RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[SenseiFF11]

For the WHM/SCH I'm agree that it's not always the best sub, but the only reason I saw mentionned on this thread to sub SMN is only for pulling. /SCH grant you access to a lot more. I'm agree that /SCH is not always the best sub and will vary depending of the situation, but most of the times it is. That subjob for WHM's save a lot of mp, and they don't have to "focus" on having a refresher in a party anymore to get their mp. /SCH you cast faster, wich is very important when you need to cure-bomb, and you save a lot of mp. /SCH for WHM will be hard to beat.
I'm myself a RDM not a WHM, but in dynamis I prefer having my main WHM subbing SCH, it make me less busy ehXD.

[Berdysh]

It's funny because if WHM were that superior healing tank you claim it is, then it wouldn't need a fix to make it competitive with other classes. You've just admitted that it had problems when pitted against other classes by making that assertion.

You claim SCH fixes this? SCH makes the problem worse. Before, WHM's only real competition was RDM, but the introduction of SCH made added a second competitor. SCH and RDM are both still superior to WHM as far as MP regaining is concerned. As I've pointed out earlier, SCH uses JAs and traits to replenish its HP. RDM uses Refresh and Convert. WHM on its own as what? Oh right sublimation; a sublimation that is inferior to SCH's sublimation with the introduction of merits/AF/Relic. Cure V and Regen III are nice, but they don't solve the problem. If Cure V and Regen II had that much of an impact, there wouldn't be a problem to begin with. SCH wouldn't be needed to fix WHM to begin with. There is a problem and its still present.

In short:

RDM: Refresh + Convert
SCH: Penury, Accession, Rapture, and Enhanced Sublimation
WHM: Basic Sublimation (Only with WHM support)



So you're telling me you'll pick a WHM over RDM and SCH? If so you're foolish. If not you're just proving our point.

Does anyone else notice that all these "fixes" using subs (Aka SAM and SCH) always power up the class to top tier in their league? SAMs are pretty much top DD as of now with the introduction of Hasso. SCH is the one of the best healers now with its line of JAs and Sublimation. That's not to say other classes don't benefit, but they don't benefit as much as the class that received the fix to begin with.

Larger fights where Cure V beats the heck out of Cure IV are still a very large part of this game. WHM is perfectly tuned for functioning in these higher-end fights and it's why you almost always see one or two of them in the tank party. They may not have as many charges on the strategems as SCH, but they still have Penury, Haste, better gear choices and more efficient base cures. So, what's wrong with the job here? Nothing. It does what it's supposed to do, and I certainly disagree that either RDM or SCH do it better. Your tanks in a major fight are still best supported by a RDM - WHM tandem. SCH is king when it comes to something like DD party healer in Einherjar, because of Accession + Erase. You see jobs like PUP, DNC, BST and the like admonished because, while they have uses in the game, they have no real spot in the endgame. WHM, SCH and RDM all have rock-solid spots in endgame.

And even in smaller stuff, a well-played, well-geared WHM/SCH can manage a double Bard /SAM party just about as well as a RDM now. You're hardly gimping the party if the WHM is any good.

So.... what's wrong with the job again? It's still a better main healer during an event than Scholar, and a better pure tank healer than RDM. That gives it a role. RDM and SCH can stand-alone far better in things like Salvage or Nyzul Isle, and both jobs have more overall versatility. This doesn't make WHM a broken job, because a proper broken job has no defined role, period.

Also, SAM isn't really a better DD than WAR. It's situational - in a lot of situations, like Einherjar Tier III, the WAR/SAM usually comes out the winner. In merits, it's mostly a wash that comes down to gear. I'm not sure why you would rate one higher than the other overall.

[Yugl]

Larger fights where Cure V beats the heck out of Cure IV are still a very large part of this game. WHM is perfectly tuned for functioning in these higher-end fights and it's why you almost always see one or two of them in the tank party. They may not have as many charges on the strategems as SCH, but they still have Penury, Haste, better gear choices and more efficient base cures.

If it's the superior healing tank as was suggested earlier, I would expect WHM to be top tier in its league for more than HNM fights. Even SMN has a role at many HNM fights; do you think SMN is fine the way it is? HNMs are a limited aspect of the game and while WHM may prevail when it comes to healing for HNMs, it does not come out on top for other EG, merit, or even mission related events.

So, what's wrong with the job here?

In a competition between WHM,RDM, and SCH for most aspects of the game, RDM and SCH come out on top. That's the problem; and really, what other classes are there for the healing role? SMN and BLU maybe? Is that what you call a superior healer? A class that overall is just above SMN and BLU? Again, I'm not saying your point about HNMs is invalid, but I am pointing out that it's a limited part of the game.

Nothing. It does what it's supposed to do, and I certainly disagree that either RDM or SCH do it better.

It does what it's supposed to do, but does it do it as efficiently as RDM or SCH? For any non-HNM related activity, WHM is generally behind RDM and SCH. Why is this a problem? WHM only heals. RDM is a support role through Enhancements/Enfeebles (mostly enfeebles); yet, it out performs WHM, a class whose sole role is to heal. SCH has access to nukes and is only limited by the timer on its JAs. Why should a class whose only role is to heal, fall behind that of a support role such as RDM? Why is it falling behind SCH, which has access to damn good nukes? It's unreasonable.

And even in smaller stuff, a well-played, well-geared WHM/SCH can manage a double Bard /SAM party just about as well as a RDM now. You're hardly gimping the party if the WHM is any good.

I'm not looking at this from a "Can WHM perform its role" view, I'm looking at it from a "Can WHM perform its role better than (Class here)" view. I don't know about you, but I find RDM to be must more reliable and in a merit situation.

So.... what's wrong with the job again? It's still a better main healer during an event than Scholar, and a better pure tank healer than RDM. That gives it a role. RDM and SCH can stand-alone far better in things like Salvage or Nyzul Isle, and both jobs have more overall versatility. This doesn't make WHM a broken job, because a proper broken job has no defined role, period.

You're right, a broken class it one without a defined role. WHM isn't in a critical situation like BST,PUP, and DNC. However, I think it should receive buffs to make it the undisputed best healer within the game since that's the only role it can serve. It's not that noticeable since healers aren't as easy to pick up as DDs, but it's still an issue I see with the game.

Also, SAM isn't really a better DD than WAR. It's situational - in a lot of situations, like Einherjar Tier III, the WAR/SAM usually comes out the winner. In merits, it's mostly a wash that comes down to gear. I'm not sure why you would rate one higher than the other overall.

Can't really talk about when both are fully geared since I've only PTed with a Relic G Katana SAM, not a Relic G Axe WAR. It's debatable, but all things considered, I find SAM to be better of the two.

[arshesney]

A Scholar might shine in low man situations, but it is far from comparable to a WHM on HNMs, dynamis or einherjiar.
Cure recast merits + fastcast from Light Arts + haste gear (and for WHM is really easy to cap haste gear) allow to cast spells non-stop. Barspell merits, blessed briault and shellra V makes tanks happy. Haste and Flash. Devotion.
Except Blindna and Erase, by the time SCH's animations are done, I've been able to cure statuses from all party members.
Sublimation is nice, but being Refreshed is still better, with 8-11 mp/tick you gotta try hard to run out of mp.

Unless the jobs gets a major overhaul theres no way you can fit in inventory gear to not suck at melee and gear to not suck at what your main role has to be.
Hell, a Teleport-Oldunn would benefit WHM as an update more than any melee side adjustment.

[The Blackrose]

Except Blindna and Erase, by the time SCH's animations are done, I've been able to cure statuses from all party members.

This is the only part of your post I will take exception to. For starters, de facto sub of a Scholar is Red Mage, which gives FC2 right off the bat. Arts gives an additional -10% off recast.

Furthermore, we're talking about status heals here. Recast is already a mere pittance. And if you're looking to factor in animations, the smart ones are already bypassing animations with equipment swaps (refer to Kaeko's blog).

Testing is also being done to see whether or not with the introduction of the Relic head, combined with the AF feet, if casting time for cure/-na series is of the same speed as a White Mage (furthermore, these pieces also carry Fast Cast components).

And even then, we have not turned into the issue of 10 minute Divine Veil vs. 1 minute Accession (especially if a SCH is subbing White Mage or sitting in Addendum: White all day). Also, SCH has access to every -na in the book. WHMs do not hold kingship over status removal at this moment, and even if they do it is by a very tiny margin (something I believe that WHMs should exceed in, on a personal note).

[LD]

Sublimation is nice, but being Refreshed is still better, with 8-11 mp/tick you gotta try hard to run out of mp.

I take exception to this, since the Refresh effect is the only MP recovery effect that doesn't stack with Sublimation, and that only provides 3/tick. Being Refreshed is certainly simpler, you don't have to fiddle around with a JA, but Sublimation is at least more flexible. With the addition of a 2nd Sublimation piece, it's also much more efficient.

[Charismatic]

I don't know about that LD, I still think Refresh is better since you don't have to go 30sec without being able to gain any MP and you don't have to worry so much about keeping your stoneskin up at all times with sublimation eating away at it (if you're in a situation where you may get a chance to rest it's that much more imporant)

[Kaeko]

I think someone briefly tested AF2 hat and they can't hit the final cure speed tier at 35%. It's like 15% /RDM sub, 10% arts bonus, 2.5% AF1 feet, 2.5% AF2 head. That'll get you to 30% and you're 5 short. Only things you can add at this point are Warlock's Mantle and Loquacious Earring, both still won't get you to hit the tier.

In short, SCH can only cast at the "17% tier", which is like 2.1 seconds to cast, while WHM can hit the "35% tier" easily even without /RDM or /SCH via merits and/or cure clogs. This casts at around 1.6 seconds, so a WHM with this correctly geared casts 0.4 seconds faster than SCH on Cure 3 through 5. RDM hits this 1.6 seconds tier as well, so it's the same as WHM.

******

My take on this SCH vs. RDM vs. WHM cure thing is that you have to anchor your backline with a haster. No one in their right mind sets up a backline with the SCH first - someone has to haste. Once you get this haster, though, SCH is the most MP efficient by far because of arts bonus and Penury spammage. It still casts pretty damn fast too.

If you're fighting hoards of weaker things and have a RDM already (most groups do I would think), you definitely want a SCH over RDM. It's just plain more efficient due to extremely strong AoE buffs. It's when you fight strong mobs, especially involving magic damage, that you really want a WHM. Shell V and Barspell merits are extremely potent. The issue here is nowadays, the number of situations where you fight hoards of weak things far outweighs the number of situations where you fight big NM types that deal extremely damage.

Other things like curaga outside party, AoE ~na spells, and general utility via AoE enfeebles and helices keep SCH fairly useful in situations outside purely curing. I would mention one huge thing WHM has going for it that people don't mention a lot is Repose. That spell is beyond broken - it's land rate is retardedly high and if you get a WHM with capped Divine spell via gear and possibly merits, plus full MACC gear from sets like Valkyries, I'm almost positive you can get a high land rate on things like Tiamat without ES.

[LD]

I don't know about that LD, I still think Refresh is better since you don't have to go 30sec without being able to gain any MP and you don't have to worry so much about keeping your stoneskin up at all times with sublimation eating away at it (if you're in a situation where you may get a chance to rest it's that much more imporant)

More complicated doesn't necessarily mean less efficient. First and foremost, if there's a RDM in your PT, he no longer has to worry about you, freeing up a spot in any rotation he may have. To be honest, though I appreciate having one around, I never need a BRD or COR to do my job (though I rarely have one, so that's a bit moot). Sublimation MP is stored, so in situations where you frequently go through stages where you drain very little MP and then a larger amount (healing with the occasional nuke session, for example), you can use it strategically, instead of getting to full MP with 'fresh on and losing a few ticks (not to mention storing it beforehand). Also, Sublimation HP drain can be mitigated with more than just SS; Regen 1 & 2 can be used as a substitute when you don't have time for the long cast time for the former buff. You can't rest that way, but I find I rarely rest anyway. Any time I would, I'd have enough time to cast SS. The 30 second delay is negligible, especially with merits and both enhancement pieces, but even without, the greater base amount nearly makes up for it, since you wont always be getting Refresh re-applied right after it wears. 'Course, the only time I activate sub without at least one enhancement piece is with Ixion Cloak, so maybe that doesn't apply to everyone.

[Yugl]

Since you have to keep SS up just to heal, you're already removing some of the defense you get with RDM sub (Just SS and Blink mostly). With Refresh you get the MP back gradually instead of within an instance. This difference in effect is important when you''re scrounging for every little bit of MP you can get. There are some instances where our RDM will barely have enough MP for cure, but at least he has the MP to do so. With sublimation you would have to click it off (Essentially stopping the MP regen) and hope you have enough MP recovered.

[LD]

If losing SS is so significant that Sub eating away at it is an issue, I think you have bigger problems. In any case, you lost me at "scrounging for every little bit of MP you can get." At that point, even if my Sub weren't full, the RDM would be in a similar situation and would start prioritizing, making the point moot.

[Yugl]

I was referring to situations where getting that extra tick is just enough for the next cure that saves your tank. It's doesn't apply so much to Merits as it does to other events (Splitting Heirs comes to mind). When you have refresh on, the MP regen is in play where are with Sublimation you have to wait for the MP to build up first. For example, if a RDM and a SCH are both at 43 MP and just used Refresh/Sublimation respectively, the RDM would be able to access Cure III faster since its MP recovers gradually, but the SCH would need to wait/activate Sublimation to recover MP. So I guess the point is that RDM can gain the bare minimum/cast faster than a SCH would.

[LD]

If that were the case, I'd cast anyway, because Light arts makes Cure 3 cost 42 MP. -_- Failing that, if I absolutely had to, I'd crack off Penury, a half-second delay isn't going to do much more than human error. In any case, your hypothetical situation is highly flawed; First of all, Refresh costs 40 MP, meaning if you started at 43, you be taken down to 3 and if you started at 83, why would you cast refresh if you desperately needed to use Cure 3?

[SenseiFF11]

Oh yes it's true that if we compare refresh to sublimation, for refresh you gain mp gradually,while sublimation you need to wait. My RDM stoneskin can easily get 350HP with stoneskin. WHM can get between 250-320HP. That will be way enough to get the mp from sublimation till it wear. The way people talk looks like WHM need to spam stoneskin in order to keep sublimation, that is false. The maximum they'll have to cast it is maybe 2 times(That happen rarely, only when the stoneskin break cause of an attack). Sublimation is 25% of your max HP, if we say that WHM stoneskin is between 250-320HP, that means their max HP should be 1000-1280hp, that is way enough for a WHM hp!, they rarely get that much hp.

And not to forget that /SCH actually make you save mp when you cure. So yes refresh is "constant mp recovering", but /sch is completely different, you only recover your mp "within an instance" , but you save mp when you cast(-10% recast time, casting time and mp cost).
And please, the "keeping stoneskin up, in order to cure" is not an issue at all!. Most WHM will need only one stoneskin before sublimation wear, maybe 2 but that's it. If there is an issue about sublimation, it's certainly not stoneskin!

[Charismatic]

Sensei, did you forget that it's possible to be /SCH and have someone cast refresh on you?
Jesus Christ.

Store up MP for sublimation before the encounter, use it when needed and then get the RDM to refresh you from then on. Best of both worlds.

[SenseiFF11]

Sensei, did you forget that it's possible to be /SCH and have someone cast refresh on you?
Jesus Christ.

Store up MP for sublimation before the encounter, use it when needed and then get the RDM to refresh you from then on. Best of both worlds.

Yes, that is true Charismatic, you can get refreshed by a RDM if your sublimation is not activated. I said in others post here that sublimation have a downside sometimes, that means the person subbing SCH will sometimes need help on refresh. But most of the time WHM/SCH will be ok. So yes I know that you can get refreshed even /SCH...

The only problem with what you mentionned is while my refresh is on you, your sublimation will be off.
When my refresh will wear off, you'll need to do something: 1) Or you ask me another refresh,
2) or you "start" recovering mp from sublimation, means you need to wait till sublimation wear to get mp again.
And that means, hopefully you'r mp is not too low, because you just finished a cure cycle, and you are waiting for sublimation to wear off before getting some mp again.
I think that you'r plan is good, but somewhat redundant. But it's still the "best of the 2 world" like you said XD. I'm just happy of those WHM subbing SCH really, it make me less busy XD.

[Yugl]

If that were the case, I'd cast anyway, because Light arts makes Cure 3 cost 42 MP. -_- Failing that, if I absolutely had to, I'd crack off Penury, a half-second delay isn't going to do much more than human error. In any case, your hypothetical situation is highly flawed; First of all, Refresh costs 40 MP, meaning if you started at 43, you be taken down to 3 and if you started at 83, why would you cast refresh if you desperately needed to use Cure 3?

The cure III wasn't needed at the moment Refresh was casted. It would be one of those "oh shit" moments where suddenly you need to hit a Cure (Doesn't even have to be Cure IV). You're right about the MP cost difference with Light Arts (I wasn't paying attention to that). It just seems that in situations where it's a close call, having a gradual form of refresh allows you to make last second moves.

[LD]

The cure III wasn't needed at the moment Refresh was casted.

If you're gunna pull that bullshit, then I have no choice but to ask 'How do you know when Sub was initiated?' or just flat out say 'Sub was going for more than 30 seconds before you needed it and you now have more than just the 3 MP you needed.' Are you done now?

[Yugl]

If you're gunna pull that bullshit, then I have no choice but to ask 'How do you know when Sub was initiated?' or just flat out say 'Sub was going for more than 30 seconds before you needed it and you now have more than just the 3 MP you needed.' Are you done now?

Sublimation + Refresh used => Shoulder Charge. Some scenario to that effect. Any case where you're working on your last bit of MP, the 30sec does matter since if you're using it every few seconds to get back MP, you're restarting that 30sec recast. It's negligible in cases where the full duration or even (1/4) duration of Sublimation can take place, but if the MP is needed constantly, it's not as reliable as refresh.

[LD]

So in a situation that you created, Sublimation is less effective. Wow, you got me.


Oh hey, by the way, I'M BEING SARCASTIC.
Now I'm being sardonic.
Now I'm being facetious.