RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Yugl]

You make status aga sound like a big thing. In practice it's very limited use unless SCH can cast aoe status cure anytime they want. I don't see how you can classify SCH aoe status cure when you can only do it every 1 min as "conveniet and effective". It's not like the mob you are fighting can only inflict aoe status ailment once per fight. Multiple -na is overrated. WHM can easily handle status cure in any small event. You don't need SCH to do the job. In big fight tank party will always have RDM/WHM and BRD/WHM to back up status cure anyway.

In some cases it's a big deal in some cases it's not. But guess what? It puts SCH ahead in those situations I listed. Maybe if you cared to read the thread (Or work on your English for that matter), you would realize that no one is saying WHM is useless or unable to perform well, it's just not able to perform as well.

Your arguement about RDM/WHM/SCH is pathetic. The only reason why RDM outperform WHM as mainhealer in low man events is because of its superior mp management thanks to refresh/autorefresh gear and convert.

I've already said this before. If you bothered to look at what was posted earlier, this is an issue most of us agree upon. Why are you arguing about it?

Whereas WHM will always outperform RDM in serious fight when more sophisticated healing is required. This is nothing new and has been widely accepted by the whole playerbase. Why do you even bother to bring up RDM in the discussion of SCH vs WHM?

The WHM v SCH debate stemmed from the idea that RDM and SCH outperform WHM in most situations within FFXI. If you're so fucking brilliant, you would have figured this out before posting. You keep referring to "sophisticated" events where WHM comes out on top. But lets see how this compares to events where WHM doesn't come out on top:

WHM top healer: HNMs, Salvage

WHM not top healer: Nyzul, Einherjar, Limbus

Is it clicking now?

The difference between WHM/SCH and SCH is so small you can bring either job and still clear Nyzul Isle. A good WHM/SCH can handle healing just fine in any event you just mentioned. On the other hand, there are many situations when not having a WHM will completely cripple your alliance. I don't even know why you make a big fuss about mp management between the 2 jobs. The difference between a WHM/SCH and SCH is so small you won't even see the difference in practice.

Like I said, in some cases it's a minimal difference and in some cases it's a grand difference. Regardless of whichever is the case, I would expect the difference to be in favor of WHM.

I will take a WHM to any of the events you just mention anyday. When ppl die in those events I want to see Raise3 and not Raise2. I want to see Haste on my tank and not some lame stonekinga/phalanxga. Your attempt to promote hybrid job only shows that you have very little knowledge of what constitute endgame events. Who really care whether BRD can DD or WHM can cast elemental nukes? When I am organising a serious fight I want the best job in each party slot, not some hybrid jobs which can only handle half of what they are expected to do. SCH (at current stage) will never replace WHM in this game.

Here's the problem with your argument:It's only limited to two activities. Whenever you refer to serious fights, it's always an activity where WHM is needed. That's basically making a tautology out of serious fights by saying any fight where WHM isn't needed isn't a serious fight. If that's how you choose to define serious fights then there is nothing to argue about since it's pretty much the same as saying a fight where WHM is needed is a fighter where WHM is needed. I don't know about you, but I consider Omega/Ultima/Odin/Floor 100/DL/Dynamis-Tav to be serious fights. Sure they can be done with less members than allowed, but in order to do so you need good communication, strategy, gear, and experience. If only HNMs and Salvage existed in this game, then I would agree that there isn't an issue. However, that is not the case.

[Lishje]

lol. Ahlah.

I'm having... flashbacks from the Alla forums.

Example: Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Beastmaster

Turn off your filters ;p

[SenseiFF11]

First off, why am I comparing two different jobs? Rdm was always a mix of everything where Mystic Knight was a pure DD. It's like saying Rdm should get tier IV spells and A ranked elemental skill because they're fighter-mages (c wut I did thar?). I'm not saying Rdm shouldn't get anything, hell even if they do get Tier 2 enspells I wouldn't complain, but I just don't get why they "deserve" it. The job is flexible enough to be excellent support in the right situations with the right set-ups and melee effectively in the right situations with the right set-ups. The only thing is that those situtations and set-ups do not, nor should not, mix.



Even if they give Rdm tier 2 enspells AND increase their Sword to A ranked, they're still going to be wanted as back line support. Their melee Dmg will not be as effective as their support. And the only way they'd be able to melee effectively on things they can't already hit is to wear acc/att gear and eat melee foods, which directly interferes with their support capabilities. Because they are so strong at supporting a pt the only way they'd be able to melee *every* mob is if their melee abilities were made stronger then their support. And that would break the game. Rdm ARE good with a sword, infact they get some of the best in game. But they're also good with magic. And for them to be useful in a situation, they need to gear and enhance either their melee or magic skills for that situation. If you want to talk about original intentions, Warrior was supposed to be one of the best main tanks in this game. Now you tell me what's the last big mob or event where a War was your main tank? (FYI, SE's last attempt to boost War's tanking skill...it didn't work out too well)



Rdm is not a true "fighter-mage" they are a jack of all trades, master of none.

First, RDM master enfeebling and enhancing magic, and sword enchantements(wich need to be developped by SE, it's the part that have been left out since that job exist) that "master of none" title was good for old FF games, it's not working for RDM in FFXI. Call them jack of all trade if you want, but not master of none, in FFXI each jobs master something and have a special role. It's not like in other FFversion where RDM was nothing special.
RDM deserve new enspells simply because, if we are talking about a possible "increasing to the melee potential" of RDM, wich is the subject of this topic, the first adjustment that should be made are new sword enchantments, they are the native melee spells for RDM.
You want to make DRK cast more, you will mainly focus on adding "absorb" spells like they did last year, you want to make a whm DD, you will have to focus mainly on "beneficial status", because they are not DD. Same for RDM, you want to make them melee, before even thinking to add new spells and new beneficial status, you need to give them new enspells, it's a game logic, it's how it should work. And that is what I meant when I said they "deserve" it.
I would like you to tell me your definition of "true" fighter mage, because if you think that because RDM "can" stay backline means he's not a "true" fighter-mage, I'll suggest you to stop comparing RDM to blue mage. RDM is a fighter-mage.
And no RDM is "not" that flexible. If he was flexible we would see him participating in melee situation a little bit more, and switch to the backlines when the situation require him to the backlines. Now in FFXI RDM can't bring any benefit to the frontlines, that is why people ask them to stick to the backlines, wich reduce their opportunities to move to the frontlines. The goal of this update is to increase their chances to move to the frontlines, now we'll say that RDM is flexible. When people say that RDM is flexible, it's funny because they only visualise their backline abilities.
Between I was comparing the Mystic Knight and the RDM in term of the melee style: sword enchantements. I know that Mystic Knight was more a DD.

[Fridell]

Wow this thread is still goign strong and has turned into SCH vs WHM discussion


SCH/RDM shouldn't replace WHM in Salvage, Stoneskinga + phalanxga is overrated and only really work on 1f. Inability to perform weaponskill negates the benefit of enspell. In zones where JA and SJ cells are rare, it's really not worth giving those cells to SCH first since most experienced salvage group only spend limited time on 1f.

The biggest problem with SCH/RDM in salvage is lack of curaga spells. 1min curaga/status curaga is not going to keep up with gear TP spam. Another thing I find it extremely annoying is the fact that SCH will have to activate certain job ability before they can actually gain the benefit. Few second delay can mean life or death in salvage.

Sublimation is also overrated in salvage. SCH need HP and at least head cells to gain full benefit (on top of JA cell). The 40mp saved by RDM to cast refresh on SCH is now used to cast haste on 2nd tank, which is limited by haste recast. It's just way more convenient to have RDM and WHM share haste duty.

Hybrid job will never replace highly specialised job in events that really matter. Any mage job with decent mp pool and access to cure 3 can main heal in Limbus. RDM would have been a worthless job if SE hadn't added refresh/haste/convert and bumped its enfeebling magic to A-. The same reason why COR can't replace BRD in melee zerg party. RDM is only a overpowered job if you have the gear/merit/skill to make it happen. SE do not nerf RDM because there are tons of RDM in this game and only very few have the right skill/gear to solo tough NM or play RDM tank.

This is exactly how I think and feel ! I like you.

[Ahlah]

Finally someone actually know what I am talking about. At least there are still some intelligent players in this forum.

Yugl I try to reason with you in a civilised way. You keep saying SCH is better than WHM because of aoe status cure and "superior" mp management. Please give me an example why I should give up ShellraV/RaiseIII/curaga/CureV/haste for 1min aoe status cure? Ppl keep sayin SCH can manage their mp better. The fact is they completely ignore the benefit of higher tier curaga/regen, WHM gears that grant cure potency and WHM merit that greatly enhance their healing power. WHM/SCH also have access to 10% mp reduction and sublimation. You will understand why WHM/SCH is still the best healer in in those events you just mentioned if you can see pass the mediocre 1min aoe status cure. Ppl who level SCH to replace their WHM in Einherjar/Limbus/Dynamis will soon realise they are wasting their time.

I am not saying SCH is a bad job. It's just another hybrid job that SE designed for players who just want a mage job that can handle both offensive and defensive roles in low man event - ppl who find healing extremely boring and solo unbearable. If RDM can't replace WHM in FFXI, no way SCH will ever be able to.

To Lishje:
I hope you quote the lol BST who claimed he can hit Tiamat when she is in the air. I don't even bother to check your link, I don't have to hide anything I have said on Alla BST forum, I only wish there are intelligent players who have the IQ to understand what I have posted on that forum.

[Berdysh]

WHM/SCH is still a better tank healer than SCH for Odin, Omega and Ultima. I wouldn't replace all of my WHMs with SCHs in Tier I - III Einherjar either, because WHM/SCH supplies haste and is better suited toward keeping your main assists (usually your top DD) standing. SCH has obvious strengths, that have been stated over and over again, but I do not think the majority of the listed events are quality examples of SCH doing what WHM does but better.

I stopped posting because people made reasonable arguments that the game is going in a particular direction that better suits SCH and RDM while leaving WHM out to dry - hence, WHM requiring 'buffs'. That's something I can at least understand, in the case of things like tier I - III ZNMs, Nyzul Isle, Campaign and WoTG content in general. If people think WHM needs a buff to be more generally useful in this newer content, so be it - I'm a WHM slave driver, not a WHM player, so this topic is of less interest to me. If WHM and RDM want a new 'frontline' toy to freshen up the job, give it to them. It's not like stuff like MMM and SCNMs are restrictive to this kind of play, and that seems to be the direction SE is taking with the game for now.

[Blasta]

Id like to hear opinions about how SE should enhance RDM melee instead of listening this SCH vs WHM shit.
(If Enspell, what kind of damage, other effects, consider multi hit weapons)

[Eleidon]

Please give me an example why I should give up ShellraV/RaiseIII/curaga/CureV/haste for 1min aoe status cure

I think you're overselling the benefits of these WHM abilities and underselling Accession and, by extension, SCH.

Accession does not have a strict one minute recast. I'm going to assume you know how the Stratagem system works for a 75 main job SCH and are just glossing it over in a way that abets your position; if you actually aren't aware of the system's workings then I'd suggest you do the appropriate research before continuing this debate.

I'm going to disregard Raise III here, since decreased EXP loss doesn't really have any bearing on WHM's efficiency/effectiveness as a support job.

Regarding Shell V, I'm not going to say that the difference between a fully-merited Shellra V and Shell IV is inconsequential; over the course of a long fight that's certainly not the case. However, Shell IV in conjunction with SCH's unique ability to provide a strong Phalanx can certainly make SCH's magic damage reduction capability roughly equal to, or even better than, a solo Shell V. Let's assume a magic damage source that, before magic defense calculations, deals 700 damage to a tank. A fully-merited Shell V will bring the damage from this source down to ~508 damage, while Shell IV will bring it down to ~547 for a difference of 39 damage, which is still fairly substantial in the long run. However, a SCH with 280 enhancing skill (this is easily achieved with no merits and minimal gear) will produce a Phalanx that shaves off 26 damage (the best possible enhancing magic set will make this 27 without merits), which would bring the discrepancy between the SCH's damage mitigation and the WHM's to 13 - a much more manageable number. Of course, this also makes the generous assumption that the tank in this situation has absolutely no MDB/MDR gear - adding these elements (hello, Aegis PLDs!) can easily narrow the gap and give Shell IV+Phalanx the edge, and Shell IV+Phalanx is even better with more common magic damage numbers.

AoE curing can obviously be done by SCH as well, and since Accession is considerably more flexible than you might have us believe, I don't think it's incredibly difficult to envision a competent SCH being able to keep Phalanx on his or her tanks while using Accession to generate AoE Cures and status removals in most situations. Additionally, the rough WHM Curaga equivalents of SCH's Accession Cures (i.e., Acc. Cure IV/Curaga III) cast considerably faster, even when one takes the time consumed by Accession's JA animation, which is minimal - the animation doesn't need to finish before the spell can be cast, and can even be circumvented entirely with a simple gearswap.

Haste is obviously SCH's biggest disadvantage when directly compared with WHM, but the fact is that in the HNM/alliance-based situations you're citing, a RDM will undoubtedly be present to cover this.

Final note: Although it should go without saying, a SCH doesn't have to AoE its status removals. SCH can single-cast status removals just as easily as WHM. I'm also not saying that SCH is the clear, all-around winner because shit is, of course, situational - for example, WHM does have an undeniable advantage where Regen efficiency is concerned. Ultimately, I think that boiling SCH's unique benefits down to Accession status cures is a gross oversimplification, and that in a properly-balanced backline, SCH has a lot more to offer than you give it credit for.

[Ahlah]

I assume most ppl reading this forum should understand the the mechanism behind Stratagem. It's like saying 1min SMN BP and most ppl should know there are ways to cut it down further.

I am missing something from the latest update, Accession + status cure is overrated. In most events the only person that needs urgent attention after aoe status TP move is the tank and it has to be removed immediately, there is no time to fool around with JA which takes another 1-2 sec to activate (salvage is the perfect example). It's not uncommon for mobs to inflict back to back aoe status ailments which completely defeat the purpose of accession.

The biggest problem with SCH is the job is highly limited by stratagem charge. Curaga/phalanxga/stoneksinga/aoe status cure all require charge to perform. Why should I bring a SCH to do AOE ShellIV + phalanxga (which need to be replenished regularly) when a WHM can easily put ShellraV on tank which last much longer? Taking away the benefit of aoe status cure (which is mediocre as stated above), SCH is nothing but a weaker version of WHM.

Again a lot of endgame HNM fight requires element resistance build, another WHM specialty which can't be replaced by any mage job in this game.

It's simple logic (lol I use this phrase alot), try to think of an important battle where SCH will outperform WHM because of aoe status cure, may be you will understand why WHM is still the preferred healers in any vital fight that matters.

[Ziero]

First, RDM master enfeebling and enhancing magic, and sword enchantements(wich need to be developped by SE, it's the part that have been left out since that job exist) that "master of none" title was good for old FF games, it's not working for RDM in FFXI. Call them jack of all trade if you want, but not master of none, in FFXI each jobs master something and have a special role. It's not like in other FFversion where RDM was nothing special.

I'll give Rdm the "master of enfeebling" title, but master of enhancing goes to Brd easy. And FYI, before Rdm got the buffs and enfeebling skill that makes them so popular today, and thus the massive buff/enfeeble cycle that keeps them so busy, they had nothing but En-spells. And people wanted nothing to do with them. Think about that.

RDM deserve new enspells simply because, if we are talking about a possible "increasing to the melee potential" of RDM, wich is the subject of this topic, the first adjustment that should be made are new sword enchantments, they are the native melee spells for RDM.
You want to make DRK cast more, you will mainly focus on adding "absorb" spells like they did last year, you want to make a whm DD, you will have to focus mainly on "beneficial status", because they are not DD. Same for RDM, you want to make them melee, before even thinking to add new spells and new beneficial status, you need to give them new enspells, it's a game logic, it's how it should work. And that is what I meant when I said they "deserve" it.

Why do they "deserve" a melee update in the first place? Any boost to melee will just be a shiney new toy that won't fix anything "wrong" with the job, so why do they "deserve" it when jobs that actually need to melee deserve it more?

I would like you to tell me your definition of "true" fighter mage, because if you think that because RDM "can" stay backline means he's not a "true" fighter-mage, I'll suggest you to stop comparing RDM to blue mage. RDM is a fighter-mage.

A "fighter-mage" is a job who's spell strength is directly related to their melee strength. Rdms are pretty much the exact opposite of that. Whm can melee almost as well as Rdm can, but are they considered "fighter-mages"? Drks and Plds can and do cast spells constantly through-out a fight, are they fighter mages? Or are they just jobs who can melee and cast spells?

And no RDM is "not" that flexible. If he was flexible we would see him participating in melee situation a little bit more, and switch to the backlines when the situation require him to the backlines. Now in FFXI RDM can't bring any benefit to the frontlines, that is why people ask them to stick to the backlines, wich reduce their opportunities to move to the frontlines. The goal of this update is to increase their chances to move to the frontlines, now we'll say that RDM is flexible. When people say that RDM is flexible, it's funny because they only visualise their backline abilities.

At one event, the Rdm can be main healing, at another, the Rdm could be nuking and enfeebling, at another event the Rdm could be the main freaking tank and at another event the Rdm can be beating the crap out of mobs with a sword. If that's not flexible I don't know what is. I know Rdm can melee, I've seen Rdms melee, hell I've even told Rdms to melee at certain events. You want to see "unflexible" then look at War. A job that was supposed to be as strong of a tank as it is a DD. Now the only things War can tank are mobs that damn near every other melee job can tank as well or better. Rdm is flexible as hell, and if you're stuck in the backline constantly, maybe you should find something new to do.

[The Blackrose]

Wait a second, people are seriously saying SCH can replace WHM?

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...67/LOLWUT5.jpg

Let's back up this train before we send it off the edge of a cliff.

For starters, certain events need to be eliminated from this debate. People can do Nyzul with no WHMs or SCHs, so how that place managed to get brought up at all is a bit of a mind fuck.

Why is Raise 2 vs. Raise 3 being aired when Reraise is the better solution, period. No need to put additional strain on your support.

-na series sans Stona can be cast by nearly anybody under the sun (SCH and WHM are still the only two jobs with access to Stona). Accession can be used to efficiently eliminate status effects all at once (provided you're using gear swapping to cancel the animation lock), but you will run into the issue of hitting maximum strategems consumed relatively fast depending on the fight (for example, Cerberus being a spammy bastard with Ululation).

SCH, at best, is a secondary healer. Working in tandem with a WHM benefits an entire party in terms of damage prevention, MP conservation, etc. Why are we arguing Shell 4 and Phalanx vs Shell 5 when you can have your cake and eat it? Their abilities are complimentary, not something to be solely judged in a stand-alone matter stacked against one another. God knows how many Salvage runs (assuming I'm not allowed to cut loose and nuke everyone under the sun), HNMs, Omegas/Ultimas and Dynamis I have co-cured with a WHM and things have turned out fine.

[Yugl]

Yugl I try to reason with you in a civilised way. You keep saying SCH is better than WHM because of aoe status cure and "superior" mp management. Please give me an example why I should give up ShellraV/RaiseIII/curaga/CureV/haste for 1min aoe status cure?

Alright lets examine the events I mentioned and how each of those spells compare to AoE -na spells.

Limbus - I'll agree that on Ultima it's probably in favor of WHM even though as mentioned earlier, a Phalanx + Shell IV combo is pretty close. On omega however, lets look at each spell:

Shellra V - On Omega really doesn't make much of a difference for his attacks. It's much more beneficial to have AoE -na spells since tanks unable to get their shadows up immediately can find themselves in trouble. Yes a WHM can do this, but a SCH is much more efficient. Especially when multiple people (not just tanks) are hit by the conal attack.

Raise III - Tell people to keep their buffers up. If there's a problem with XP it's either because people aren't keeping their buffs up, or it's an extended battle where people are wiping (And the whole point of healing is to prevent wipes). As a result, I won't speak on this spells for the remainder of this post.

Curaga - A SCH is capable of performing Curaga of sorts as well. I don't see this being a big issue for Omega either.

Cure V - It's great, but Cure IV usually covers any sort of healing necessary when facing Omega. Pile Pitch may be the exception, but a PLD should cure himself with IV for hate after that happens.

Haste - I'll give you this one it is pretty good for tanking.

Extra note: AoE -na spells aren't always on a 1min timer if the SCH has charges. I don't ever have an issue where a that is an issue.

Nyzul Isle:

Shellra V - Again, it's really not going to make or break the run.

Curaga - SCH can perform this as well and even boost it with Accession and Rapture.

Cure V - Rapture + Cure IV works just as well for Nyzul, but I never find this to be necessary either.

Haste - It's dependent on the floors and set up you have. If you're packing a lot of DoT instead of WS DMG (Aka not going Mega SAM) it'll probably be beneficial. But then again you have to consider how tight MP can be and how much MP/time you're spending passing out hastes instead of cures.

AoE na + Erase - Great for almost every situation. Boss floors or not you're generally going to encounter/fight mobs with hefty AoE ailments. Not curing these ailments, unlike not having Haste, really can make or break the run. Some examples that come to mind are Soul Flayer AoE Bio (Trust me you do not want a single mage going through all players trying to get this off), Paralyze from Ice spikes (Frequent occurrence), AoE Paralyze/Bind from Chariots, AoE Silence/Gravity from Frogs, AoE Blind from Fafnir, and various AoEs from Marbol type NMs. Also, even though it's not related to AoE-na spells, AoE buffs and Helixes can make Hydra/Cerberus runs much easier.

Einherjar:

It's pretty much the same for each spell as Nyzul Isle with different mobs ailments to deal with. Haste is more important in Einherjar for the NM, but with that much lag and heals going on, it's either difficult or very rare to find a DD hasted throughout the entire event. Furthermore, and this extends to Nyzul as well, all people without RR should be getting R1 anyways. It's important to conserve MP in these situations and taking the time/MP to pass out R2/3 is ridiculous. Not paralynaing fast enough can negate the effects of Haste since it doesn't matter how fast you hit if you get paralyzed for each hit. Cursna for Dahaks (Very important). AoE Erase/Paralyze for Soul flayers. Even on NMs such as T1 Marbol or T3 Cerberus AoE -na spells will play a major role. As I pointed out earlier, the importance of this is accentuated even further when this much lag is going on. It also saves MP since you double the MP cost for 4 melees.

Odin dishes out so many ailments it's ridiculous. Generally we have melees carry Remedies, but for those that forget or simply run out, AoE -na + Erase spells do make a difference. In situations where SCH is strictly there for two tanks, WHM is better, but in cases where they have to take care of multiple members (3+) SCH is much more efficient.

Ppl keep sayin SCH can manage their mp bettter. The fact is they completely ignore the benefit of higher tier curaga/regen,

Accession + Rapture + Cure IV. AoE Regen for only double the MP cost and AoE Phalanx more than makes up for the lack of Regen III in the events described.

WHM gears that grant cure potency and WHM merit that greatly enhance their healing power. WHM/SCH also have access to 10% mp reduction and sublimation. You will understand why WHM/SCH is still the best healer in in those events you just mentioned if you can see pass the mediocre 1min aoe status cure. Ppl who level SCH to replace their WHM in Einherjar/Limbus/Dynamis will soon realise they are wasting their time.

I've tested SCH v WHM in those situations and found SCH to be more efficient at healing (Including Nyzul Isle, which you do not mention). WHM saves MP and time strictly on cures. However, a healer does much more than cure HP, they have to consider ailments as well. Would all the MP WHM conserves through strictly curing match the MP it burns by not having the ability to cure AoE -na spells? You have to consider the MP/time it takes to hit multiple members with -na spells, the MP spent curing because of the time it took to cast -na spells (In the case that Para hits Utsu), and in the worst case, the MP spent raising members because you could not hit them with -na spells fast enough.

I am not saying SCH is a bad job. It's just another hybrid job that SE designed for players who just want a mage job that can handle both offensive and defensive roles in low man event - ppl who find healing extremely boring and solo unbearable. If RDM can't replace WHM in FFXI, no way SCH will ever be able to.

I'll agree that it's a hybrid. I'm juste the events listed, SCH outperforms WHM. Why should that be the case? I think it's a damn insult that WHM have to get a mythic weapon in order to access AoE -na spells.

[LD]

SCH, at best, is a secondary healer. Working in tandem with a WHM benefits an entire party in terms of damage prevention, MP conservation, etc. Why are we arguing Shell 4 and Phalanx vs Shell 5 when you can have your cake and eat it?

Because when you're arguing the superiority of one subject over another, you have to create a scenario that best supports your point to the exclusion of all others. Whether it's the norm or not, you must fervently argue that since it's possible within the laws of the universe, it's valid.


The fact is, who heals doesn't really matter in any way, shape, or form, but for WHM to be good or bad, SCH & RDM have to be better or worse, instead of different.



Fucking Retards.

[Fridell]

As how I see it regarding the SCH vs WHM things in Salvage:
In Salvage, you really want the basic jobs that works with as little things as possible and do it better then other jobs. Jobs that can do abit of all works in Salvage also but the hybrid productions always comes out last in the end for this sort of event just because the other jobs are specialized and best at what they do...
For WHM, Hell, MP and magic and they work for everything in Salvage if you like.

I dont dislike SCH or anything, its a great job, but for other kinds of things, recently I did a SSR with MNK WAR THF RDM SCH BRD and it was way way LESS effective then having our WHM there, same with last AR when we had to use 2 x RDM.

WHM is to me, a safe way to make sure things will work smooth and effective.
SCH seem to work great paired with a WHM for other things like bigger battles though, but I never rely on a SCH + RDM setup for stuff that matters abit more, I've been fine with using SCH for normal healing / buffing purpose in Limbus, Dynamis etc

And the AEO remove debuffs from ppl is bullshit argument that SCH is superior, the time SCH smacks JA macro and toss spell a WHM already removed on the main jobs here (assuming Salvage), but Im not saying I dont like AEO fixeses on ppl, its damn great naturally.

[Lordwafik]

Why does Ahlah shit up threads, why? Go away.

[Ahlah]

I am sorry Wafik, did I step on your tail? Wait a minute! I remember you just secretly toss away all your SCH gear and hide the fact that you level the job for nothing.

Few months ago you were one of the biggest voice behind the whole SCH own WHM in salvage thing. Guess now you are just too chicken to admit defeat?

[Lordwafik]

What the fuck? Where in my post did I mention any of this you dumb shit? You're a paranoid moron trying to put words in my mouth.

Is that line about me throwing away my SCH gear and hiding my SCH away meant to be an exaggeration of some sort? I still post on the SCH topic frequently, still pull it out for events, hell I even made a blog post about it recently, no idea where you're pulling this retardedry out from.

The only thing I mentioned was you shitting up a thread - precisely what you have done. This is not about "Defeat" unless you are making it about defeat, which in your own deluded paranoid head feel free to, but stop shitting up threads.

[arus2001]

Having SCH leveled and always appreciative of a good WHM since my early RDM days, all I can say is some people are grasping too hard at trying to find situations of superiority. I'd rather single target status cures, knowing like at least 1/3 of my party was out of range to begin with, and that upping MP costs and recasts won't do a damn thing about the mob just turning around and doing it all over again in a 4 minute span before I finally get a strat back if I used them all quickly.

I've been of the camp WHM should get AoE status cures or DV on a 1m timer, but shit...

Back to mage melee theorycrafting, I guess?

[Kaeko]

WHM vs. SCH is pretty balanced imo. You can find good situations to use both, or even to take both. SCH does rock in nyzul though. Beat a 56-60 route a couple days ago goofing around with 3 melee and SCH 4 man. You can support really well at good efficiency when the focus is buffs, not cures.

Also to be nitpicky, isn't Regen II technically more efficient that Regen III (pre-merit)?

If you want to argue SCH superiority, you should probably go to a BLM vs. SCH argument.

[Ahlah]

What the fuck? Where in my post did I mention any of this you dumb shit? You're a paranoid moron trying to put words in my mouth.

Is that line about me throwing away my SCH gear and hiding my SCH away meant to be an exaggeration of some sort? I still post on the SCH topic frequently, still pull it out for events, hell I even made a blog post about it recently, no idea where you're pulling this retardedry out from.

The only thing I mentioned was you shitting up a thread - precisely what you have done. This is not about "Defeat" unless you are making it about defeat, which in your own deluded paranoid head feel free to, but stop shitting up threads.

You really need to see a doctor, you seem to forget what you have said in the past rather quickly, sign of early onset dementia perhaps?

How exactly did I shit up this thread? If you think my points are flawed then at least post something insightful. Stop barking if you don't understand things which are beyond your level.