic DEF/EVAs down? I agree that RDM's strength is in its enfeebling skill, and because of that, I don't see the need to increase its melee potential. All improvements to RDM can come through its spells, not necessarily its melee skill.

Red Mages are supposed to be the master of enhancing magic, yet our enhancing magic skill is practically worthless for anything that affects other players. (Oooo. Phalanx II, spend 220,000 XP to be slightly better than SCHs are naturally for no XP.) Refresh and Haste are the same spells from when you get them to when you are level 75 with merits and gear. People don't care about "enhancements", they care about refresh, haste doesn't even matter all that much since you can have someone outside the party do it. It isn't "enhancements", it is "single spell" and "job ability" that makes RDM popular with XP parties or anywhere else in this game.

As noted earlier, I think RDM's role as a supporter comes from its ability to enfeeble the mob. If improvements are made, I would rather see them applied to RDM's enfeebling abilities rather than melee abilities. The reason I noted RDM's healing ability is because someone mentioned that RDM is just a glorified WHM and BLM. I was pointing out that RDM was designed as a supporter, but because of the way it was designed, it can act as healer (Refresh, Haste, Protect, Shell, Cure IV, and Phalanx though mainly because of the first two spells). If RDM were stripped of its support components, I doubt it would pose as much of a threat to WHMs. So while it may be one enhancement spell that keeps it running better than WHM, it is still better.

The points I tried to address were:

Is RDM incomplete (Unable to perform its role) without a melee component? No I don't think so, any improvements RDM "need" can be done through enhancing RDM's role as enhancer/enfeebler.

Why is RDM better than WHM? Because of its ability to keep its MP up. How does it achieve this? Refresh. Why does it have refresh? Because its a support role that gains access to enfeebles and enhancements.

On that note, WHM should get a trait that allows them to recover MP proportional to the amount of HP they cure.

[evilpaul]

Test it yourself before quoting a wiki as fact. It's pretty unwise to say "Death Blossom will do blahblah blahblah and blahblah and give us all blowjobs and cookies" when you don't have any data to support it. A wiki that anyone can edit is not evidence. In addition if that is true and DB increases the 5% or whatever chance to 15% it's still not exactly gonna win any prizes, is it.

Oh irony~

brb, adding "Ahlah is a retard" to otherWiki's DB page.

(And I still want to know what the BLMs are magic bursting on the second SC by a DB RDM from page 3 at Ouryu. Not that Ahlah has ever seen Ouryu in person.)

QUOTE THEN TEXT

QUOTE THEN TEXT

HOW HARD COULD THAT BE?

It's entirely appropriate to do it his way! This is 1992 and USENET, right?

[The Blackrose]

It's entirely appropriate to do it his way! This is 1992 and USENET, right?

Not to get entirely off topic, but either way is fine. Look at e-mail. If you're replying to something, do you make the recipient go through all of the crap you've sent back and forth to each other in order to make your next move? It can go either way. People are just used to quoting first because there's not a few breaks between the opening of the message field and the quote syntax. God help us all, we could be arguing about date-month instead of month-date next.

Anyways, back to this "Ahlah is a retard" talk...

EDIT: Are you using a different post per page limit Paul? I can't see the SC/Ouryu crap on page 3. Page 6 for those of us viewing at default.

People MB Aero on Ouryu? lolwut?

[Charismatic]

Not to get entirely off topic, but either way is fine.

You follow the norms, it doesn't matter that you do that with e-mail.
The formatting here makes it more annoying to read because other posts are not done in that style.
It's really that simple.

[evilpaul]

True, but putting quotes up top is the standard on message boards such as this one.

The BLM/BRD MBing@Ouryu was somewhere a bunch of pages back. I didn't want to go looking for it.

[SenseiFF11]

Well I don't see why RDM improvements need to come through melee ability. To me, it would just make for complicated scenarios that Ahlah is trying to advocate. Why not just make a spell similar to Dia/Bio (Lands, but duration may act as a resist) that gives Magic ATT/ACC down and Magic DEF/EVAs down? I agree that RDM's strength is in its enfeebling skill, and because of that, I don't see the need to increase its melee potential. All improvements to RDM can come through its spells, not necessarily its melee skill.



As noted earlier, I think RDM's role as a supporter comes from its ability to enfeeble the mob. If improvements are made, I would rather see them applied to RDM's enfeebling abilities rather than melee abilities. The reason I noted RDM's healing ability is because someone mentioned that RDM is just a glorified WHM and BLM. I was pointing out that RDM was designed as a supporter, but because of the way it was designed, it can act as healer (Refresh, Haste, Protect, Shell, Cure IV, and Phalanx though mainly because of the first two spells). If RDM were stripped of its support components, I doubt it would pose as much of a threat to WHMs. So while it may be one enhancement spell that keeps it running better than WHM, it is still better.

The points I tried to address were:

Is RDM incomplete (Unable to perform its role) without a melee component? No I don't think so, any improvements RDM "need" can be done through enhancing RDM's role as enhancer/enfeebler.

Why is RDM better than WHM? Because of its ability to keep its MP up. How does it achieve this? Refresh. Why does it have refresh? Because its a support role that gains access to enfeebles and enhancements.

On that note, WHM should get a trait that allows them to recover MP proportional to the amount of HP they cure.

I'm agree in some way, but on the subject of what RDM "needs", are we going to say that RDM need more enhancing/enfeebling? Don't they have enough things on that part yet? isn't time to work on the melee? especially with the lolenspells1 that is supposed to "define" a red mage frontline, and yet those spells are available on sub? And sadly people don't even need to be high level to access those enspells but need to be level 54? and now SCH can cast it on any party members, when enspells is supposed to define a red mage frontline?
Sword enchantments was supposed to be the only thing that make the difference between others melee and a red mage melee. mmm but you mentionned that they need to give more enhancing abilities to the Red Mages, so that include enspells aswell, that is why I'm agree in someway.
My point is let's no think that enhancing magic or enfeebling magic means "backline" duties, cause it is false. Weapons enchancements spells exist in ffseries in many forms(not only elementals), and hopefully SE will consider that.

[SenseiFF11]

Not to get entirely off topic, but either way is fine. Look at e-mail. If you're replying to something, do you make the recipient go through all of the crap you've sent back and forth to each other in order to make your next move? It can go either way. People are just used to quoting first because there's not a few breaks between the opening of the message field and the quote syntax. God help us all, we could be arguing about date-month instead of month-date next.

Anyways, back to this "Ahlah is a retard" talk...

EDIT: Are you using a different post per page limit Paul? I can't see the SC/Ouryu crap on page 3. Page 6 for those of us viewing at default.

People MB Aero on Ouryu? lolwut?

that is what I though too, I though it was not that important. But it looks like doing so make a difference between "an idiot" or "USENET user" and someone "intelligent" on this forum. So eh what else can I do?

[The Blackrose]

True, but putting quotes up top is the standard on message boards such as this one.

Already conceded that one. Guess it doesn't bother me because I've seen it done both ways.

The BLM/BRD MBing@Ouryu was somewhere a bunch of pages back. I didn't want to go looking for it.

Yeah, I found it. He said what to MB on both sides of the coin. The question becomes why bother going through all the trouble of MBing Aero/Blizzard series when you can burn him down like Tiamat's retarded cousin. Talk about a waste of time. If you're getting semi-full resists on Ouryu, skillchains are not going to save you.

[SenseiFF11]

Enspells tier II(if ever added) reduce the resistance of the target against that elemental(exemple, enfireII reduce resistance against fire), plus some additional enfeeb on some of them.(exemple: enthunder reduce resistance vs lightning and have a chance to stun), that will be a good idea imo. If they add enfeeb on those enspells I don't think it will affect all enspells, same way like ice spikes paralyze and blaze spikes only deal dmg.

For WHM something that will make a % of DMG dealt by the whm into MP will be a good idea too since in the interview they said: "Gondai: Yes, like that. Other jobs can restore their own MP, so we are thinking of a White Mage getting the chance to melee up front while being able to keep their own MP up."

[Ahlah]

Anyways, back to this "Ahlah is a retard" talk...

EDIT: Are you using a different post per page limit Paul? I can't see the SC/Ouryu crap on page 3. Page 6 for those of us viewing at default.

People MB Aero on Ouryu? lolwut?

Jesus, another perfect example of idiot asking for humiliation.
The fact that you even asked this questions just show how much you know about this game.
When RDM open skillchain with DB, it's going to wake Ouryu and chances are she will go straight into sky. To complete the skillchain you need range weaponskill, use RNG to close light and MB Aero or COR to close dark and MB Ice.

I finally understand why SE simply ignore ppl who keep drilling on AV/PW. There are always retards whose brain can only cope with low level stuffs. Anything slightly more complex will probably put them in coma.

[The Blackrose]

Jesus, another perfect example of idiot asking for humiliation

Once again, Mr. Montoya would like to have a word with you.

http://www.mandypatinkin.net/PB/sminigo1.jpeg

You keep using these words. I do not think it means what you think it means.

EDIT: Also, you 100% failed at reading comprehension, considering I didn't bring up any weaponskills at all. Good game. Have a seat.

[Thiefami]

Well I don't see why RDM improvements need to come through melee ability. To me, it would just make for complicated scenarios that Ahlah is trying to advocate. Why not just make a spell similar to Dia/Bio (Lands, but duration may act as a resist) that gives Magic ATT/ACC down and Magic DEF/EVAs down? I agree that RDM's strength is in its enfeebling skill, and because of that, I don't see the need to increase its melee potential. All improvements to RDM can come through its spells, not necessarily its melee skill.



As noted earlier, I think RDM's role as a supporter comes from its ability to enfeeble the mob. If improvements are made, I would rather see them applied to RDM's enfeebling abilities rather than melee abilities. The reason I noted RDM's healing ability is because someone mentioned that RDM is just a glorified WHM and BLM. I was pointing out that RDM was designed as a supporter, but because of the way it was designed, it can act as healer (Refresh, Haste, Protect, Shell, Cure IV, and Phalanx though mainly because of the first two spells). If RDM were stripped of its support components, I doubt it would pose as much of a threat to WHMs. So while it may be one enhancement spell that keeps it running better than WHM, it is still better.

The points I tried to address were:

Is RDM incomplete (Unable to perform its role) without a melee component? No I don't think so, any improvements RDM "need" can be done through enhancing RDM's role as enhancer/enfeebler.

Why is RDM better than WHM? Because of its ability to keep its MP up. How does it achieve this? Refresh. Why does it have refresh? Because its a support role that gains access to enfeebles and enhancements.

I think before they fix anything you need to define the role of your job. :D

[Ahlah]

Once again, Mr. Montoya would like to have a word with you.

http://www.mandypatinkin.net/PB/sminigo1.jpeg

You keep using these words. I do not think it means what you think it means.

EDIT: Also, you 100% failed at reading comprehension, considering I didn't bring up any weaponskills at all. Good game. Have a seat.

You are asking why ppl should MB Aero on Ouryu, the reason why I suggested Aero is to take advantage of the effect of DB + skillchain, if you bring RNG (the only melee job that can deal consistent damage on Ouryu using sleep nuke strategy), it makes sense to close light skillchain, if you have COR they can close dark and MB ice which is more commonly used.

Stop digging your own grave, it's clearly beyond your level of knowledge, it took 4-5 pages and 2-3 days of debate for ppl like you to understand such a simple concept that any experienced endgame player should have picked up the first time I posted it.

[The Blackrose]

Stop digging your own grave, it's clearly beyond your level of knowledge, it took 4-5 pages and 2-3 days of debate for ppl like you to understand such a simple concept that any experienced endgame player should have picked up the first time I posted it.

The only debate you have provided is the ramblings of a dysfunctional retard whose only sole purpose in life is to listen to himself go on and on thinking he is hot shit. Newsflash you no-talent egotistical twat: no one is ever going to accommodate to your half-assed crackpot bullshit when an already superior strategy exists. But then again, I doubt you have even an inkling of experience beyond the Salvage gear you obtained by sucking off god knows who while playing with yourself. So do us all of a favor and go right back to FFXIclopedia so you can entertain them with your nit-witted banter. For someone who likes to constantly bitch that BG is becoming Allakhazam, you seem to have no problem dragging it down that way.

But then again, I don't expect you to understand this because your grasp of the English language is so atrocious, you made a pack of Mexicans go "Que?" So tell me, do you like Good Will Hunting? Because you sure look like this guy at the moment:

http://cdn.nhl.com/stars/images/uplo...tingApples.jpg

I have your number. How do you like dem apples?

[chazzyphizzle]

I like dose applez.

[Keria]

Jesus, another perfect example of idiot asking for humiliation....

I finally understand why SE simply ignore ppl who keep drilling on AV/PW. There are always retards whose brain can only cope with low level stuffs. Anything slightly more complex will probably put them in coma.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, y'know.

[Vail]

god damn it blackrose you're making my side hurt from laughing too much.

god damn it I love Good Will Hunting

[Jeryhn]

I don't see why a 9 page thread was necessary for this topic.
Stand back. I'm going to predict... the future!

...

Okay I'm back. Here's the goods:

WHM is going to get an increase in shield skill.
RDM is going to get Tier 2 Enspells.

And there's your WHM/RDM frontline update, ladies and gentlemen.

[Headache]

Enspells tier II(if ever added) reduce the resistance of the target against that elemental(exemple, enfireII reduce resistance against fire), plus some additional enfeeb on some of them.(exemple: enthunder reduce resistance vs lightning and have a chance to stun), that will be a good idea imo. If they add enfeeb on those enspells I don't think it will affect all enspells, same way like ice spikes paralyze and blaze spikes only deal dmg.

Enfire II adds Burn effect, unresistable(you know what I mean) like Bio/Dia. But I like this elemental resistance down idea.

For WHM something that will make a % of DMG dealt by the whm into MP will be a good idea too since in the interview they said: "Gondai: Yes, like that. Other jobs can restore their own MP, so we are thinking of a White Mage getting the chance to melee up front while being able to keep their own MP up."

Between the damage dealt- effect on all melee WHM hits, how about the other thing that kills our mp, Haste cycles. I freakin hate Haste cycles. Give me a Hastega that costs half what a normal cycle would cost.

The fact that you even asked this questions just show how much you know about this game.
When RDM open skillchain with DB, it's going to wake Ouryu and chances are she will go straight into sky. To complete the skillchain you need range weaponskill, use RNG to close light and MB Aero or COR to close dark and MB Ice.

I haven't been able to go to HNMs, seeing as I'm quitting WHM now, but unless the mob takes bonus damage from Aero, then burst Light with Thunder. We were in Nyzul, and I automatically hit Holy for Light sc from all my soloing, but BLM hit Thunder IV... I stopped casting Holy after that.

I finally understand why SE simply ignore ppl who keep drilling on AV/PW. There are always retards whose brain can only cope with low level stuffs. Anything slightly more complex will probably put them in coma.

They ignore us because they don't want to answer. They're the last bosses of the game that we aren't allowed to throw our half-assed "Throw 16 of xx job at the mob" strategies on.

For someone who likes to constantly bitch that BG is becoming Allakhazam, you seem to have no problem dragging it down that way.

He's aiming lower. Think more /B/G.

[SenseiFF11]

Enfire II adds Burn effect, unresistable(you know what I mean) like Bio/Dia. But I like this elemental resistance down idea.

Between the damage dealt- effect on all melee WHM hits, how about the other thing that kills our mp, Haste cycles. I freakin hate Haste cycles. Give me a Hastega that costs half what a normal cycle would cost.

Yep, that's right, they need to fix the number of casting of RDM and WHM, if they want them to melee. I think they'll do it though. From that interview, SE said they will add something for RDM and WHM that will produce some beneficial result from striking the enemy. My idea about it was it will be a spell or a JA that will make Refresh, haste and maybe regen obtainable by party members after striking the mob like the DCN's samba. I think SE know how to bring a job to the front, especially after releasing DCN's. Their abilities are available after striking the ennemy. That is what SE intend to do(interview), but then what will be those "beneficial result".

I'm pretty sure they'll do that on refresh and haste though, I think they want to reduce the number of casting of RDM and WHM, and I'm pretty sure we'll see some new beneficial status never seen before. Maybe "Regain" for exemple available after striking the ennemy? Indeed, people will ask rdm and whm to come and melee sometimes.