RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Callisto]

I've seen multiple instances of a single RDM keeping Elementals and worms slept the entire fight...protip: the resistance doesn't get that bad if you don't take 28 minutes to kill Ouryu because you're trying to use some shitty strategy involving Death Blossom and Rangers.

Maybe you should look into having better RDMs, if they can't mange to hold an Elemental by themselves in Ouryu Cometh, they probably can't even hit the damn Elemental to get TP for their awful Death Blossom.

[Ziero]

Warning, long post:

What telling you that those new "toys" like you say, will not allow them meleeing "things they can't melee"?. And you don't explain "why" they can't melee those things. I'll tell you later the main problems about the RDM and WHM melee.

Because they can't hit those things without the proper gear, subs and food. There are mobs they can hit with just melee gear while still using a mage sub and food, but that's not enough for most melee Rdm.

DCN's abilities is not going to work against RDM and WHM, never ever.

Samba's do not stack with En-spells. Nor do they stack with any other added effect from strikes or other Sambas. And you want to give Rdm and Whm more things that do not stack with Sambas.

You say "any melee boost they give them will not be enough to "fix" any problems they already had", but you can't even tell us what that "problem" is. I'll tell you the most important problems about RDM and WHM melee.
The first issue about RDM and WHM melee is the "buff cycle" as people call it, or in another word they are busy. That is the first issue. If we can't get agree on that part, we're not playing the same game. Conclusion, we need to lower the number of casting to help them.
Secondly it's the accuracy, like I said early, from that interview, we can expect an enhancement on the RDM attack skill. Those are the 2 main problems about the melee subject.
Some people have mentionned refreshga and hastega in the past for that reason.(They are busy). The goal by making beneficial status from striking is to lower their number of casting.

They're not wanted to melee because their melee abilities fail hard against large mobs while their casting abilities are excessively awesome. It's as simple as that. As long as their melee abilities suck and magic abilities rock, they're going to be wanted as casters for larger monsters and events.

DCN's is not accepting in end-game as much as RDM and WHM for many reasons, it have nothing to do with the "beneficial effect" from striking. That job was mainly made for SUB and for low level party. So let's keep out the DCN's problem to get end-game invite please lol. It's not going to happen to RDM or WHM.

Dnc can lower a mobs Evasion, Defense, Magic Defense, stun attacks, open SC, erase status downs, and give melees 10% JA haste and they're still not wanted on big things. Why? Because they have to melee and do it poorly. Even with melee gear, subs, food and abilities. And Dnc isn't "just" a sub job, it's a strong job in it's own right, it just needs some work to hold it's own on larger mobs and events. And a good start to that would be the ability to cure outside the party. But that's a different topic.

Now my question is, do you have any proposition? Do you prefer refreshga and hastega? If yes, do you really think that giving refreshga to RDM and hastega to RDM/and/or/WHM will help them moving to the "front"? I don't think so, they will keep staying back and cast those spells. One of the best way to do that is to mirror what DCN is doing if we want them to melee, and I'm happy SE realised that.
What is your proposition?

My proposition is to give Rdm and Whm abilities to help them support better on larger mobs and events. They don't need melee buffs because they're not melee jobs. Hell, even if they did give Rdm some sort of melee Buff they still won't be able to melee mobs they can't fight now and that's a fact.

See: Ouryu

I'm entirely agree that the RDM and WHM melee have many problems. But like I said in my post early the "main" problems is the "buff cycle" and the accuracy like you mentionned.
As for the melee gears here is what I think. I prefer SE to add something to give more ACC to the RDM such as a spell instead of making gears. And I think that is why SE didn't added so much melee gears for RDM to not break the "red mage image". I prefer to not have to sacrifice my mp, my magic accuracy only to boost myself with accuracy. I think you know what I mean. If I have the choice between an accuracy bonus spell or an increase from a B to an A, or getting accuracy gears, I'll prefer to not have to replace my AF2 and nashira legs and ect just to get more accuracy. I believe if they want to give accuracy to RDM and WHM it should be a spell or a JA.

First off, your idea to lighten a Rdm's casting load and not cause them to lose MP is to give them another spell? Second, Dnc has the same weapon skill as Rdm and two natural Acc bonuses, on top of that they can use melee gear and food and yet they still have trouble hitting the big mobs for anything noticable or useful.

Here is what I always said about RDM melee: Blue mage is a BLM-frontline. DCN is a WHM-frontline, RDM could be what SCH is to the backlines. That means he could get enhancing magic that will enhance his combat skills for a period of time, same like SCH is doing with grimoires.(They have D skills in all school of magic without grimoire).

Blu is a DD who does Dmg with magic, but since it's spells are directly tied to TP and melee stats it needs to melee. However a Blm's nuke will always be stronger then a Blu's spells. Dnc can buff, debuff and heal, but it's all done through TP gain, so it has to melee. But a Whm can buff and heal far better then a Dnc can. Now Rdm and Sch are two completely different beasts because both can heal, nuke, buff and debuff. But where a Sch can only do one action at a time, and needs to switch between styles, burning JAs to do it, a Rdm can do anything and everything all at the same time. On top of that Rdms are far better suited for meleeing, tanking and soloing then Sch is. Giving Rdm more of a melee skill increase over Sch won't help differentiate the two anymore then they already are.

I'm enterely agree that there are many issue with the RDM and WHM melee. But if we want to solve the most important, let's reduce the number of casting of those 2 jobs(make them a little less busy), and give them the chance to hit the mob.

Why do Rdm and Whm even need to hit the mob in the first place?

Were you really trying to prove the RDM "direct dmg" is lower than others melee? Cause we all knew that.
Do you really know the difference between RDM DMG's type and other melee DMG's type? It looks like not, because you are comparing "direct damage" of RDM and others melee.
RDM is not a DD, he's a "DOTer". His DMG over time will challenge any DD in the game.
If we talk about WS dmg, or "direct dmg", RDM is not efficient at it. Simply because RDM is a DOTer. I don't want, and never said I wanted RDM to outdmg any DD in thegame. There is "direct damage" and "damage over time". If you check the DOT dmg next time in your analyzes, you'll come to the conclusion that RDM challenge any DD in this game.

ALL Melee DDs are about DPS...or as you put it, DOT. That's the main function of every single melee DD in this game, to do as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time possible. It's why Haste gear and Acc gear are so prized, it makes us hit faster and more often. No, a Rdm will not be "challenging" any competantly equiped melee in DPS, DOT or any other form of pure melee Dmg. Melee jobs are built to melee, they get the skills, stats and abilities to enhance their damage outputs. Rdm is built to be versitile, it has the ability to fit numerous roles, just not as well as a pure breed of said role. The only exception is that Rdm is the master of enfeebling, something no job can do as well as a Rdm...and that aspect of the class should be enhanced.

You see, you are talking about "AOE" that can kill a RDM and ect, you say that if he sub war he don't have shadow and ect.
When you present an issue about RDM melee, please make sure that this issue can't be presented to "any" other job in this game. If I can present your issue to any job in this game, then you are just trying extremely hard to find a reason to not let a RDM melee. That's when you lose your objectivity.

If you are on the front lines and get hit with an AoE, you are wasting MP. It means you either have to cure yourself, recast stoneskin/blink, or are dead. In any of those situations, it's better for the person with the ability to cure to stay back and cure. And again, this is another reason people don't like Dncs at endgame.

3-2 years ago, the most stupidest reason if I remember correctly was that RDM give TP to the mob.(some people still use that false and stupid argument between), those people don't know that the TP is based primarly on the weapon delay(please check wiki for tp calculation).
Now people realised that enspells tier II(if added) will possibly extinguish this stupid and false argument of TP. Now they start talking about "AOE", and I saw other reasons that are more stupid than the 2 listed here. That AOE issue is actually a problem for any melee, not specificly to RDM or WHM.

Even if you are using a low delay weapon, you are still feeding the mob TP. With the Joyeuse, the iconic Rdm weapon, mobs gain 9tp per hit. And with a weak Dmg weapon like that, you won't be hurting the mob a lot while feeding it tons of TP. For the small amount of damage you will be doing, all that TP you're giving it will not be worth it. And once again, Dnc's have three Subtle Blow traits, and still aren't wanted to melee against larger mobs.

So AOE is dangerous for a "Red Mage". Hello? are we playing the same game? Because from the last news RDM had the highest survivability of the game..., I'm not even going to debate on the "rdm getting killed by AOE". Because it's just stupid and ridiculous. Simply because, if it's dangerous for a Red Mage, it's dangerous for any other job in this game, that mean's it's not even an argument to present against "rdm melee" debate.

Rdm's survival strength comes from it's ability to conserve, replenish and maintain it's own HP and MP. Two things which can not be done effectively when meleeing a mob with dangerous WS. If you have to spend MP over and over again to keep recasting Stoneskin because the mob is spamming WS because you are meleeing it for piddly crap dmg, you will burn through your MP quickly. Where melees have very little options as to how to engage the mob, Rdm does. And that's where the major difference comes in. Where a Melee *has* to be up close to a monster to be useful, a Rdm can stay back and avoid danger.

[Seibar]

the hatred for dnc comes out even in a whm|rdm thread >.<
we're pretty useless for now, but come on... we can dance!

[SenseiFF11]

It's not even about standing after the AoE, it's the fact that you waste MP on stuff that can be avoided for minimal damage. RDM's melee damage, unless upgraded to broken status, is not enough to justify the increased TP gain of the enemy and the MP spent curing HP/ailments off an RDM close ranging the mob. Take Odin for instance; would you rather have RDMs wasting MP curing themselves and using echo drops from an AoE that is avoidable (This is not the % HP move btw), or would you rather leave out the RDM's chunk of damage?

RDM waste mp on melee? The concept behind enspells is to make a lot of dmg with minimum MP cost.(Oh I know they need to upgraded) But RDM is a fighter-mage, it's not a "waste" of mp, they have refresh and with convert merits, they have almost infinite mp. Now for sure, if he have to spam cure on him and have hard time to save his own mp, just to melee, then yes there is a problem somewhere and there is something he should do.

You are talking about Odin and ect and saying it would be better for RDM to stand back. There is a time to melee, and time to not melee, RDM was meant to be a flexible job. If you meant that there is a time to melee and time to not melee, then I'm agree with you entirely.
But if you'r point is to try to proove that RDM melee is not good at anytime, then you maybe missunderstood the concept of RDM.
So yes I'm agree that there is a time to melee and there is a time to stand back.

[Ziero]

the hatred for dnc comes out even in a whm|rdm thread >.<
we're pretty useless for now, but come on... we can dance!

Actually I love Dncs, won't be a job I level but it's one I love being PT'd with. Having said that, daggers suck against big mobs and their curing being limited to party only is a kick in the balls. Fan and Saber dance are freaking awesome abilities though and I'd gladly trade all War Group2 merits to get something as good as just those two.

[Ziero]

RDM waste mp on melee? The concept behind enspells is to make a lot of dmg with minimum MP cost, and RDM is a fighter-mage, it's not a "waste" of mp, they have refresh and with convert merits, they have almost infinite mp.
My point is, if you got a real issue to present specificly to RDM only tell us. Don't bring issues that are actually an issue for every melee.
You are talking about Odin and ect and saying it would be better for RDM to stand back. There is a time to melee, and time to not melee, RDM was meant to be a flexible job. If you meant that there is a time to melee and time to not melee, then I'm agree with you entirely.
But if you'r point is to try to proove that RDM melee is not good at anytime, then you maybe missunderstood the concept of RDM.
So yes I'm agree that there is a time to melee and there is a time to not melee.

...actually most people in this thread agree that there are plenty of times Rdms can melee. But most Rdms say those times aren't enough. Because anything that's not an HNM or Merit PT obviously doesn't count as meleeing.

[Seibar]

Actually I love Dncs, won't be a job I level but it's one I love being PT'd with. Having said that, daggers suck against big mobs and their curing being limited to party only is a kick in the balls. Fan and Saber dance are freaking awesome abilities though and I'd gladly trade all War Group2 merits to get something as good as just those two.

lol ya i know, a B(+ or -) weapon really hurts our abilities. i dont get to swing often on thf due to tp spam, so i cant imagine going dnc to events.

as for rdm melee being increased/changed, maybe enhancing sword will become popular and sell again ^^ Bunes been lonely.

[Yugl]

You say "any melee boost they give them will not be enough to "fix" any problems they already had", but you can't even tell us what that "problem" is. I'll tell you the most important problems about RDM and WHM melee.
The first issue about RDM and WHM melee is the "buff cycle" as people call it, or in another word they are busy. That is the first issue. If we can't get agree on that part, we're not playing the same game. Conclusion, we need to lower the number of casting to help them.
Secondly it's the accuracy, like I said early, from that interview, we can expect an enhancement on the RDM attack skill. Those are the 2 main problems about the melee subject.
Some people have mentionned refreshga and hastega in the past for that reason.(They are busy). The goal by making beneficial status from striking is to lower their number of casting.

The main problem with WHM isn't really the buff cycle or the melee skill. The problem is that it lacks abilities/spells that make it a competitive healer with other mages. It cannot keep up MP as well as other healers and it cannot heal ailments as quickly as other healers. The two main competitors that come to mind are RDM and SCH. RDM just simply keeps its MP up much better than RDM. Enhancements such as Haste and Refresh, when paired with Convert, allow RDM to be a MP machine. SCH is capable of conserving MP through Traits and Abilities (Cut MP Cost, Sublimation, and AoE casts of ailment heals). WHM has no natural ability to keep its MP high. WHM needs a trait, ability, or spell that it can use naturally. RDMs don't need TP to convert or Refresh and SCH don't need TP to use its abilities. It simply needs a mechanism that it can use while playing its core-role (Healer). A trait that converts a percent of HP healed to MP would work. An ability that converts the next healing spell to a MP recover spell would work. A spell as simple as refresh would work. Whatever the case, it has to be something that WHM can use readily as a healer. It's simply too much to ask a WHM to melee for his MP back especially when most NMs and strategies are designed with WHM as a background role in mind. You may not like the fact that WHM and RDM are background roles, but if you look at their core-roles, you'll see it's obvious where they need to be when the battle starts.

[SenseiFF11]

Warning, long post:
Rdm's survival strength comes from it's ability to conserve, replenish and maintain it's own HP and MP. Two things which can not be done effectively when meleeing a mob with dangerous WS. If you have to spend MP over and over again to keep recasting Stoneskin because the mob is spamming WS because you are meleeing it for piddly crap dmg, you will burn through your MP quickly. Where melees have very little options as to how to engage the mob, Rdm does. And that's where the major difference comes in. Where a Melee *has* to be up close to a monster to be useful, a Rdm can stay back and avoid danger.

RDM survivability strenght is not only based on his ability to conserve mp at all. His survivability strenght come first from the fact that he can enhance himself(stoneskin, phalanx. If you do a lot of ballista, you'll realise that he got the strongest stoneskin and phalanx, because of the high enhancing magic). But not only stoneskin and phalanx, but all the others enhancing magic. But then you can have a lot of enhancing magic, does not mean you have a high survivability, especially if the monster is strong. The second thing that give high survivability to the RDM is the fact that he can enfeeb. It's simple as that, make the ennemy weaker, and make yourself stronger. It's all the RDM abilities that he give an high survivability. You can have impossible to gauge conserve MP in FFXI, it's not going to give you a high survivability.

[SenseiFF11]

The main problem with WHM isn't really the buff cycle or the melee skill. The problem is that it lacks abilities/spells that make it a competitive healer with other mages. It cannot keep up MP as well as other healers and it cannot heal ailments as quickly as other healers. The two main competitors that come to mind are RDM and SCH. RDM just simply keeps its MP up much better than RDM. Enhancements such as Haste and Refresh, when paired with Convert, allow RDM to be a MP machine. SCH is capable of conserving MP through Traits and Abilities (Cut MP Cost, Sublimation, and AoE casts of ailment heals). WHM has no natural ability to keep its MP high. WHM needs a trait, ability, or spell that it can use naturally. RDMs don't need TP to convert or Refresh and SCH don't need TP to use its abilities. It simply needs a mechanism that it can use while playing its core-role (Healer). A trait that converts a percent of HP healed to MP would work. An ability that converts the next healing spell to a MP recover spell would work. A spell as simple as refresh would work. Whatever the case, it has to be something that WHM can use readily as a healer. It's simply too much to ask a WHM to melee for his MP back especially when most NMs and strategies are designed with WHM as a background role in mind. You may not like the fact that WHM and RDM are background roles, but if you look at their core-roles, you'll see it's obvious where they need to be when the battle starts.

Sorry but I don't think WHM need something about spells or abilities to compet with other mages as meleeing. The only competition WHM had was against RDM simply because he could recover his mp faster. But now there is SCH and believe me WHM/SCH can do a lot.

[Yugl]

RDM survivability strenght is not only based on his ability to conserve mp at all. His survivability strenght come first from the fact that he can enhance himself(stoneskin, phalanx. If you do a lot of ballista, you'll realise that he got the strongest stoneskin and phalanx, because of the high enhancing magic). But not only stoneskin and phalanx, but all the others enhancing magic. But then you can have a lot of enhancing magic, does not mean you have a high survivability, especially if the monster is strong. The second thing that give high survivability to the RDM is the fact that he can enfeeb. It's simple as that, make the ennemy weaker, and make yourself stronger. It's all the RDM abilities that he give an high survivability. You can have impossible to gauge conserve MP in FFXI, it's not going to give you a high survivability.

It's still wasting MP and time using those enhancements/heals on itself when all of that could be avoided. If you use ~100 MP on yourself for every TP move that comes your way, after 5 AoEs you've unnecessarily burned ~500MP on yourself, MP that should have gone to keeping melees up who can do more damage than you. As great of a MP machines RDM is, it's not infinite MP. It has limitations. Furthermore, by meleeing you contribute to the TP accumulation of the enemy. Handing over 6TP+ for lousy sword damage isn't exactly the best method of approach. So you're probably thinking "Yeah I know RDM Damage is lousy now, but that's why we need to increase it". Wait why would RDM need melee potential? You'll probably respond "Because the dev team wanted to make RDM a hybrid melee". My response to that is, who cares what the Dev wants? They want lots of BS in the game and don't realize it just won't work out; meanwhile they shove aside useful projects such as instanced Dynamis or macro lines because it's too difficult to deal with. Just because they made the game, that doesn't mean they know how it functions. RDM is a support, but because of the abilities it gains as a support it is capable of performing other roles. This however does not suggest that it should gain buffs towards those other roles. Aside from access to swords and enspells, what abilities does RDM have that gears it towards the DD role? None.

Edit: WHM/SCH can't do nearly as much as a RDM can. It's better than before, but not nearly as good. Especially when you consider the fact that RDM has the same advantages as a WHM using SCH sub aside from mid-fight refresh/sublimation.

[SenseiFF11]

...actually most people in this thread agree that there are plenty of times Rdms can melee. But most Rdms say those times aren't enough. Because anything that's not an HNM or Merit PT obviously doesn't count as meleeing.

Yep agree. It's just that some people pretend that "no matter what SE does" it's not going to solve anything. When they don't even know what rdm and whm are going to get. For example people have been talking about "Regain". Is there any melee that would refuse to get "Regain"? I don't think so.

[Ahlah]

I've seen multiple instances of a single RDM keeping Elementals and worms slept the entire fight...protip: the resistance doesn't get that bad if you don't take 28 minutes to kill Ouryu because you're trying to use some shitty strategy involving Death Blossom and Rangers.

Maybe you should look into having better RDMs, if they can't mange to hold an Elemental by themselves in Ouryu Cometh, they probably can't even hit the damn Elemental to get TP for their awful Death Blossom.

Unless SE have nerfed the elementals, they typically start resisting sleep after 5th or 6th sleep. That's about 9 mins into the fight, unless you bring full BLM alliance I don't see how it's possible to kill Ouryu without having to kill any elementals.

If your alliance is capable of taking Ouryu down without having to kill any elementals. Using DB + skillchain will only make the fight even shorter. If your RDM can't handle elementals that have yet to develop sleep resistance while he/she is TPing on other mobs then obviously this strategy is not for you.

[rezn0r]

i can't tell what page of the thread i'm on anymore

[Day]

i can't tell what page of the thread i'm on anymore

Doesn't really matter does it?

[rezn0r]

good point

[Ahlah]

I've seen people try to use DB on Perytons and try to land black magic Sleep and it didn't work. So I'm not sure if the whole wiki blurb is correct or the aftermath just increases the 0% chance to 5%.

DB doesn't remove immunity, it increases the chance of landing spell. It's like trying to land elegy or slow on earth elementals, no amount of enfeebling gear or elemental seal will help. Cerberus DOES NOT resist elegy, it's just highly inconsistent to try to get it to land without elemental seal (will land every 2-4 attempts with above average gear). Ppl bring BRD/BLM to Cerb fight because it makes tank's life much easier to have elegy stuck on Cerb.

[Yugl]

DB doesn't remove immunity, it increases the chance of landing spell. It's like trying to land elegy or slow on earth elementals, no amount of enfeebling gear or elemental seal will help. Cerberus DOES NOT resist elegy, it's just highly inconsistent to try to get it to land without elemental seal (will land every 2-4 attempts with above average gear). Ppl bring BRD/BLM to Cerb fight because it makes tank's life much easier to have elegy stuck on Cerb.

Wait what?!

[Alistaire]

He doesn't mean "doesn't resist", he means "not immune"...but at this point in the thread it should be blatantly obvious to everyone else that he's an idiot so just stop responding, unless of course you're getting some lulz from this, and while there is a LOT of that to be had it's getting old on this subject.

[Ahlah]

Just because you don't understand a strategy doesn't mean it won't work. Like I said before, there is a reason why SE dev team ignore ppl who keep asking about AV. There is no way you can reason with ppl who are already blinded by their own belief.