RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Day]

I'm personally blinded by the light. Revved up like a deuce another runner in the night.

[Ziero]

lol ya i know, a B(+ or -) weapon really hurts our abilities. i dont get to swing often on thf due to tp spam, so i cant imagine going dnc to events.

as for rdm melee being increased/changed, maybe enhancing sword will become popular and sell again ^^ Bunes been lonely.

As a Thf myself, I understand the pain of my knife toting, flamboyant cousins.

RDM survivability strenght is not only based on his ability to conserve mp at all. His survivability strenght come first from the fact that he can enhance himself(stoneskin, phalanx. If you do a lot of ballista, you'll realise that he got the strongest stoneskin and phalanx, because of the high enhancing magic). But not only stoneskin and phalanx, but all the others enhancing magic. But then you can have a lot of enhancing magic, does not mean you have a high survivability, especially if the monster is strong. The second thing that give high survivability to the RDM is the fact that he can enfeeb. It's simple as that, make the ennemy weaker, and make yourself stronger. It's all the RDM abilities that he give an high survivability. You can have impossible to gauge conserve MP in FFXI, it's not going to give you a high survivability.

Sch get the same enhancing skill and access to the same spells, but Rdm can survive longer and better. Why? Sch doesn't get refresh and convert. A Rdm's life is it's MP, and when it can use the least MP to save the most HP, that MP they saved will keep them going far longer then any other class. It's not just their "enhancing" magics, it's the ability to continually and constantly pull MP out of their ass to keep their spells going and protect their HP.

Sorry but I don't think WHM need something about spells or abilities to compet with other mages as meleeing. The only competition WHM had was against RDM simply because he could recover his mp faster. But now there is SCH and believe me WHM/SCH can do a lot.

Rdm and Sch can do things a Whm can't even come close to touching as far as efficiancey is concerned. Though Regen III and Cure V are great spells a Whm needs more then that to become the dominant, undisputed king of healers again.

Yep agree. It's just that some people pretend that "no matter what SE does" it's not going to solve anything. When they don't even know what rdm and whm are going to get. For example people have been talking about "Regain". Is there any melee that would refuse to get "Regain"? I don't think so.

Actually people are saying no matter what SE gives to Whm and Rdm, unless it's completely and totally broken, there is no way they're going to melee things they can't already melee. There are lots of things they can do to change Rdm and Whm's current status, many of them being options that wouldn't totally throw things off balance. But enhancing their melee abilities is not a solution and is utterly pointless and unneeded in regards to "fixing" those two classes. While Rdm could get away with a totally pointless melee Fix, Whm actually needs a boost to keep it as wanted in a support role as Rdm and Sch.

[SenseiFF11]

Actually people are saying no matter what SE gives to Whm and Rdm, unless it's completely and totally broken, there is no way they're going to melee things they can't already melee. There are lots of things they can do to change Rdm and Whm's current status, many of them being options that wouldn't totally throw things off balance. But enhancing their melee abilities is not a solution and is utterly pointless and unneeded in regards to "fixing" those two classes. While Rdm could get away with a totally pointless melee Fix, Whm actually needs a boost to keep it as wanted in a support role as Rdm and Sch.

Exactly. Now I have some questions for you just to understand your comment better. The things you said they "can't melee", can you explain "why" they can't melee those "things"? Because there is a contradiction in your comment. You admit that you have no idea what SE is going to give to the RDM and WHM, but at the same time you are "sure" that they won't be able to melee the "things they can't already melee", how can you say that? I really don't know how, so please explain. Because what you said is not even logic.
Do you realise that they will "maybe" be able to melee those things after the update? If you are talking about dmg dealing, the point of the RDM and WHM update is not about DMG dealing, but bringing new beneficial effect to the front.
Every melee job have a limit on what they can melee efficiently, NIN tank or PLD tank for example are better depending on what monster you are fighting. So honestly I don't care if that update don't make RDM and WHM melee what they "can't already melee"(even though I doubt, it would be stupid if that update don't at least make them melee some mobs they can't melee), but why making a discussion on what they can't melee? What's the point of telling that to people? Any good discussion to make with that? Or maybe it's just fun to be always pessimism.

[Xno Kappa]

This thread, SMN threads, and Time/Date arguments are lame. Some of you are quite the entertainment though, lolDB@Ouryu.

[Izzy]

I'm personally blinded by the light. Revved up like a deuce another runner in the night.

I laughed harder than I should have

[The Blackrose]

http://z.about.com/d/pediatrics/1/0/F/N/crying_baby.jpg

Waaaaaah! Why is no one taking me seriously!!!

Fixed.

[SenseiFF11]

Anyone here tried Joyeuse/Justice? If yes how was it for you?

[Keria]

you get a lot of tp with haste build but nothing will make sword ws awesome for rdm/nin to be honest

it's pretty fun on pld though :Q_

[Berdysh]

Anyone here tried Joyeuse/Justice? If yes how was it for you?

It's great combination for farming Grah Chips in sea or Ro'Maeve Water in sky - you know, about the extent of what RDM should be meleeling.

And WHM doesn't need a fix of any kind. The job takes full advantage of /SCH and is a complete cure tank in terms of cure speed, potency and MP efficiency. Cure V is such a superior spell to IV, the barspells are stronger and both Shellra V and Devotion are things a Paladin shouldn't want to do without in a major fight. RDM and SCH are great jobs and RDM will always be the one you consider a 'must-have' to most everything, but WHM still does what it's supposed to better than any other job overall. Nothing wrong with that. /SCH really was to WHM what the Seigan/Hasso SAM update was to melee.

[Psepha]

Oh good lord, here it is again. Okay, seriously people, stop acting like /SCH is the solution to everything. It really, really isn't. As wonderful as the subjob is, and as wonderful as Sublimation and Light Arts may be, that's a completely moot point if the circumstances require you to sub something else. Which yeah, can happen. I regularly go to Limbus as /SMN to carby pull, for example. Say what you like about that, but that's the situation we have. And for a WHM/SMN, Sublimation is about as accessable as Hasso is to a DRK/NIN.

[Berdysh]

I'm a little confused. /SCH isn't the solution to everything - it is, however, the solution to far greater MP efficiency through use of Penury, and having Max MP Boost, Clear Mind I and II and Conserve MP all rolled into one SJ. It made the job... a lot better, at doing what it's... supposed to do. Just like /SAM made DRK, SAM, WAR and DRG a lot better (situationally) at doing... what they're supposed to do.

You sub /SMN sometimes to Carby pull, that's great. DRKs sub /NIN occasionally in AOE heavy situations or whenever /SAM isn't viable, yep. /SCH was still all the fix WHM needed, hence my saying so.

[Sunrider]

If /SCH is necessary to allow WHM to perform it's basic role(re: "what it's supposed to do"), doesn't that imply there is something wrong there?

I always thought a subjob's purpose should be to allow a job to does what it does and more, not just help it reach it's bare minimum.

[Berdysh]

/SCH isn't necessary for WHM to perform any of its roles, it only acted as a fix to a weakness: MP efficiency relative to RDMs (and SCHs, with the introduction of the job).

Whether an SJ should augment or add-to is an argument that ties more into the main topic of this thread. A WHM can sub /NIN and tank, or sub /DRK and stun stuff that doesn't have a resistance, just like a RDM can. It doesn't have the overall versatility of a RDM, nor should it, because it already does something very well - arguably better than any other job. I'm just saying, it's hardly the lame duck of the three aforementioned mage jobs. It's certainly more 'niche' than RDM or SCH, but when there are 20 or whatever jobs in the game, 'niche' is going to happen.

[Ziero]

Exactly. Now I have some questions for you just to understand your comment better. The things you said they "can't melee", can you explain "why" they can't melee those "things"? Because there is a contradiction in your comment. You admit that you have no idea what SE is going to give to the RDM and WHM, but at the same time you are "sure" that they won't be able to melee the "things they can't already melee", how can you say that? I really don't know how, so please explain. Because what you said is not even logic.

I've said it many times, they can't melee HNMs, pick-up TP burn mobs or mid level Exp pts. HNMs are too strong and the Rdm will have to focus completely on their melee set up, ignoring their magic set up, to even hit the thing, let alone hit for more then 0. And on top of that they'll be doing nothing but feeding the mob TP while standing in the line of fire. And they can't, or shouldn't rather, melee in PUG TP burns because the mob should die in 30 seconds or less. There's no point in a Rdm meleeing when it should be buffing, curing and if need be resting a tick or two. And mid level Exp pts are pretty much a mix of the two reasons where a Rdm will need to focus completely on meleeing while ignoring it's magic skills to have any form of efficiancy and no one is inviting the Rdm for it's piddly sword Dmg and crap fast blades.

But the vast majority of other situations Rdms and even Whms can melee things just fine. Campaign, Assaults, Besieged, Limbus, Salvage, lesser NMs, quests, some missions, farming, and soloing are all places a Rdm can melee, but to them it's just not enough. Because they can't melee anything and everything in the game as efficiantly as melee jobs while still buffing and supporting better then many mage jobs causes many Rdm melee to cry foul when the only problem is them.

Do you realise that they will "maybe" be able to melee those things after the update? If you are talking about dmg dealing, the point of the RDM and WHM update is not about DMG dealing, but bringing new beneficial effect to the front.

Both jobs would need major overhauls to welcomed to melee, for any reason, in the situations listed above.

Every melee job have a limit on what they can melee efficiently, NIN tank or PLD tank for example are better depending on what monster you are fighting. So honestly I don't care if that update don't make RDM and WHM melee what they "can't already melee"(even though I doubt, it would be stupid if that update don't at least make them melee some mobs they can't melee), but why making a discussion on what they can't melee? What's the point of telling that to people? Any good discussion to make with that? Or maybe it's just fun to be always pessimism.

You're right, there are plenty of mobs and situations Melees shouldn't melee. That's a generally accepted and well known aspect of this game. So why should Rdm be treated any different?

/SCH isn't necessary for WHM to perform any of its roles, it only acted as a fix to a weakness: MP efficiency relative to RDMs (and SCHs, with the introduction of the job).

Whether an SJ should augment or add-to is an argument that ties more into the main topic of this thread. A WHM can sub /NIN and tank, or sub /DRK and stun stuff that doesn't have a resistance, just like a RDM can. It doesn't have the overall versatility of a RDM, nor should it, because it already does something very well - arguably better than any other job. I'm just saying, it's hardly the lame duck of the three aforementioned mage jobs. It's certainly more 'niche' than RDM or SCH, but when there are 20 or whatever jobs in the game, 'niche' is going to happen.

While Sch is an incredible sub, Sch is an even more incredible main. While Whm may be loved for major events and big fights, for the smaller, faster situations, something this game is getting more and more of, it's just not as good as Rdm or Sch. While Cure V and Regen III are excellent MP efficiant spells, it just can't compete with a double powered, half MP Cure IV or a constantly and consistantly self replenishing MP pool. Hell at the very least make Divine Veil into it's own, short recast JA. Because that was one of the dumbest things SE has ever done in this game imo.

[Yugl]

/SCH isn't necessary for WHM to perform any of its roles, it only acted as a fix to a weakness: MP efficiency relative to RDMs (and SCHs, with the introduction of the job).

It's funny because if WHM were that superior healing tank you claim it is, then it wouldn't need a fix to make it competitive with other classes. You've just admitted that it had problems when pitted against other classes by making that assertion.

You claim SCH fixes this? SCH makes the problem worse. Before, WHM's only real competition was RDM, but the introduction of SCH made added a second competitor. SCH and RDM are both still superior to WHM as far as MP regaining is concerned. As I've pointed out earlier, SCH uses JAs and traits to replenish its HP. RDM uses Refresh and Convert. WHM on its own as what? Oh right sublimation; a sublimation that is inferior to SCH's sublimation with the introduction of merits/AF/Relic. Cure V and Regen III are nice, but they don't solve the problem. If Cure V and Regen II had that much of an impact, there wouldn't be a problem to begin with. SCH wouldn't be needed to fix WHM to begin with. There is a problem and its still present.

In short:

RDM: Refresh + Convert
SCH: Penury, Accession, Rapture, and Enhanced Sublimation
WHM: Basic Sublimation (Only with WHM support)

Whether an SJ should augment or add-to is an argument that ties more into the main topic of this thread. A WHM can sub /NIN and tank, or sub /DRK and stun stuff that doesn't have a resistance, just like a RDM can. It doesn't have the overall versatility of a RDM, nor should it, because it already does something very well - arguably better than any other job. I'm just saying, it's hardly the lame duck of the three aforementioned mage jobs. It's certainly more 'niche' than RDM or SCH, but when there are 20 or whatever jobs in the game, 'niche' is going to happen.

So you're telling me you'll pick a WHM over RDM and SCH? If so you're foolish. If not you're just proving our point.

Does anyone else notice that all these "fixes" using subs (Aka SAM and SCH) always power up the class to top tier in their league? SAMs are pretty much top DD as of now with the introduction of Hasso. SCH is the one of the best healers now with its line of JAs and Sublimation. That's not to say other classes don't benefit, but they don't benefit as much as the class that received the fix to begin with.

[The Blackrose]

I always thought a subjob's purpose should be to allow a job to does what it does and more, not just help it reach it's bare minimum.

Then you don't know why SCH are forced to sub /WHM and /RDM.

I'll give you a hint: we don't have something very vital to damage prevention as a native spell.

Also, WHMs are superior healers than us. We just have the opportunity to be more MP-efficient healers.

[Sunrider]

Then you don't know why SCH are forced to sub /WHM and /RDM.

I'll give you a hint: we don't have something very vital to damage prevention as a native spell.

No, I've held the same concerns for SCH's subjob pigeonhole as well. I just figured that since we were talking about WHM...

Anywho, the devs need to stop fucking about and give SCH native Blink and Stoneskin. That way Avesta can SCH/NIN and go solo Jesus Christ or something... finally take the heat off RDM.

[LD]

No, I've held the same concerns for SCH's subjob pigeonhole as well. I just figured that since we were talking about WHM..

Actually, we were talking about what you thought a subjob was for. Incidentally, I'll throw in /NIN for MNK.

[Melios]

...actually most people in this thread agree that there are plenty of times Rdms can melee. But most Rdms say those times aren't enough. Because anything that's not an HNM or Merit PT obviously doesn't count as meleeing.

That's the narrow-minded attitude that keeps materializing around here, unfortunately.

[SenseiFF11]

you get a lot of tp with haste build but nothing will make sword ws awesome for rdm/nin to be honest

it's pretty fun on pld though :Q_

Oh ya that's true. Well I guess I'll try it for dot with enspells, any PLD would love to have enspells with that ehXD. But ya PLD/NIN with homam gears for haste, especially homam body for triple attack will rock.(Sadly RDM can't equip that!!XD) For the high dmg ws's I think it's not the concept of rdm anyway so I don't mind too muchXD, I'll try those swords for the dot. Going to kill JoJ this friday!