RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Septimus]

I would mention one huge thing WHM has going for it that people don't mention a lot is Repose. That spell is beyond broken - it's land rate is retardedly high and if you get a WHM with capped Divine spell via gear and possibly merits, plus full MACC gear from sets like Valkyries, I'm almost positive you can get a high land rate on things like Tiamat without ES.

Thank you for saying this, I want to make out with the guy that made Repose. (And I say this often during LS events when I am sleeping shit left and right with my second character WHM.) This spell is ridiculously amazing, my accuracy on the spell was faily consisten with sleeping mobs in Dynamis when I had 140 skill. Not to mention that since it is light-based it works for mobs that are annoying to hard to impossible to sleep with dark-based spalls like bats, undead, or hecteyes.

Uhhh. I mean, this spell is terrible. They should change Repose to Repose II, then make Repose, Reposga, and Reposga II. But even then it would still be terrible. Yeah, terrible, just like Paladin.

[LD]

Fur Stoval, I'd like to thank you for the re-rail. Secondly, it's very sad how few WHMs actually try to make use of Repose, they expect RDMs and BLMs to do everything.


Despite it's supposed weakness compared to RDM & SCH overall, WHM is actually one of the better balanced jobs; It can can do reasonably well in merit (/SCH, Haste) and it always has a place in end game (Repose, Cure 5, R3). To find what WHM needs to compete, one needs to look at what makes RDM & SCH more appealing as healers.

IMO, RDM's real standout quality isn't Refresh, but Convert (yes, who knew?) The instant-MP generation coupled with the relative ease of refilling your HP allows a RDM to keep a stredy amount of MP available. This probably has the simplest solution: Make Devotion self-target. A self-targeting Devotion with Sublimation would go a long way to help with WHM's endurance; it would still technically be weaker and more difficult to use than Convert, but since both can be absorbed by SS, you could maintain a decent amount of MP at less personal risk.

As for SCH, its many buffs are what separate it from WHM (also, its ability to nuke well, but improving Banish & Holy is a story for another day). WHM's standout buffs are obviously Shell 5 and the Bar- series, but that really only applies to the magical side of defense, and since boosting the physical defense stat isn't exactly a world-beater, Protect isn't going to do much on the high attack/high base damage monsters one tends to face. First solution is to enhance Protect, either by adding a physical damage resist (ala Sentinel) or fixing the defense stat. I feel enhancing Protect would help WHM gain ground in low-man situations as well as solidify their position on HNM, but WHM's buffing ability should go farther than that.

I expect that if they ever add Reflect (has had an effect for at least 3 years), WHM would get it, completely solidifying their place as magical buffers, but I think an AOE physical defense buff is what WHM needs in the current climate. if we just give WHM phalanxga or SSga, that would take away from SCH's niche, so maybe something...that increases the proc rate of all of a character's defensive skills by a significant amount? Sure, PLD would be even more broken, but NIN could actually depend on Parrying & Evasion more, and the DD could do better in low man stuff as well as the more difficult mobs.


RDM only needs what they're probably getting, new en-spells. Job is fine, blah.


I believe RDM, WHM, and SCH should all get Might from FF9 (think Brave, from FFT, but I prefer to pick one from the non-Ivalice continuum.) It would boost att by around 50 when it's first learned and have a cap of 100 (like SS's cap, it wouldn't be THAT hard to reach.) It would give RDM a new buff to use on PT members and allow them to melee better (if that's how they choose to live their lives), it would allow WHM to do the same and ensure that both WHM & RDM have the same number of single-target offensive buffs that can be used on PT members (e.g. Haste), and SCH would have an offensive buff to -ga besides just the en-spell line (so we don't have to keep pining over Haste....probably won't be as broken).

[Septimus]

RDM only needs what they're probably getting, new en-spells. Job is fine, blah.


I believe RDM, WHM, and SCH should all get Might from FF9 (think Brave, from FFT, but I prefer to pick one from the non-Ivalice continuum.) It would boost att by around 50 when it's first learned and have a cap of 100 (like SS's cap, it wouldn't be THAT hard to reach.) It would give RDM a new buff to use on PT members and allow them to melee better (if that's how they choose to live their lives), it would allow WHM to do the same and ensure that both WHM & RDM have the same number of single-target offensive buffs that can be used on PT members (e.g. Haste), and SCH would have an offensive buff to -ga besides just the en-spell line (so we don't have to keep pining over Haste....probably won't be as broken).

Another spell that melees are going to want me to cast on all of them is not going to help RDMs melee. (Regain or Might) One of the biggest obstacles to RDM melee (besides lack of melee skill, attack, accuracy, decent gear such as Homam/Enkidu, and needing to be able to have casting stats to land enfeebles on enemies) is the fact that RDM's spend almost all of their time casting on the party. Once you are done casting Haste and Refesh on the party, it is pretty much time to start the cycle all over again. Throwing in any new spells, no matter how good they are, will just make everything worse. If they really want RDMs to have front-line time, they would need to give RDMs Hastga and Refreshga (and any new buff to be single-target or AoE) so the RDM would actually be able to get a hit or two in on the mob because our buff durations are so damn short.

And I would love the crap out of tier 2 en-spells if they are Kam'lanaut-strength. (Oooo, 70-80 extra damage a hit, you make me feel like a real melee!) But they would have to cap how many times a round that they would proc to prevent kraken abuse, because we know that people would whine.

[LD]

Another spell that melees are going to want me to cast on all of them is not going to help RDMs melee.

I didn't say it would, I said it would be another PT buff AND improve their melee, as in two separate events that will never overlap.

[Yugl]

If they really want RDMs to have front-line time, they would need to give RDMs Hastga and Refreshga (and any new buff to be single-target or AoE) so the RDM would actually be able to get a hit or two in on the mob because our buff durations are so damn short.

Too bad RDM always gets the single target version of any -aga WHM and BLM have. Increase the duration and problem solved.

As for SCH, its many buffs are what separate it from WHM (also, its ability to nuke well, but improving Banish & Holy is a story for another day). WHM's standout buffs are obviously Shell 5 and the Bar- series, but that really only applies to the magical side of defense, and since boosting the physical defense stat isn't exactly a world-beater, Protect isn't going to do much on the high attack/high base damage monsters one tends to face. First solution is to enhance Protect, either by adding a physical damage resist (ala Sentinel) or fixing the defense stat. I feel enhancing Protect would help WHM gain ground in low-man situations as well as solidify their position on HNM, but WHM's buffing ability should go farther than that.

I don't choose SCH over WHM for events primarily because of AoE Phalanx or SS. The real kicker is its self-MP restoration (Already pointed out with RDM) and it's AoE ailment healing capabilities. WHM has to get a mythic weapon/waste Divine Seal just to do what SCH does with one JA? That's ridiculous.

Boosting protect would improve RDM and SCH's protect as well, so I doubt it would do much to put WHM on a more competitive level with those two than it is now. Just give them another MP restore technique and allow them to use Divine Veal every 30sec on its own timer. Problem solved.

[SenseiFF11]

Another spell that melees are going to want me to cast on all of them is not going to help RDMs melee. (Regain or Might) One of the biggest obstacles to RDM melee (besides lack of melee skill, attack, accuracy, decent gear such as Homam/Enkidu, and needing to be able to have casting stats to land enfeebles on enemies) is the fact that RDM's spend almost all of their time casting on the party. Once you are done casting Haste and Refesh on the party, it is pretty much time to start the cycle all over again. Throwing in any new spells, no matter how good they are, will just make everything worse. If they really want RDMs to have front-line time, they would need to give RDMs Hastga and Refreshga (and any new buff to be single-target or AoE) so the RDM would actually be able to get a hit or two in on the mob because our buff durations are so damn short.

And I would love the crap out of tier 2 en-spells if they are Kam'lanaut-strength. (Oooo, 70-80 extra damage a hit, you make me feel like a real melee!) But they would have to cap how many times a round that they would proc to prevent kraken abuse, because we know that people would whine.

Yep, it's the cycle buff that will kill rdm and whm melee. Or they give a hastega and refreshga or they will have to be available from "striking" the ennemy. Those are the 2 real choices. But from that interview it will be available from striking, and imo it's the best choice. hastega and refreshga will just cost more mp.(Check the smn mp cost) And I smell something about an increase in the RDM sword skills.(If based on the interview still, not my "personal" view, or personal wish). I think it's better to give to RDM and WHM a JA that can make refresh and haste available on striking when they want. It will have the same effect as hastega and refreshga with the benefit of costing less mp(the mp for one casting). Because believe me, if they do hastega and refreshga spell, it will cost way more mp than it is now, near the hundreds mp, and I don't want that, no thanks. And I doubt any RDM or WHM want that.
As for the possible new enhancing magic that they can add for RDM and WHM, they should make those spells "self-casting", but possible to give them to other party members when striking the ennemy with that JA I mentionned early.
Same like blue mage support spells are self-casting, but they can give it to any party member with diffusion.
In other words, if they make refreshga and hastega, it's not going to be "mp efficient", I prefer them to make it available on striking like they said in that interview.

For the enspells dmg, I'm sure that even if it's 70-80dmg, I doubt they will "crack" how many times it proc, honestly RDM deserve those spells. If they want to show how RDM is efficient with the "dot dmg" on melee, they need to give us decent-strong enspells and not adding a little nerf on that. And I really want a slap in the face of those people that keep saying "RDM dmg bite".
Imagine an enspell of a base DMG of 70-80(or 50-60), but that have a chance to deal more dmg depending of the physical dmg you deal.
That means let's say that the base dmg is 70-80(or any base dmg, not important), but that can keep going higher based on your physical dmg.(A % of your physical dmg). So ya if you critical hit a physical dmg, you can see a big increase in your enspells dmg. In other words, farther your sword enter inside the target flesh, and more dmg it take from your enspell;P. OMG I wish I was working for the Development Team!
May SE hear this prayer, amen! (lol)

[LD]

Boosting protect would improve RDM and SCH's protect as well, so I doubt it would do much to put WHM on a more competitive level with those two than it is now.

Prot 5.


WHM is able to use Sublimation too, so I don't see that as a divergence. I've never been in a tanking PT just to AOE status heals, I was put there for SS, Phalanx, and maybe Aquaveil. I'm not going to diminish the need to make Divine Veil easier to use, but even when half the mages in my alliance aren't dumping Silena on the tanks, making what you call my selling point nearly irrelevant, only a handful of mobs spam statuses that often anyway.

[Ophannus]

Too bad RDM always gets the single target version of any -aga WHM and BLM have. Increase the duration and problem solved.

Diaga.

[Yugl]

Prot 5.
WHM is able to use Sublimation too, so I don't see that as a divergence.

Pro 5 is a joke. SCH Sublimation with Relic + AF > WHM Sublimation.

I've never been in a tanking PT just to AOE status heals, I was put there for SS, Phalanx, and maybe Aquaveil. I'm not going to diminish the need to make Divine Veil easier to use, but even when half the mages in my alliance aren't dumping Silena on the tanks, making what you call my selling point nearly irrelevant, only a handful of mobs spam statuses that often anyway.

That's just a difference in playing style/events then. I refer to Limbus/Nyzul/Salvage/Einherjar since that's where SCH outshines WHM the most.

@Ophannus

I said they get the single target versions of -aga spells WHM and BLMs have access to. Though it could mean Refreshaga is an option. I Just see Diaga as some freaky exception.

[LD]

Pro 5 is a joke. SCH Sublimation with Relic + AF > WHM Sublimation.


That's just a difference in playing style/events then. I refer to Limbus/Nyzul/Salvage/Einherjar since that's where SCH outshines WHM the most.

If we're speaking of a scenario where Protect is being enhanced, then it stands to reason that Prot 5's current inferiority is irrelevant. It also stands to reason that if the series got any enhancements, the last in the series would get the most. To put it in simple terms, 5 > 4.

As I said, Sublimation, in and of itself, is NOT where SCH & WHM differ. Whether SCH is able to improve their's doesn't matter, because WHM then still has access to self-MP regeneration, which you implied it was lacking.

Narrowing the subject to non-HNM is a poor parry, considering half of those require a tank PT of some sort (including Nyzul, to an extent, on boss floors). I will agree that there's the question of differing playstyles, but then how can you say WHM is consitantly inferior in any scenario? Like most of what you said, its highly subjective to the point where it's rendered moot at best and totally wrong at worst. In any case, it doesn't disprove (and actually proves) the point of mine that you quoted: SCH's aren't used strictly for status cure-ga, its multiple defensive and supplementary buffs are what allow SCH to maintain a group for very little MP. WHM's lack of easy status healing is an issue, but nowhere near as significant as you're implying.

[Yugl]

If we're speaking of a scenario where Protect is being enhanced, then it stands to reason that Prot 5's current inferiority is irrelevant. It also stands to reason that if the series got any enhancements, the last in the series would get the most. To put it in simple terms, 5 > 4.

That all depends on how each level is enhanced. It could be the difference between 33 and 35 damage mitigated (If I take the phalanx idea for example). Of course if they were trying to enhance it and make there be a substantial difference between each level, then you would correct. Just enhancing Protect however, does not mean Pro 5 will be significantly better than Pro 4.

As I said, Sublimation, in and of itself, is NOT where SCH & WHM differ. Whether SCH is able to improve their's doesn't matter, because WHM then still has access to self-MP regeneration, which you implied it was lacking.

I didn't say WHM has no access to MP regen, I said it cannot access MP regen without SCH sub. After that I pointed out that even though it has access to this technique, it doesn't benefit from it as much as a SCH would.

Narrowing the subject to non-HNM is a poor parry, considering half of those require a tank PT of some sort (including Nyzul, to an extent, on boss floors).

Limbus - Depending on the area you may or may not need a "tank". NW is BLM Burn. SE can be blinked tanked by WAR or MNK. Only NE and SW are places where tanks (PLD and NIN specifically) would be needed. Omega tanking relies on shadows, and when Elegy is in effect, Phalanxga and SSga would serve almost no point. If anything, it may even cause problems since it's best to keep mages away from Omega's AOE/Conal moves if at all possible. On the other hand, Paralynaga makes Omega much easier. You could argue that Haste from WHM is more beneficial for shadow tanking, but in all honesty, I don't find it to be that much of an issue with two PLDs and Elegy.

Nyzul - Tank? DDs tank in Nyzul. I don't know about you, but I rarely if ever see a PLD at Nyzul. In my group and most other groups the DDs tank using Fanatics + Zerg damage. If the zerg damage isn't enough the healer burns through his or her MP as much as possible curing the DDs until the NM is taken down. Again, AoE SS and Phalanx are nice, but I would rather have the AoE ailment cures for Soulflayers and Discharge than AoE Phalanx or SS.

Einherjar - A tank isn't necessary except for the T3 Demon NM and for Odin. On other NMs we just have BRDs rotate and zerg the NM down with chainspell stuns (Or staggered Stuns if no RDM/DRK is present). Again SS and Phalanx nice, but as important as AoE ailment cures such as Cursnaga, Paralynaga (VERY nice to have), and Erasega.

I will agree that there's the question of differing playstyles, but then how can you say WHM is consitantly inferior in any scenario? Like most of what you said, its highly subjective to the point where it's rendered moot at best and totally wrong at worst.

The only two points mentioned where WHM isn't completely inferior to RDM and SCH are Merit PTs and HNMs. I've just listed three events where RDM and SCH come out on top of WHM. Two other events to mention would be Salvage and Dynamis. With regards to salvage, you're right. AoE Phalanx + SS acts as invincible for the early floors of Salvage. In Dynamis, SCH's superior MP regen rate combined with its JAs makes it better than WHM. There's two more events where WHM isn't better than RDM or SCH.

Considering all this, I think you might understand why I find WHM needs a buff (And judging by your earlier post, I would assume you agree). We both agree that WHM needs a technique to recover MP (Which is all I was trying to get at with the Sublimation argument) to make it competitive with RDM and another fix to make it competitive with SCH. I say that fix should be AoE ailment cures, you say it should be AoE buffs. Either way I think we can both agree that WHM needs a buff beyond MP recovery in order to make it more competitive or on par with other healers for non-merit/HNM situations.

[Kenji]

I think there's something that's being forgotten, here. Now, granted, this is an end-game forum; but WHMs are falling into a similar situation as BLM in the leveling game. That is, they are wanted at end-game, but leveling can be difficult, since RDM and SCH have much more mp regen available to them as healers.

What's needed, is a way to get mp back, but from an early level; 40-50 or so. So self-target Devotion is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't help the WHM leveling up. My solution isn't something unique (which is what SE will probably do), but it would help.

Simply allow WHM to learn Refresh(at 48), and Phalanxra(55?). Quite simply, WHM needs the spell leveling up, or they have to rest a LOT, thus slowing the party down. WHM also specializes in aoe spells, so phalanxra to lessen the damage the party is taking, thus reducing the healing needed. And Divine Veil on it's own 2 minute timer. Since Refresh doesn't work with Sublimation, it might bring the viability of other subs back into play.

SCH and RDM can still do a lot that WHM can't do.

And if SE is so hell-bent on getting RDM up to the front to melee, then add en-aspir, along with their en-spell IIs. The II versions would do a bit more damage, but also weaken the mob to the elemental alignment. Further strikes reduce it even more, to a point, like a Dancer's steps. Say, EN-Blizzard II reducing mob elemental defense against ice by 10 per strike, up to 50. Have to keep meleeing to keep it up.

Now it might be worth it to have a couple of RDM's melee'ing, one with En-stone II to help elegy land, and one with En-Thunder II for nuking BLMs. In fact, allow some stacking, so an RDM can cast En-Stone, melee it up to 50, and switch to En-thunder and get it up to 50, then switch back and forth between the spells, refreshing duration. Kinda how a DNC can keep quicksteps and box steps up.

[SenseiFF11]

I think there's something that's being forgotten, here. Now, granted, this is an end-game forum; but WHMs are falling into a similar situation as BLM in the leveling game. That is, they are wanted at end-game, but leveling can be difficult, since RDM and SCH have much more mp regen available to them as healers.

What's needed, is a way to get mp back, but from an early level; 40-50 or so. So self-target Devotion is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't help the WHM leveling up. My solution isn't something unique (which is what SE will probably do), but it would help.

Simply allow WHM to learn Refresh(at 48), and Phalanxra(55?). Quite simply, WHM needs the spell leveling up, or they have to rest a LOT, thus slowing the party down. WHM also specializes in aoe spells, so phalanxra to lessen the damage the party is taking, thus reducing the healing needed. And Divine Veil on it's own 2 minute timer. Since Refresh doesn't work with Sublimation, it might bring the viability of other subs back into play.

SCH and RDM can still do a lot that WHM can't do.

And if SE is so hell-bent on getting RDM up to the front to melee, then add en-aspir, along with their en-spell IIs. The II versions would do a bit more damage, but also weaken the mob to the elemental alignment. Further strikes reduce it even more, to a point, like a Dancer's steps. Say, EN-Blizzard II reducing mob elemental defense against ice by 10 per strike, up to 50. Have to keep meleeing to keep it up.

Now it might be worth it to have a couple of RDM's melee'ing, one with En-stone II to help elegy land, and one with En-Thunder II for nuking BLMs. In fact, allow some stacking, so an RDM can cast En-Stone, melee it up to 50, and switch to En-thunder and get it up to 50, then switch back and forth between the spells, refreshing duration. Kinda how a DNC can keep quicksteps and box steps up.

Yep, that what I always though and said, enspells tier II should really reduce the resistance of the monster!, omg it will be the best thing SE can do to the enspells tier II!. Oh for sure I want enspells tier II to deal more dmg aswell.

[LD]

The only two points mentioned where WHM isn't completely inferior to RDM and SCH are Merit PTs and HNMs.

In your opinion.

The fact of the matter is all you've shown is that in those instances, who heals doesn't really matter. As for Einherjar statusna spamming, that's still only a handful of mobs and with enough mages in the alliance, Accession +-na isn't necessary, just more convenient. Also, it's not as though WHM can't do the same, it just doesn't do it as well.


Also, in your reasons for choosing SCH over WHM, you said "The real kicker is its self-MP restoration (Already pointed out with RDM)..." Even out of context, I don't see how that could be read as anything other than 'SCH's sublimation is an advantage over WHM.' and it isn't. Though we certainly prefer to be in Sublimation gear, we aren't all the time, Ixion Clock, one of the better SCH pieces, prevents the use of both items, meaning WHM & SCH Sublimation speed is occasionally, and not at all rarely, equal. WHM also has the advantage of Auto-Regen, meaning unbuffed HP slip will only be 1HP at most, whereas SCH would need gear or spells to mitigate it.


Whether or not WHM needs a buff is not the point of this discussion. Since this thread is based on the news that WHM & RDM are getting melee buffs, the discussion is on what WHM & RDM should actually get, more wishing than talk of real balance issues. For my part, I was saying that WHM only needs a buff because of RDM & SCH's superiority, which I believe is dubious overall. Everything that actually makes SCH good can be used by WHM, and everything that makes it unique isn't really desired strongly enough for people to actually prefer one. To summarize, WHM doesn't really have any problems so much as it has decent competition, and I don't think that's enough reason to give it another buff. As long as it's the only job with R3, it'll always be around. There's really nothing to complain about.

I mean frankly, the constantly whining SMNs have more to bitch about.

[Sho]

Yep, that what I always though and said, enspells tier II should really reduce the resistance of the monster!, omg it will be the best thing SE can do to the enspells tier II!. Oh for sure I want enspells tier II to deal more dmg aswell.

Only problem I see in this is that AM, AM II, and Ninja spells already lower resistance. Hay tho, the more elemental debuffs the better. >.>

[SenseiFF11]

Only problem I see in this is that AM, AM II, and Ninja spells already lower resistance. Hay tho, the more elemental debuffs the better. >.>

/nod, I think that you are right. Maybe SE will do it cause NIN's use their spells rarely. But maybe SE will make the RDM's one better suited for the RDM job. I mean, it will reduce the magic evasion down against the elemental. Instead of reducing the "magic defense". Magic defense is more suited for BLM, and that's why their relic WS got it. I think SE could make enspells reduce magic evasion, that will be the perfect fit with Death Blossom!
I think even the NIN's one are magic defense down, so RDM one could be different. Magic evasion down is very good for landing enfeeb, and also if you have to "spam" a spell, so blm can keep spamming nuke with low "resist over time".
Like you said, more we get, and better it is.

[Yugl]

The fact of the matter is all you've shown is that in those instances, who heals doesn't really matter. As for Einherjar statusna spamming, that's still only a handful of mobs and with enough mages in the alliance, Accession +-na isn't necessary, just more convenient. Also, it's not as though WHM can't do the same, it just doesn't do it as well.

I think I made it obvious how SCH is more convenient in all of those events not just Einherjar. So what if it's only for a certain amount of mobs in Einherjar? It's still a factor to consider. That's why most advanced groups bring a mix of classes, not just all melee DDs (Even though that is the majority). In our group we have one healer and support per DD party. With that much lag going on one healer casting ailments on four DDs is taxing. It's much easier to use one JA and heal them all at once (Notice you're using less MP since it's four members cured of ailments). You're trying to disregard this point by saying "Oh it's only for a few mobs" or "Oh it just makes it more convenient" when really it can mean the difference between victory and wipe. Notice that all events I listed are timed events. Being more "convenient" saves time and allows the group to advance quicker. If you're able to advance quicker, you chance of beating said event is increased.Whether it be saving time/MP curing Bio from a Flayer NM in Nyzul or taking Paralyze off a pack of melee in Einherjar, SCH is a more convenient healer than WHM. When you consider the fact that WHM is only capable of healing when RDM and SCH have other roles they can fulfill, it's ridiculous that they excel at healing compared to WHM.

Also, in your reasons for choosing SCH over WHM, you said "The real kicker is its self-MP restoration (Already pointed out with RDM)..." Even out of context, I don't see how that could be read as anything other than 'SCH's sublimation is an advantage over WHM.' and it isn't. Though we certainly prefer to be in Sublimation gear, we aren't all the time, Ixion Clock, one of the better SCH pieces, prevents the use of both items, meaning WHM & SCH Sublimation speed is occasionally, and not at all rarely, equal. WHM also has the advantage of Auto-Regen, meaning unbuffed HP slip will only be 1HP at most, whereas SCH would need gear or spells to mitigate it.

Alright, that's a good point. It suggests that maybe WHM doesn't need MP restoration buffs to put it on par with the other classes. It still does not show how AoE Buffs such as SSaga and Phalanxaga are what WHM needs instead of AoE Ailment cures

Whether or not WHM needs a buff is not the point of this discussion. Since this thread is based on the news that WHM & RDM are getting melee buffs, the discussion is on what WHM & RDM should actually get, more wishing than talk of real balance issues.

The OP shared the info then commented on how meleeing isn't a good idea for buffing RDM and WHM. Imo, if you want to buff classes, it's always best to look at the balance issues.

For my part, I was saying that WHM only needs a buff because of RDM & SCH's superiority, which I believe is dubious overall. Everything that actually makes SCH good can be used by WHM, and everything that makes it unique isn't really desired strongly enough for people to actually prefer one.

That may be the case for you, there are some (I can't speak for the whole FFXI community) that would say they have a preference when it comes to WHM v SCH healing.

To summarize, WHM doesn't really have any problems so much as it has decent competition, and I don't think that's enough reason to give it another buff. As long as it's the only job with R3, it'll always be around. There's really nothing to complain about.

Well that's fine if you believe that. I just think there's a problem when a support class (Enfeebler) and a nuke class can out healing WHM whose only role is healing.

[Septimus]

Alright, that's a good point. It suggests that maybe WHM doesn't need MP restoration buffs to put it on par with the other classes. It still does not show how AoE Buffs such as SSaga and Phalanxaga are what WHM needs instead of AoE Ailment cures

If AoE Stoneskin and Phalanx would be so game changing that it would make WHMs get invites before everyone else, then why isn't SMN the most popular mage job in XP parties? SMNs get Earthen Ward (AoE Stoneskin) at 46, Hastega at 48, and Noctoshield (AoE Phalanx) at 49. Not to mention Eliptical Howl for AoE evasion and accuracy boost at 54. They also have auto refresh for MP recovery.

Biting the abilities of RDM and SCH (and one of the least popular jobs in the game, SMN) isn't the way to help a job that really doesn't really need that much help to begin with. There is nothing wrong with WHM, other than people are stupid for not wanting to bring them to events.

[Yugl]

If AoE Stoneskin and Phalanx would be so game changing that it would make WHMs get invites before everyone else, then why isn't SMN the most popular mage job in XP parties? SMNs get Earthen Ward (AoE Stoneskin) at 46, Hastega at 48, and Noctoshield (AoE Phalanx) at 49. Not to mention Eliptical Howl for AoE evasion and accuracy boost at 54. They also have auto refresh for MP recovery.

Biting the abilities of RDM and SCH (and one of the least popular jobs in the game, SMN) isn't the way to help a job that really doesn't really need that much help to begin with. There is nothing wrong with WHM, other than people are stupid for not wanting to bring them to events.

I think you're arguing against the wrong poster. I said AoE ailment heals are needed. LD said that AoE Buffs such as Phalanx and SS are needed.

In my post I was refering to this:

Spoiler: show

IMO, RDM's real standout quality isn't Refresh, but Convert (yes, who knew?) The instant-MP generation coupled with the relative ease of refilling your HP allows a RDM to keep a stredy amount of MP available. This probably has the simplest solution: Make Devotion self-target. A self-targeting Devotion with Sublimation would go a long way to help with WHM's endurance; it would still technically be weaker and more difficult to use than Convert, but since both can be absorbed by SS, you could maintain a decent amount of MP at less personal risk.

As for SCH, its many buffs are what separate it from WHM (also, its ability to nuke well, but improving Banish & Holy is a story for another day). WHM's standout buffs are obviously Shell 5 and the Bar- series, but that really only applies to the magical side of defense, and since boosting the physical defense stat isn't exactly a world-beater, Protect isn't going to do much on the high attack/high base damage monsters one tends to face. First solution is to enhance Protect, either by adding a physical damage resist (ala Sentinel) or fixing the defense stat. I feel enhancing Protect would help WHM gain ground in low-man situations as well as solidify their position on HNM, but WHM's buffing ability should go farther than that.

I expect that if they ever add Reflect (has had an effect for at least 3 years), WHM would get it, completely solidifying their place as magical buffers, but I think an AOE physical defense buff is what WHM needs in the current climate. if we just give WHM phalanxga or SSga, that would take away from SCH's niche, so maybe something...that increases the proc rate of all of a character's defensive skills by a significant amount? Sure, PLD would be even more broken, but NIN could actually depend on Parrying & Evasion more, and the DD could do better in low man stuff as well as the more difficult mobs.


RDM only needs what they're probably getting, new en-spells. Job is fine, blah.


I believe RDM, WHM, and SCH should all get Might from FF9 (think Brave, from FFT, but I prefer to pick one from the non-Ivalice continuum.) It would boost att by around 50 when it's first learned and have a cap of 100 (like SS's cap, it wouldn't be THAT hard to reach.) It would give RDM a new buff to use on PT members and allow them to melee better (if that's how they choose to live their lives), it would allow WHM to do the same and ensure that both WHM & RDM have the same number of single-target offensive buffs that can be used on PT members (e.g. Haste), and SCH would have an offensive buff to -ga besides just the en-spell line (so we don't have to keep pining over Haste....probably won't be as broken).

[Sho]

/nod, I think that you are right. Maybe SE will do it cause NIN's use their spells rarely. But maybe SE will make the RDM's one better suited for the RDM job. I mean, it will reduce the magic evasion down against the elemental. Instead of reducing the "magic defense". Magic defense is more suited for BLM, and that's why their relic WS got it. I think SE could make enspells reduce magic evasion, that will be the perfect fit with Death Blossom!
I think even the NIN's one are magic defense down, so RDM one could be different. Magic evasion down is very good for landing enfeeb, and also if you have to "spam" a spell, so blm can keep spamming nuke with low "resist over time".
Like you said, more we get, and better it is.

I like that idea. :D