RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Psepha]

Wait wait wait... I see an opportunity here. This could be time for them to add PvP to the game across the board. Because THEN, they could add weapons that heal the target when you hit them, like they've had in other FF games (FF9 springs to mind, Garnet definitely had one). Now THAT would be a good way for WHM to melee more. Then you could set yourself up next to the PLD as he tanks, and supply him with a small but continuous stream of HP.

Never going to happen, but my gods it'd be fun to help out the PLD by smacking his head in.

[The Stig]

Never going to happen, but my gods it'd be fun to help out the PLD by smacking his head in.

Will feed the PLD TP too . . .

[Blasta]

I was just thinking about Melee and Magic "stand" but it would be too complicated, maybe enspell IIs.

However...

Lets say RDM finishes Mandau, but is only allowed to use that natural 250 dagger skill. There should be hidden effect on all relics that boosts your skill (in this case dagger skill) to the cap. Why attestations mention about mastery if you cannot ever master the skill itself

Very good example is Club skill:
PLD: 269
WHM: 256

Mjollnir - WHM relic WHUUTU!? bs

[Ziero]

I think it's better to give to RDM and WHM a JA that can make refresh and haste available on striking when they want. It will have the same effect as hastega and refreshga with the benefit of costing less mp(the mp for one casting).

Just like Dnc?

For the enspells dmg, I'm sure that even if it's 70-80dmg, I doubt they will "crack" how many times it proc, honestly RDM deserve those spells. If they want to show how RDM is efficient with the "dot dmg" on melee, they need to give us decent-strong enspells and not adding a little nerf on that. And I really want a slap in the face of those people that keep saying "RDM dmg bite".

Why?

Imagine an enspell of a base DMG of 70-80(or 50-60), but that have a chance to deal more dmg depending of the physical dmg you deal.
That means let's say that the base dmg is 70-80(or any base dmg, not important), but that can keep going higher based on your physical dmg.(A % of your physical dmg). So ya if you critical hit a physical dmg, you can see a big increase in your enspells dmg. In other words, farther your sword enter inside the target flesh, and more dmg it take from your enspell;P.

...then that stops being about DoT and starts being about Dmg per hit.

OMG I wish I was working for the Development Team!
May SE hear this prayer, amen! (lol)

Thank god you don't.

Pro 5 is a joke.

Maybe that's why it could use a boost?

I think there's something that's being forgotten, here...*snip*...Simply allow WHM to learn Refresh(at 48), and Phalanxra(55?). Quite simply, WHM needs the spell leveling up, or they have to rest a LOT, thus slowing the party down. WHM also specializes in aoe spells, so phalanxra to lessen the damage the party is taking, thus reducing the healing needed. And Divine Veil on it's own 2 minute timer. Since Refresh doesn't work with Sublimation, it might bring the viability of other subs back into play.

I'll agree Whm need some form of natural MP regeneration before 75, but just giving them Refresh seems to be an excessively lazy idea. Almost as bad as giving Whm an AoE version of a spell Rdm's are forced to spend merits on. True, Whms need some boosts to it's support capabilities, but it can be done without stepping on other job's toes.

And if SE is so hell-bent on getting RDM up to the front to melee, then add en-aspir, along with their en-spell IIs. The II versions would do a bit more damage, but also weaken the mob to the elemental alignment. Further strikes reduce it even more, to a point, like a Dancer's steps. Say, EN-Blizzard II reducing mob elemental defense against ice by 10 per strike, up to 50. Have to keep meleeing to keep it up.

Now it might be worth it to have a couple of RDM's melee'ing, one with En-stone II to help elegy land, and one with En-Thunder II for nuking BLMs. In fact, allow some stacking, so an RDM can cast En-Stone, melee it up to 50, and switch to En-thunder and get it up to 50, then switch back and forth between the spells, refreshing duration. Kinda how a DNC can keep quicksteps and box steps up.

You know what other job has the ability to lower a Mobs Mdef through meleeing? Dnc. See how well that turned out?

Chances are, if you need to lower a Mobs Mdef or Meva...you shouldn't be meleeing it in the first place. Any enhancements Rdm and Whm get to melee skills will not help them melee mobs they can't already attack. Unless the update totally breaks the job's balance or they completely overhaul the job itself to turn it into a viable melee, neither Rdm or Whm are built to hit the big mobs. So once again they'll fall into the situation where they won't be able to melee against HNMs and won't have time to melee in TP burns, leaving them with the same old options and the same old complaints.

ILets say RDM finishes Mandau, but is only allowed to use that natural 250 dagger skill. There should be hidden effect on all relics that boosts your skill (in this case dagger skill) to the cap. Why attestations mention about mastery if you cannot ever master the skill itself

Very good example is Club skill:
PLD: 269
WHM: 256

Mjollnir - WHM relic WHUUTU!? bs

Sort of how like War can get the Gsword relic but not the Axe relic?

[Yugl]

Maybe that's why it could use a boost?

He said boost all forms of protect, which would still mean Pro 5 is crap if boosted to scale. Just boosting Pro 5 as it is now won't do much unless it gives some massive defense since for the most part VIT and defense aren't that important for PLD tanking. It's all about Utsu, HP, and Shield.

[Cog]

i agree with LD, making Devotion self-targetable would pump WHM's mp endurance.
...always puzzles me that it wasn't implemented that way.

but if they really wanted to give WHM's an excuse to melee in any situation:

Piety (Job Ability self-target, 2:00 recast, :15 duration)
converts damage taken to MP

[SenseiFF11]

Just like Dnc?



Why?
You know what other job has the ability to lower a Mobs Mdef through meleeing? Dnc. See how well that turned out?

Chances are, if you need to lower a Mobs Mdef or Meva...you shouldn't be meleeing it in the first place. Any enhancements Rdm and Whm get to melee skills will not help them melee mobs they can't already attack. Unless the update totally breaks the job's balance or they completely overhaul the job itself to turn it into a viable melee, neither Rdm or Whm are built to hit the big mobs. So once again they'll fall into the situation where they won't be able to melee against HNMs and won't have time to melee in TP burns, leaving them with the same old options and the same old complaints.

Yes just like dancer, it will be the best way to bring them to the front "instead" of making a refreshga and hastega that will cost more MP.(Scroll and read the person I quoted, please next time). If you have a better idea to diminush the RDM and WHM cycle buff on refresh and haste and others buff, present it, I would like to see it. That is exactly why they dont have time to melee in "tp burn", the buff cycle. Mirroring DCN's ability is the best way, and that is what they intend to do.

You ask me why RDM "deserve" a second tier of enspells? I hope that question is not serious, cause if it is, you seriously need to go back and analyze the RDM job better.
You need to compare it as a "magic knight" or "Sorcerer" depending of the FF version. He was meant to have a melange of magic and physical dmg when meleeing. Why he need a second tier, simply because the tier 1 are not only too weak, but because if they want RDM to "melee", they need to show the difference between RDM and others melee. That difference is the "ensorcelled blade" and nothing else. I hope you realised that buddy. And everyone can obtain enspells by subbing RDM, at level 54 they have all the RDM enspells and are able to deal "almost" same DMG as RDM when SCH cast it on them.(About 2 DMG differences). So if they want RDM to melee, he need to have something different than the others melee. Oh another good reason, RDM is waiting for those spells for years now.

You say "Any enhancements Rdm and Whm get to melee skills will not help them melee mobs they can't already attack."
So you know what RDM and WHM are going to get eh? Do you know at least on what this thread is about? Yes it's about a simple interview. Did you read that interview? I don't think so, go back there and read it.
RDM did not get updated for years now, the way people see RDM now is not what RDM was meant to be, that was due to lack of updates.
"Red Mages was meant to be GOOD with a sword, we are preparing to allow them to ASSUME a more OFFENSIVE role", did you read that sentence in the interview? Do you know that they can just increase the sword skills of RDM, to make them attack what they "can't already attack"?

Oh wait, if they increase the RDM sword skills, I bet you will call for a nerf and pretend that they "break" the job? If you do that, then you have been out of FFXI for a long time, cause the people that play RDM usually in FFXI, know that there is not reason for a BLU got more sword skills than RDM, if we say that those 2 jobs are supposed to be the " 2 fighter-mages" of the game.
Giving more sword skills to RDM will not break the job, this is what he's supposed to get, if we stick to the RDM definition that say he's a fighter-mage and flexible.
You do realise that 95% of the times in FFXI nowodays, RDM are better to the backlines? And isn't something that need to be fixed, if we stick to the definition that RDM is a "flexible" job, and so was meant to be good on the front like he is to the backline!?
We keep saying that RDM is a fighter-mage, and we keep saying on this thread that RDM is "flexible", but at the same time we put RDM to the backlines 95% of the times(If not more)? There is a big contradiction there. RDM is not relfecting his "flexibility" in FFXI right now, because of the melee part.
Giving a frontline adjustments to RDM, is something they deserve! And the goal of this update is to increase the opportunities for a Red Mage to move up to the frontlines.

[Yugl]

Yes just like dancer, it will be the best way to bring them to the front "instead" of making a refreshga and hastega that will cost more MP.(Scroll and read the person I quoted, please next time). If you have a better idea to diminush the RDM and WHM cycle buff on refresh and haste and others buff, present it, I would like to see it. That is exactly why they dont have time to melee in "tp burn", the buff cycle. Mirroring DCN's ability is the best way, and that is what they intend to do.

Increase the duration of buffs. Problem solved Mr. Lazy.

You ask me why RDM "deserve" a second tier of enspells? I hope that question is not serious, cause if it is, you seriously need to go back and analyze the RDM job better.
You need to compare it as a "magic knight" or "Sorcerer" depending of the FF version. He was meant to have a melange of magic and physical dmg when meleeing. Why he need a second tier, simply because the tier 1 are not only too weak, but because if they want RDM to "melee", they need to show the difference between RDM and others melee. That difference is the "ensorcelled blade" and nothing else. I hope you realised that buddy. And everyone can obtain enspells by subbing RDM, at level 54 they have all the RDM enspells and are able to deal "almost" same DMG as RDM when SCH cast it on them.(About 2 DMG differences). So if they want RDM to melee, he need to have something different than the others melee. Oh another good reason, RDM is waiting for those spells for years now.

Saying that it's obvious RDM needs melee capabilities then justifying that claim by using previous FFs is a lousy defense. RDM doesn't have to gain the same abilities it did in previous FFs. It's FFXI not FFIV. It may be based on the previous FFs, but that doesn't mean it needs to mimic them in every aspect. Ideas may be taken from previous FF versions, but it's not a necessity as you suggest.

You say "Any enhancements Rdm and Whm get to melee skills will not help them melee mobs they can't already attack."
So you know what RDM and WHM are going to get eh? Do you know at least on what this thread is about? Yes it's about a simple interview. Did you read that interview? I don't think so, go back there and read it.
RDM did not get updated for years now, the way people see RDM now is not what RDM was meant to be, that was due to lack of updates.

Who cares what RDM was meant to be. It is what it is. NIN was meant to be a DD, but it turned out to be an excellent tank (FFXI 2004). RDM may be meant to be some lousy melee, but it isn't. Deal with it.

"Red Mages was meant to be GOOD with a sword, we are preparing to allow them to ASSUME a more OFFENSIVE role", did you read that sentence in the interview? Do you know that they can just increase the sword skills of RDM, to make them attack what they "can't already attack"?

Are you reading what everyone else is posting? Can you comprehend what we're saying? We know SE wants to give RDM melee enhancement. Most of the people know that. It's an accepted fact. We're not debating what they said they're going to do. We're debating whether or not what they want to do is in our interests. Why? Because SE doesn't always make the best decisions. AV, Salvage drop rates (And allowing a glitch to go on forever), PW,15min repop on ??? for old areas, Non-instanced Dynamis/Limbus, Increased macro slots, and other aspects of the game are perfectly fine in SE's point of view. Does that make it true? Hell no. SE may say RDM needs a melee update, historically RDMs may have been capable of melee, they may even receive melee updates, but guess what? Players would rather have other updates. There are much more improvements SE could work on regarding WHM and RDM, but they neglect these possible improvements in favor of melee abilities. Most of the posters are pointing out that the addition of melee potential for these two classes is unnecessary.

Oh wait, if they increase the RDM sword skills, I bet you will call for a nerf and pretend that they "break" the job? If you do that, then you have been out of FFXI for a long time, cause the people that play RDM usually in FFXI, know that there is not reason for a BLU got more sword skills than RDM, if we say that those 2 jobs are supposed to be the " 2 fighter-mages" of the game.

No reason for a BLU to have more skill? BLU's only role is the melee DD department. That's a damn good reason why BLU should have more sword skill. Since when can a BLU heal as well as an RDM? Since when can a BLU enfeeble as well as an RDM? Since when can a BLU enhance the party as well as a RDM?

Also, if you cared to think about it for a second, Ziero is right about RDMs remaining in the back regardless of melee potential. There's generally two reasons why a RDM isn't meleeing: Buff Cycles and DMG/Enemy TP ratio. The former will continue to be a problem even if RDM melee potential is increased. If you have to cast Haste/Refresh, doing more damage to the mob won't solve that. The only way to solve the buff cycle problem is by increasing the duration of buffs or giving RDM access to -aga buffs. If the latter is the problem, then it means an RDM's melee potential will need to rival melee DDs. The problem with that? Balance. If you want RDM's melee capability to match it's backline capability, then you're basically saying you want RDM to have the best of all worlds. Yet, in doing so you neglect balancing aspect of FFXI. I wouldn't be surprised if SE does this since they're shown they're incapable of fixing many balancing issues within the game (BST,SMN,PUP,DNC).

[SenseiFF11]

Increase the duration of buffs. Problem solved Mr. Lazy.



Saying that it's obvious RDM needs melee capabilities then justifying that claim by using previous FFs is a lousy defense. RDM doesn't have to gain the same abilities it did in previous FFs. It's FFXI not FFIV. It may be based on the previous FFs, but that doesn't mean it needs to mimic them in every aspect. Ideas may be taken from previous FF versions, but it's not a necessity as you suggest.



Who cares what RDM was meant to be. It is what it is. NIN was meant to be a DD, but it turned out to be an excellent tank (FFXI 2004). RDM may be meant to be some lousy melee, but it isn't. Deal with it.



Are you reading what everyone else is posting? Can you comprehend what we're saying? We know SE wants to give RDM melee enhancement. Most of the people know that. It's an accepted fact. We're not debating what they said they're going to do. We're debating whether or not what they want to do is in our interests. Why? Because SE doesn't always make the best decisions. AV, Salvage drop rates (And allowing a glitch to go on forever), PW,15min repop on ??? for old areas, Non-instanced Dynamis/Limbus, Increased macro slots, and other aspects of the game are perfectly fine in SE's point of view. Does that make it true? Hell no. SE may say RDM needs a melee update, historically RDMs may have been capable of melee, they may even receive melee updates, but guess what? Players would rather have other updates. There are much more improvements SE could work on regarding WHM and RDM, but they neglect these possible improvements in favor of melee abilities. Most of the posters are pointing out that the addition of melee potential for these two classes is unnecessary.


No reason for a BLU to have more skill? BLU's only role is the melee DD department. That's a damn good reason why BLU should have more sword skill. Since when can a BLU heal as well as an RDM? Since when can a BLU enfeeble as well as an RDM? Since when can a BLU enhance the party as well as a RDM?

Also, if you cared to think about it for a second, Ziero is right about RDMs remaining in the back regardless of melee potential. There's generally two reasons why a RDM isn't meleeing: Buff Cycles and DMG/Enemy TP ratio. The former will continue to be a problem even if RDM melee potential is increased. If you have to cast Haste/Refresh, doing more damage to the mob won't solve that. The only way to solve the buff cycle problem is by increasing the duration of buffs or giving RDM access to -aga buffs. If the latter is the problem, then it means an RDM's melee potential will need to rival melee DDs. The problem with that? Balance. If you want RDM's melee capability to match it's backline capability, then you're basically saying you want RDM to have the best of all worlds. Yet, in doing so you neglect balancing aspect of FFXI. I wouldn't be surprised if SE does this since they're shown they're incapable of fixing many balancing issues within the game (BST,SMN,PUP,DNC).

Increase the buff duration "can" be something to solve the problem. I was just presenting a solution to solve the buff cycle, wich is mirroring what DCN is doing. DCN's is actually doing a little of what a WHM can do but with TP, so I there is no reason why we could see RDM and WHM do what DCN's do with mp. The solution you proposed is not better than mine, because yours is actually not solving the issue of buff "cycle", if I have to haste 5 people, I'll have to stop meleeing for a bit and cast those spells again. My solution reduce the time when RDM have to stop meleeing and buff people. And you should not call RDM and WHM lazy, buddy.

I do not use the other FFversions to "justify", that RDM need an update. Do you read people comment carefully? I said if you want to see what is the "incarnation" of RDM in FFXI, he's someone that was supposed to deal physical dmg added to magical dmg at once, "like" a magic knight. And I mentionned the "enchanted blade", you should go talk to Rainemard in WOTG, if you are a RDM he will talk about it. I was not "justifying" a RDM update with other FFversion, but making a comparison.
Ziero asked "why" RDM should get Enspells tier II. Guess what? this is a very stupid question. Know why?
Because SE want to bring the "Red Mages" to the frontline, that means the first thing they should think about is giving them more sword enchantements. This is the first adjustment that should be considered before any other adjustments, if you are planning to bring Red Mages to the frontline. Simply because that is what define a Red Mage to the frontlines!, and that is why I mentionned the Magic Knight or Sorcerer to actually help him "see" how RDM was meant to be to the frontline!, it was not to justify it. The justification to give enspells to RDM, is simply because it's what define that job to the front. It's their native spell. So you and your Ziero obviously didn't see it that way, because asking why a RDM should get enspells tier II, is one of the stupidest question you can ask.

Giving more skills to RDM is not to make him DD, but to increase his opportunities to move to the frontline. If we say that Red Mage was supposed to be flexible, and usually in party he's almost always to the backline, that means there is a problem somewhere. giving him more sword skills will give him more chance to move to the frontlines, now for sure it's not the only thing they should make. That is why I mentionned the blue mages. Again did you read carefully my last comment? Because I never said Blue Mage "should not" get more sword skills. I said and I repeat, there is no "valuable" reasons to give more sword skills to BLU compared to the RDM job. Those 2 jobs are different, but with the same definition: Fighter-mage. Yes Blue Mage DD, with magic.(Between, the sword skills don't make blue mages better DD, they have a A- skills because their physical magic accuracy is based on that. They did not gave them higher sword skills to make them DD with sword).
But RDM need a better skill too, not to "DD", but to enhance his flexibility.
There are 2 "main" reasons why RDM is mainly backline: the buff cycle, and his "accuracy".
Stop with the DMG and TP ratio bullshit, RDM is not a "DD" job, nor THF and DCN's are. You can compare THF and DCN's dmg to RDM most of the times, but THF have his "role" to the frontline, same for DCN's. SE need to give a "role" to the RDM and WHM frontline, an advantage they can bring to the frontline, that nobody else can.

When I say I want RDM to be like he is to the "backline", it's just an expression. My point is if that job is really flexible, then he shouldn't stand to the back only. Before even starting to argue about the RDM and WHM tweaks, we need to be agree on the part that RDM need a frontline adjustments. If we are not agree on that part, I don't even know why we're arguig. Cause this Ziero don't looks to be agree with that.

Like you can see on this thread, you see people saying: "RDM is overpowered". Then the same person say after: RDM is fine as he is, he's already balanced.
Well there is a big difference between beeing "overpowered" and beeing "balanced". Those people saying that are making a contradiction and they dont even realise it.
RDM is a "strong" job oh yes that is true, that maybe explain why he waited so long for an update. But there is a difference between beeing a "strong" job, and beeing "overpowered",there is no overpowered job in FFXI. And beeing a strong job, does not mean you don't need anything else. Samurai is a strong job, they get an update something some months ago. PLD is a strong job, they get an update almost every 3 months. Blue mage is a strong job, they "will" get new spells each time SE add new areas(this is on what the blue mage storyline is based on).
So while my last comment was not directly adressed to you, but to the people that keep saying RDM don't need any shit, if you think that RDM is "ok" as it is now, then we should just stop arguig.

[Blasta]

Good post above there, it is very interesting to see how they will enhance RDMs melee.
Raising sword/dagger skill cap from 250 would be "unfair", adding Enspell II would be too powerful especially when using Justice/Joyeuse/Kraken club.
It has to be new ability

[Ahlah]

Wow this thread is still goign strong and has turned into SCH vs WHM discussion

The only two points mentioned where WHM isn't completely inferior to RDM and SCH are Merit PTs and HNMs. I've just listed three events where RDM and SCH come out on top of WHM. Two other events to mention would be Salvage and Dynamis. With regards to salvage, you're right. AoE Phalanx + SS acts as invincible for the early floors of Salvage. In Dynamis, SCH's superior MP regen rate combined with its JAs makes it better than WHM. There's two more events where WHM isn't better than RDM or SCH.

SCH/RDM shouldn't replace WHM in Salvage, Stoneskinga + phalanxga is overrated and only really work on 1f. Inability to perform weaponskill negates the benefit of enspell. In zones where JA and SJ cells are rare, it's really not worth giving those cells to SCH first since most experienced salvage group only spend limited time on 1f.

The biggest problem with SCH/RDM in salvage is lack of curaga spells. 1min curaga/status curaga is not going to keep up with gear TP spam. Another thing I find it extremely annoying is the fact that SCH will have to activate certain job ability before they can actually gain the benefit. Few second delay can mean life or death in salvage.

Sublimation is also overrated in salvage. SCH need HP and at least head cells to gain full benefit (on top of JA cell). The 40mp saved by RDM to cast refresh on SCH is now used to cast haste on 2nd tank, which is limited by haste recast. It's just way more convenient to have RDM and WHM share haste duty.

Hybrid job will never replace highly specialised job in events that really matter. Any mage job with decent mp pool and access to cure 3 can main heal in Limbus. RDM would have been a worthless job if SE hadn't added refresh/haste/convert and bumped its enfeebling magic to A-. The same reason why COR can't replace BRD in melee zerg party. RDM is only a overpowered job if you have the gear/merit/skill to make it happen. SE do not nerf RDM because there are tons of RDM in this game and only very few have the right skill/gear to solo tough NM or play RDM tank.

[Ziero]

Yes just like dancer, it will be the best way to bring them to the front "instead" of making a refreshga and hastega that will cost more MP.(Scroll and read the person I quoted, please next time). If you have a better idea to diminush the RDM and WHM cycle buff on refresh and haste and others buff, present it, I would like to see it. That is exactly why they dont have time to melee in "tp burn", the buff cycle. Mirroring DCN's ability is the best way, and that is what they intend to do.

Except people don't want Dncs as much as they do Rdms. Dncs don't melee HNMs and can't support a PT as well in TP burns. That's WITH abilities to lower Def/Mdef/Eva and give haste to everyone who hits a mob. So if it doesn't work for Dnc, a job that is built to melee, a class that can gear for Acc/Haste and can eat melee foods, how could it work for Rdm?

P.S. Rdms don't melee in TP burns because there's no need for them to. The mob dies in 30 seconds or less. They're better off spending whatever free time they have sleeping the next mob or resting MP to continue the chain.

You ask me why RDM "deserve" a second tier of enspells? I hope that question is not serious, cause if it is, you seriously need to go back and analyze the RDM job better.
You need to compare it as a "magic knight" or "Sorcerer" depending of the FF version. He was meant to have a melange of magic and physical dmg when meleeing. Why he need a second tier, simply because the tier 1 are not only too weak, but because if they want RDM to "melee", they need to show the difference between RDM and others melee. That difference is the "ensorcelled blade" and nothing else. I hope you realised that buddy. And everyone can obtain enspells by subbing RDM, at level 54 they have all the RDM enspells and are able to deal "almost" same DMG as RDM when SCH cast it on them.(About 2 DMG differences). So if they want RDM to melee, he need to have something different than the others melee. Oh another good reason, RDM is waiting for those spells for years now.

First off, why am I comparing two different jobs? Rdm was always a mix of everything where Mystic Knight was a pure DD. It's like saying Rdm should get tier IV spells and A ranked elemental skill because they're fighter-mages (c wut I did thar?). I'm not saying Rdm shouldn't get anything, hell even if they do get Tier 2 enspells I wouldn't complain, but I just don't get why they "deserve" it. The job is flexible enough to be excellent support in the right situations with the right set-ups and melee effectively in the right situations with the right set-ups. The only thing is that those situtations and set-ups do not, nor should not, mix.

You say "Any enhancements Rdm and Whm get to melee skills will not help them melee mobs they can't already attack."
So you know what RDM and WHM are going to get eh? Do you know at least on what this thread is about? Yes it's about a simple interview. Did you read that interview? I don't think so, go back there and read it.
RDM did not get updated for years now, the way people see RDM now is not what RDM was meant to be, that was due to lack of updates.
"Red Mages was meant to be GOOD with a sword, we are preparing to allow them to ASSUME a more OFFENSIVE role", did you read that sentence in the interview? Do you know that they can just increase the sword skills of RDM, to make them attack what they "can't already attack"?

Even if they give Rdm tier 2 enspells AND increase their Sword to A ranked, they're still going to be wanted as back line support. Their melee Dmg will not be as effective as their support. And the only way they'd be able to melee effectively on things they can't already hit is to wear acc/att gear and eat melee foods, which directly interferes with their support capabilities. Because they are so strong at supporting a pt the only way they'd be able to melee *every* mob is if their melee abilities were made stronger then their support. And that would break the game. Rdm ARE good with a sword, infact they get some of the best in game. But they're also good with magic. And for them to be useful in a situation, they need to gear and enhance either their melee or magic skills for that situation. If you want to talk about original intentions, Warrior was supposed to be one of the best main tanks in this game. Now you tell me what's the last big mob or event where a War was your main tank? (FYI, SE's last attempt to boost War's tanking skill...it didn't work out too well)

Oh wait, if they increase the RDM sword skills, I bet you will call for a nerf and pretend that they "break" the job? If you do that, then you have been out of FFXI for a long time, cause the people that play RDM usually in FFXI, know that there is not reason for a BLU got more sword skills than RDM, if we say that those 2 jobs are supposed to be the " 2 fighter-mages" of the game.

Rdm is not a true "fighter-mage" they are a jack of all trades, master of none. They have to gear and equip themselves correctly to allow for themselves to be effective in a certain situation. Blu on the otherhand are a completely fighter based mage. Their spells are directly tied to melee stats. They need to swing their sword and gain TP to increase their spells damage. And while Rdm is better at support then it is at melee, Blu is better at melee then it is at support. They're similar but different jobs and far from interchangable based on how they're built. And unless Rdm get's some massive job changing overhaul, which includes more then increased combat skill and new en-spells, they're never going to be able to melee as much as Blus.

You do realise that 95% of the times in FFXI nowodays, RDM are better to the backlines? And isn't something that need to be fixed, if we stick to the definition that RDM is a "flexible" job, and so was meant to be good on the front like he is to the backline!?
We keep saying that RDM is a fighter-mage, and we keep saying on this thread that RDM is "flexible", but at the same time we put RDM to the backlines 95% of the times(If not more)? There is a big contradiction there. RDM is not relfecting his "flexibility" in FFXI right now, because of the melee part.

Rdm is flexible, but it's also balanced. However it's also insanely strong and overpowered to the point of near broken when it's full potential is reached.

Giving a frontline adjustments to RDM, is something they deserve! And the goal of this update is to increase the opportunities for a Red Mage to move up to the frontlines.

I'll say they deserve something since it's been so long since they got anything new. But I won't say they "deserve" to melee every mob in the game...because there's just no need for it.

Increase the buff duration "can" be something to solve the problem. I was just presenting a solution to solve the buff cycle, wich is mirroring what DCN is doing. DCN's is actually doing a little of what a WHM can do but with TP, so I there is no reason why we could see RDM and WHM do what DCN's do with mp. The solution you proposed is not better than mine, because yours is actually not solving the issue of buff "cycle", if I have to haste 5 people, I'll have to stop meleeing for a bit and cast those spells again. My solution reduce the time when RDM have to stop meleeing and buff people. And you should not call RDM and WHM lazy, buddy

Actually, he was calling you specifcally lazy. And again, Dnc is really a horrible model to base your hopes on because Dnc has it's own sets of problems. And if a job built to support via melee has problems, how well do you think a job that's built to support via spells will have when it tries to support with melee?

So you and your Ziero obviously didn't see it that way, because asking why a RDM should get enspells tier II, is one of the stupidest question you can ask.

I didn't know I belonged to anyone. And I wasn't asking why Rdm should get new En-spells, I was asking why they "deserve" a melee buff. Saying "because I want to melee HNMs!" isn't exactly a good reason to buff a job that's already strong and desired in almost every aspect of this game. Just because you don't have doesn't mean you should get.

Giving more skills to RDM is not to make him DD, but to increase his opportunities to move to the frontline. If we say that Red Mage was supposed to be flexible, and usually in party he's almost always to the backline, that means there is a problem somewhere. giving him more sword skills will give him more chance to move to the frontlines, now for sure it's not the only thing they should make. That is why I mentionned the blue mages. Again did you read carefully my last comment? Because I never said Blue Mage "should not" get more sword skills. I said and I repeat, there is no "valuable" reasons to give more sword skills to BLU compared to the RDM job. Those 2 jobs are different, but with the same definition: Fighter-mage. Yes Blue Mage DD, with magic.(Between, the sword skills don't make blue mages better DD, they have a A- skills because their physical magic accuracy is based on that. They did not gave them higher sword skills to make them DD with sword).
But RDM need a better skill too, not to "DD", but to enhance his flexibility.
There are 2 "main" reasons why RDM is mainly backline: the buff cycle, and his "accuracy".

Rdm gets tier 2 en-spells that do up to 50-60 dmg a swing unresisted and an A ranked sword skill. What situations would you suddenly be able to melee in? HNMs? Nope, not there. You'd still have piddly crap melee Dmg, be within AoE range and would be sacrificing your much stronger enfeebles, buffs and cures to even hit the mob. TP burns? Not here either. Real melees wear excessively strong gear and eat the best melee foods just to kill the mob in 30 seconds or less as is, why would they need a Rdm to melee things that die in the blink of an eye? Assaults and Nyzul? In a small man pt, Rdms endless MP and support is near invaluable, but I suppose you can melee some mobs. Heck Rdms I go with to these things already do! But that's not something new then. Oh, I know! Low lvl Exp pts right? But wait, people often invite Rdm to support or main heal in those and get real DDs for meleeing. I guess maybe you could melee if everyone is fully cured, buffed, the mob is enfeebled and you have full MP and a decent melee set on you. That happens often in low lvl Exp pts...right?

Seriously, you tell me what situations would open up to Rdm melee with stronger en-spells and higher weapon skills.

Stop with the DMG and TP ratio bullshit, RDM is not a "DD" job, nor THF and DCN's are. You can compare THF and DCN's dmg to RDM most of the times, but THF have his "role" to the frontline, same for DCN's. SE need to give a "role" to the RDM and WHM frontline, an advantage they can bring to the frontline, that nobody else can.

Thf IS a DD, and the fact it's not allowed to melee on HNMs is one of the jobs biggest problems. And Dnc doesn't melee HNMs either, which is again, one of the classes biggest problems. Despite both jobs having access to plenty of Subtle Blow traits, neither job is very HNM friendly because they give HNM too much TP for too little Dmg. Rdms aren't singled out by this fact, all one handed weapon users suffer from it.

When I say I want RDM to be like he is to the "backline", it's just an expression. My point is if that job is really flexible, then he shouldn't stand to the back only. Before even starting to argue about the RDM and WHM tweaks, we need to be agree on the part that RDM need a frontline adjustments. If we are not agree on that part, I don't even know why we're arguig. Cause this Ziero don't looks to be agree with that.

I don't agree with it because RDM frontline is, and always will be, situational. It's not that they can't do it sometimes, it's that they can't do it ALL the time. There are plenty of places a Rdm can, will and should melee. But it's just not enough, they want it all and they won't stop bitching till they get it. But why? Why do Rdm want to melee everything and anything so badly?

And the answer to that is simply because it's fun. It's not because they can't do anything else, or because there are no jobs that can melee like Rdm, it's because Rdms want to do it all and won't take anything less. But the problem is, even when a Rdm can't melee, they're still damn near gaurenteed a spot in every single event in this game. TP burns, Manaburns, Salvage, Dynamis, HNMs, campaign, mission BCs, from everything to anything, whether a Rdm can hit a mob or not, they're still wanted. But what happens when a Dnc can't hit a mob? When that happens, they're useless. And because of that, Dnc finds itself losing out on a lot of the same things a Rdm is a no brainer to, despite having similar capabilities. Rdm do not "deserve" a frontline update, they want one. Just to have it. Dnc deserves a frontline update, because if they can't melee then they're useless.

[arus2001]

Rdm gets tier 2 en-spells that do up to 50-60 dmg a swing unresisted and an A ranked sword skill. What situations would you suddenly be able to melee in? HNMs? Nope, not there. You'd still have piddly crap melee Dmg, be within AoE range and would be sacrificing your much stronger enfeebles, buffs and cures to even hit the mob. TP burns? Not here either. Real melees wear excessively strong gear and eat the best melee foods just to kill the mob in 30 seconds or less as is, why would they need a Rdm to melee things that die in the blink of an eye? Assaults and Nyzul? In a small man pt, Rdms endless MP and support is near invaluable, but I suppose you can melee some mobs. Heck Rdms I go with to these things already do! But that's not something new then. Oh, I know! Low lvl Exp pts right? But wait, people often invite Rdm to support or main heal in those and get real DDs for meleeing. I guess maybe you could melee if everyone is fully cured, buffed, the mob is enfeebled and you have full MP and a decent melee set on you. That happens often in low lvl Exp pts...right?

Seriously, you tell me what situations would open up to Rdm melee with stronger en-spells and higher weapon skills.

Actually, if they get some stupid 50-60 enspell that doesn't resist much, they could throw on a Ceremonial Dagger or even Beestinger, put on -stat gear like Errant, Aiming Bracelets, ACC where otherwise needed, etc., and in turn give the mob no TP from physical hits while the enspells do their thing without TP or hate. Paired with MDEF and Stoneskin, RDM is a lesser liability than, say, a SAM running in to SA/TA a WS then run out.

However, because of that, it's probably safe to assume SE won't go the pure damage route. They may do 30-35 at most, then have some quirky effect based on day or element. Regardless of what they do, I expect the community to not accept it even if it is good.

[Yugl]

The biggest problem with SCH/RDM in salvage is lack of curaga spells. 1min curaga/status curaga is not going to keep up with gear TP spam. Another thing I find it extremely annoying is the fact that SCH will have to activate certain job ability before they can actually gain the benefit. Few second delay can mean life or death in salvage.

It's not that much delay. Just change gears and your skip the animation. Other than hitting the JA Macro there isn't much more time wasted casting Curaga. Paralyze on the other hand can mean the difference between wipe and win. Especially in cases where tanks rely on their shadows.

Hybrid job will never replace highly specialised job in events that really matter.

So I guess Limbus, Dynamis, Einherjar, and Nyzul Isle don't matter right?

Any mage job with decent mp pool and access to cure 3 can main heal in Limbus.

We're not talking about what *can* heal. We're talking about which is *better* at healing. Cure V and Regen III are not nearly as important as some of the AoE -na spells SCH has available.

RDM would have been a worthless job if SE hadn't added refresh/haste/convert and bumped its enfeebling magic to A-.

I already pointed that earlier, what's your point? The fact that it does have access to those spells makes it better than WHM.

The same reason why COR can't replace BRD in melee zerg party.

What reason? COR isn't a hybrid, it melees because it really has nothing else to do and it happens to have the skill level/weapon to do decent damage. The reason COR doesn't replace BRD is because of march. Both are buff classes, one just performs it better than the other.

RDM is only a overpowered job if you have the gear/merit/skill to make it happen. SE do not nerf RDM because there are tons of RDM in this game and only very few have the right skill/gear to solo tough NM or play RDM tank.

You're missing the point. RDM is a support class. WHM is a healing class. Which would you expect to be the better healer? WHM if you had no knowledge about the game. However, for most scenarios that is not the case. RDM is increasingly (Since more events are about limited time and lots of little mobs instead of HNMs) becoming a better healer than WHM. That is the problem I and many others see.

Increase the buff duration "can" be something to solve the problem. I was just presenting a solution to solve the buff cycle, wich is mirroring what DCN is doing. DCN's is actually doing a little of what a WHM can do but with TP, so I there is no reason why we could see RDM and WHM do what DCN's do with mp. The solution you proposed is not better than mine, because yours is actually not solving the issue of buff "cycle", if I have to haste 5 people, I'll have to stop meleeing for a bit and cast those spells again. My solution reduce the time when RDM have to stop meleeing and buff people. And you should not call RDM and WHM lazy, buddy.

It's pretty obvious that increasing the duration will solve the buff cycle problem. If Haste and Refresh lasted 30min-1hr (This would also grant you more MP) you wouldn't be locked into a buff cycle because it allows you to melee without needing to cast.

I do not use the other FFversions to "justify", that RDM need an update. Do you read people comment carefully? I said if you want to see what is the "incarnation" of RDM in FFXI, he's someone that was supposed to deal physical dmg added to magical dmg at once, "like" a magic knight.

You are justifying your claim using previous FF games. Your "comparison" is the reason you suggest RDM should get melee buffs. Better yet, if other FF games aren't the reason why RDM should get a melee buff, then what is the reason RDMs should get a melee buff? Because its been called a lolfighter-mage? Guess what, it has access to sword skill and enspells. So it *can* melee. Fighter role solved. It *can* cast spells. Mage role solved. There I've just used your Fighter-mage justification and shown that RDM already poses the qualities to satisfy this title. What you want to do is buff RDM's melee potential, but as I've pointed out earlier, unless it is increased to broken measures, it will not change the amount of situations in which RDM can melee.

Giving more skills to RDM is not to make him DD, but to increase his opportunities to move to the frontline. If we say that Red Mage was supposed to be flexible, and usually in party he's almost always to the backline, that means there is a problem somewhere. giving him more sword skills will give him more chance to move to the frontlines, now for sure it's not the only thing they should make.

In what scenarios where RDM cannot melee will increasing his sword skill make him able to melee. Just point it out now. Merits? Dynamis? Einherjar? Limbus? Nyzul Isle? Salvage? HNMs?

Giving more skills to RDM is not to make him DD, but to increase his opportunities to move to the frontline. If we say that Red Mage was supposed to be flexible, and usually in party he's almost always to the backline, that means there is a problem somewhere. giving him more sword skills will give him more chance to move to the frontlines, now for sure it's not the only thing they should make. That is why I mentionned the blue mages. Again did you read carefully my last comment? Because I never said Blue Mage "should not" get more sword skills. I said and I repeat, there is no "valuable" reasons to give more sword skills to BLU compared to the RDM job. Those 2 jobs are different, but with the same definition: Fighter-mage. Yes Blue Mage DD, with magic.(Between, the sword skills don't make blue mages better DD, they have a A- skills because their physical magic accuracy is based on that. They did not gave them higher sword skills to make them DD with sword).

Maybe you should get your English teacher to translate what I'm saying for you. I never accused you of saying BLU shouldn't get more sword skill. I said BLU has sword skill because its primary role is DD. Why would they need sword skill for spell accuracy? Why not just make it based off Blue Magic skill like all the other damn spells in this game? They could have easily done that, but they didn't. Why? They want BLUs to melee. They want BLUs to DD. The fact that you deny this clearly proves you don't know shit about BLU. I don't what kind of BLU you PT with, maybe some AF loser like yourself sporting Astral Rings, but most BLUs pump out damage with their melee instead of spamming their MP to shit.

[Ahlah]

You know sometime I feel that you are only arguing for the sake of arguing. RDM and WHM can easily handle paralyze when MNK tanks are fighting megaboss. There is no need for paralyna-ga. And how many aga statuc cure can a SCH perform in a 10 min boss fight? WHM is clearly a better option compared to SCH in Salvage. If you can't understand the reason why may be the discussion should stop right here before it turns into another shout battle.

To be honest who care whether SCH is a better healer than WHM in Dynamis/Limbus/Nyzul Isle? Ppl have been low manning those events way before SCH was introduced. I cleared Nyzul Isle after the last NI adjustment in 2 months doing 3 NI a week with a static party of DDx2, THF, BLU, RDM, BRD. We don't even need a SCH or WHM. Ppl are not going to level SCH to replace their WHM so that they can heal better in those events. Like I say, what really matter are those challenging fight, and you need specialised jobs. You can't replace a BRD with COR in melee zerg hoping to see the same result. Soul voice buffs are irrreplaceable. same as WHM's CureV/ShellraV/barspell.

I have played all the major mage jobs and I can't think of a good reason to level SCH. It's a job good for ppl who normally play melee and just want a mage job that offers both offensive and defensive abilities. I will rather level BLU than SCH.

[Ophannus]

Now you tell me what's the last big mob or event where a War was your main tank?

Didn't Bluegartr or IronLS or something like that exclusively tank Jormy/Tiamat/Ouryu with 2 WAR/WHM's back in 05?

[Yugl]

You know sometime I feel that you are only arguing for the sake of arguing. RDM and WHM can easily handle paralyze when MNK tanks are fighting megaboss. There is no need for paralyna-ga. And how many aga statuc cure can a SCH perform in a 10 min boss fight?

Ahlah, have you been reading what was posted or do you just jump into arguments without knowing what's being discussed? In a comparison between WHM and SCH (Not WHM and RDM v SCH), which would be more effective in dishing out multiple -na spells? It's not about what can be done, anyone with sub WHM can throw out paralyna. Convenience and efficiency.

If you can't understand the reason why may be the discussion should stop right here before it turns into another shout battle.

Or you could make of for that 50pt IQ by not posting. Yeah I went there first (We all knew it was coming).

To be honest who care whether SCH is a better healer than WHM in Dynamis/Limbus/Nyzul Isle? Ppl have been low manning those events way before SCH was introduced. I cleared Nyzul Isle after the last NI adjustment in 2 months doing 3 NI a week with a static party of DDx2, THF, BLU, RDM, BRD. We don't even need a SCH or WHM. Ppl are not going to level SCH to replace their WHM so that they can heal better in those events. Like I say, what really matter are those challenging fight, and you need specialised jobs.

And if someone has SCH and WHM, which would be better for Nyzul? A SCH. RDM v WHM for Nyzul? A RDM. Why should WHM remain outperformed in every case other than situations where specialized classes are needed? On a much smaller scale, it's the same as saying SMN is fine because it has specific battles where it performs well. Is it right for an enfeebling/support class to outperform a healer class at healing at all events except ones requiring specialized roles?

You can't replace a BRD with COR in melee zerg hoping to see the same result. Soul voice buffs are irrreplaceable. same as WHM's CureV/ShellraV/barspell.

No one is arguing against BRD > COR. If anything it only proves my point. BRD is only capable of buffing. COR is capable of buffing and DDing. Would it be fair for COR to suddenly outperform BRD in every situation except for Salvage (I'll throw you that one for free) and HNMs?

[Izzy]

It was cool reading the discussions going on until Molly McStupidfuck came back and started posting. I'm expecting lots of thread shitting now.

[Ahlah]

I don't even know why you are still posting.

You make status aga sound like a big thing. In practice it's very limited use unless SCH can cast aoe status cure anytime they want. I don't see how you can classify SCH aoe status cure when you can only do it every 1 min as "conveniet and effective". It's not like the mob you are fighting can only inflict aoe status ailment once per fight. Multiple -na is overrated. WHM can easily handle status cure in any small event. You don't need SCH to do the job. In big fight tank party will always have RDM/WHM and BRD/WHM to back up status cure anyway.

And please tell me you don't actually believe SCH will outperform WHM in salvage.

Why should WHM remain outperformed in every case other than situations where specialized classes are needed? On a much smaller scale, it's the same as saying SMN is fine because it has specific battles where it performs well. Is it right for an enfeebling/support class to outperform a healer class at healing at all events except ones requiring specialized roles?

Your arguement about RDM/WHM/SCH is pathetic. The only reason why RDM outperform WHM as mainhealer in low man events is because of its superior mp management thanks to refresh/autorefresh gear and convert. Whereas WHM will always outperform RDM in serious fight when more sophisticated healing is required. This is nothing new and has been widely accepted by the whole playerbase. Why do you even bother to bring up RDM in the discussion of SCH vs WHM?

The difference between WHM/SCH and SCH is so small you can bring either job and still clear Nyzul Isle. A good WHM/SCH can handle healing just fine in any event you just mentioned. On the other hand, there are many situations when not having a WHM will completely cripple your alliance. I don't even know why you make a big fuss about mp management between the 2 jobs. The difference between a WHM/SCH and SCH is so small you won't even see the difference in practice.

I will take a WHM to any of the events you just mention anyday. When ppl die in those events I want to see Raise3 and not Raise2. I want to see Haste on my tank and not some lame stonekinga/phalanxga. Your attempt to promote hybrid job only shows that you have very little knowledge of what constitute endgame events. Who really care whether BRD can DD or WHM can cast elemental nukes? When I am organising a serious fight I want the best job in each party slot, not some hybrid jobs which can only handle half of what they are expected to do. SCH (at current stage) will never replace WHM in this game.

It was cool reading the discussions going on until Molly McStupidfuck came back and started posting. I'm expecting lots of thread shitting now

Anything is better than some silly WHM who refuse to admit upgrading Mjollnir is the worst thing they have ever done in this game because they can't outdamage a AH WAR with 2 axes.

And stop saying ppl badmouthing you first, this is the treatment you will get when you try to pick a fight.

[Izzy]

Anything is better than some silly WHM who refuse to admit upgrading Mjollnir is the worst thing they have ever done in this game because they can't outdamage a AH WAR with 2 axes.

And stop saying ppl badmouthing you first, this is the treatment you will get when you try to pick a fight.

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