RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Lordwafik]

Sigh, look what we have here, Genome v 2.0. I'm sorry professor ahlah but now you're just trolling.

If you could read my post, which I asked :
Where in my post did I mention any of this?

To which I was replying to :

Wait a minute! I remember you just secretly toss away all your SCH gear and hide the fact that you level the job for nothing.

You tell me where I secretly throw away my SCH gear for a job I levelled for nothing. Please quote it, show me it, prove to me that I throw away my SCH gear.

I was not replying to your statement about me harping on how awesome SCH is for a healing situation, because I do indeed think it is. I am talking about that statement alone. Show me where I said I secretly throw away all my SCH gear because I levelled the job for nothing.

My SCH is quite geared and the armor is in my mog house ready for when the situation arrives.

[SenseiFF11]

A "fighter-mage" is a job who's spell strength is directly related to their melee strength. Rdms are pretty much the exact opposite of that. Whm can melee almost as well as Rdm can, but are they considered "fighter-mages"? Drks and Plds can and do cast spells constantly through-out a fight, are they fighter mages? Or are they just jobs who can melee and cast spells?

RDM and BLU are what you call sword-weilding mage or fightermage, they are 2 differents type of fightermage, don't even try to compare them. You seems to have no experience in any Final Fantasy series also, saying that RDM is not a fighter-mage is like a blasphemy(seriously).
The original combat-mage, or fighter-mage of all Final Fantasy series is RDM. Oh before you come here to tell me that FFXI is different than other FF series, I got a news for you, FFXI jobs are based from: FF1, FFIII and FFV exclusively.
Each incarnation of FFXI jobs, are a little different than other FF series, but the concept remain the same. RDM melee spell strenght are called sword enchantements, and that part have been left for 6 years. It's an uncomplete job, that have been updated for 50% of his abilities, wich were mainly enhancing and enfeebling. Yet when you mention swords enchantements spells in FFXI, people tend to only visualize elemental-enspells. That is sad, because there are plenty enspells type, and my hope is SE will consider them.
A fightermage is not someone that can just fight and cast spell, you are a fightermage when your melee effectiveness is mainly based on magic, that means you rely on magics to show your difference between your melee and others melee. That is the case of BLU and that is the case of RDM and that is what you call: Sword enchantements spells. WHM cannot be considered as a fighter-mage, simply because they have no magic that suppose to make their melee betters. RDM got or I should say was supposed to get those spells, you just don't see those spells for the simple reason I mentionned above.
However, we can say that if SE need to show a difference between RDM SCH and WHM, we can say that WHM have better melee skills than SCH, it doesn't mean they are fighter-mage. At low lvl, a BLM can use his staff in party and touch the mob, doesn't mean he's a fighter-mage, he got no "magic designed exeptionnally for melee".

Little SE interview for you: There are many Final Fantasy games and stories, how does Final Fantasy XI fit in the entire scheme of things?

Hiromichi Tanaka: Final Fantasy XI is really based on FFI and draws its job system from FFIII and FFV as well. It’s the most “On it” and we think that as an MMO, it is a living game and we are able to keep it best in keeping with the Final Fantasy world and myths.

At one event, the Rdm can be main healing, at another, the Rdm could be nuking and enfeebling, at another event the Rdm could be the main freaking tank and at another event the Rdm can be beating the crap out of mobs with a sword. If that's not flexible I don't know what is. I know Rdm can melee, I've seen Rdms melee, hell I've even told Rdms to melee at certain events. You want to see "unflexible" then look at War. A job that was supposed to be as strong of a tank as it is a DD. Now the only things War can tank are mobs that damn near every other melee job can tank as well or better. Rdm is flexible as hell, and if you're stuck in the backline constantly, maybe you should find something new to do.

RDM "most" of the times will stand backlines, 95% of the times. You will have yet to find an open minded ls to let RDM TANK nowodays, and RDM tank is different than "rdm beating the crap with sword", cause of too low accuracy. Everybody knows that, RDM mainly are stucked backlines, if you come here trying to say it's false I would love you to tell me your endgame experience and even your tanking experience, because you just talk to talk. And search all around VanaDiel and tell me how many ls's that will let RDM tank like they let him stuck to the backlines, you will not find many. RDM tank is good, and I know what I'm talking about, but it's not used that much in the game! and that is a damn fact. At least SE realised that, that make me happy. RDM have very low opportunities to move to the frontlines, that is a fact. And since that is fact, that means he need an update, that's my point. Don't come telling me RDM can beat monsters with swords and tank, I know that, that's not the point, you are out of topic. The point is he have very low chance to move to the frontlines, simply because people don't see the advantage to bring a RDM to the front. Enspells tier II can show people an advantage, especially if they deal more DMG and reduce the target magic evasion, that added to Death Blossom will be perfect.
So you see, my goal here is to find what people "want" or I should say "need" RDM to have, to let the RDM's move to the frontlines more.
Because SE need to give something special that a RDM can bring to the front, and if they want WHM to melee they need to do the same. People need to see a real advantage of RDM melee, and that is not the case in FFXI. Sword enchantments was supposed to show that rdm melee advantage!, but again they waited 6 years, and now they suddenly decide to do something. I hope they will consider new sword enchantements spells, that is what define RDM melee!, and thats what make him a fighter-mage.

[Blasta]

How exactly did I shit up this thread? If you think my points are flawed then at least post something insightful. Stop barking if you don't understand things which are beyond your level.

You shit up this thread by pressing that Post Reply everytime you want to correct something, you should leave it because every other post is written by you. Save yourself some typing and let people write what this thread is really about. Use private messages to solve your "I want to be right even though i get nothing out of it" problem.

[Ahlah]

Excuse me, did I step on your tail too? This is a public forum where ppl are supposed to discuss FFXI related issues. If you have no useful information to share with other ppl then at least keep your mouth shut. Point out what I have done that actually shit up this thread.

I have no time for idiot or narrow minded ppl in this game whose brain are too small to accommodate complex concept. Before you start barking check the thread again. Ppl don't get nasty comment from me unless they start the fight first.

[Shinta]

The bottom line is that of all the adjustments hinted at by SE, this is by far the most mysterious and the most difficult to predict. I can't think of any reason they would focus on helping WHMs melee except for the fact that they were going to do something for RDM and decided to just add WHM to it. We'll see what happens, but there's alot left to adjust before it could really work. I will remain pessimistic and skeptical until March, then, I'll just be disappointed.

[Blasta]

Excuse me, did I step on your tail too? This is a public forum where ppl are supposed to discuss FFXI related issues. If you have no useful information to share with other ppl then at least keep your mouth shut. Point out what I have done that actually shit up this thread.

I have no time for idiot or narrow minded ppl in this game whose brain are too small to accommodate complex concept. Before you start barking check the thread again. Ppl don't get nasty comment from me unless they start the fight first.

Yes public forum but wrong thread and i didn't say anything bad about you. Instead i recommend you make a thread where you can keep fighting about your SCH/WHM thing. Also calling me idiot/narrow minded man for pointing that you might want to use private messages.

[Septimus]

WHM vs. SCH is pretty balanced imo. You can find good situations to use both, or even to take both. SCH does rock in nyzul though. Beat a 56-60 route a couple days ago goofing around with 3 melee and SCH 4 man. You can support really well at good efficiency when the focus is buffs, not cures.

Also to be nitpicky, isn't Regen II technically more efficient that Regen III (pre-merit)?

If you want to argue SCH superiority, you should probably go to a BLM vs. SCH argument.

I read your livejournal post for SCH magical accuracy and what not yesterday. It really makes me want to finish leveling up SCH on my Galka. I'm generally don't like Nukey jobs, but that journal entry made me want to have a nuking Galka.

As for Regens, here is a little simple math.

No merits

Regen I- 125 HP over 75 seconds for 15 MP- 8.33 HP/MP
Regen II- 240 HP over 60 seconds for 36 MP- 6.67 HP/MP
Regen III- 400 MP over 60 seconds for 64 MP- 6.25 HP/MP

Merits and Cleric's Briualt

Regen I- 275 HP over 75 seconds for 15 MP- 18.33 HP/MP
Regen II- 380 HP over 60 seconds for 36 MP- 10.56 HP/MP
Regen III- 560 HP over 60 seconds for 64 MP- 8.75 HP/MP

Moral of the story, Regen merits are some combination of delicious and godly.

[Shinta]

I read your livejournal post for SCH magical accuracy and what not yesterday. It really makes me want to finish leveling up SCH on my Galka. I'm generally don't like Nukey jobs, but that journal entry made me want to have a nuking Galka.

As for Regens, here is a little simple math.

No merits

Regen I- 125 HP over 75 seconds for 15 MP- 8.33 HP/MP
Regen II- 240 HP over 60 seconds for 36 MP- 6.67 HP/MP
Regen III- 400 MP over 60 seconds for 64 MP- 6.25 HP/MP

Merits and Cleric's Briualt

Regen I- 275 HP over 75 seconds for 15 MP- 18.33 HP/MP
Regen II- 380 HP over 60 seconds for 36 MP- 10.56 HP/MP
Regen III- 560 HP over 60 seconds for 64 MP- 8.75 HP/MP

Moral of the story, Regen merits are some combination of delicious and godly.

They certainly are, but the other moral of the story is that so are Barspell merits, and so are Cure Cast Time merits. I'm fully merited and I don't have any Regen merits on WHM. Believe me, I wish I did. Hell, I want the Banish merits too. WHM is cursed with really great options for merits, it's impossible to get them all and assuming that all WHMs have Regen merits is not a safe assumption.

Also, just out of curiosity, I'd like to see an Accession Regen I and Regen II list to compare. That's so broken.

[Kaeko]

They certainly are, but the other moral of the story is that so are Barspell merits, and so are Cure Cast Time merits. I'm fully merited and I don't have any Regen merits on WHM. Believe me, I wish I did. Hell, I want the Banish merits too. WHM is cursed with really great options for merits, it's impossible to get them all and assuming that all WHMs have Regen merits is not a safe assumption.

Also, just out of curiosity, I'd like to see an Accession Regen I and Regen II list to compare. That's so broken.

Yea my issue here is do most WHM even go Regen merits? If you don't, then the table Septimus laid out suggests Regen III is less efficient than Regen II. You do get more HP/tick on Regen III but it's still fairly good. I guess it comes down to merit choice.

[Shinta]

WHM vs. SCH is pretty balanced imo. You can find good situations to use both, or even to take both. SCH does rock in nyzul though. Beat a 56-60 route a couple days ago goofing around with 3 melee and SCH 4 man. You can support really well at good efficiency when the focus is buffs, not cures.

Also to be nitpicky, isn't Regen II technically more efficient that Regen III (pre-merit)?

If you want to argue SCH superiority, you should probably go to a BLM vs. SCH argument.

Also, just looking back at that quote, even if WHM and SCH are balanced perfectly, then it is imbalanced because we are comparing WHM to half of SCH. As I've heard you say many times before, you can't just compare SCH to one job. The fact that it beats BLM completely, while being almost tied with WHM (and frankly, clearly surpassing it in the buffs and AoE status cure category) shows how unbalanced it is.

WHM can only do half of what a SCH does. BLM can only do half of what a SCH does. BLM is behind even on that half (as you illustrated quite well on your blog), the argument varies on whether WHM is ahead, behind or tied depending on the event on their half. In addition to this, SCH has many things unique to them. That is called seriously unbalanced.

[Ahlah]

Also to be nitpicky, isn't Regen II technically more efficient that Regen III (pre-merit)?

Actually Regen III doesn't work that way. It may recover less hp per mp cost but it heals more over the same period of time. Regen III basically allows WHM to cast a low cost hate free version of Cure IV every 1 min. In standard endgame HNM fight, the small mp cost isn't that important. Being able to throw in hate free cure has more significant impact in long battle.

Regen III also have other practical uses. It helps to counter Brainjack DOT effect when tanks are charmed by LAC. When I play WHM in AR, I usually put Regen III on main MNK tank which keep him in white HP so that he can pull qutrub and skele and allows me to rest for mp. It's also an excellent spell to keep your PLD HP up to activate Parade Gorget's latent effect.

Accession + Regen II is highly situation, esp. in tank party when typically only the tanks take damage regularly, which can be easily taken care of with Regen III.

[Nirokun!]

Yea my issue here is do most WHM even go Regen merits? If you don't, then the table Septimus laid out suggests Regen III is less efficient than Regen II. You do get more HP/tick on Regen III but it's still fairly good. I guess it comes down to merit choice.

People like their cure cast merits But I LOVE my regen merits (first thing i merited when merits came out.) Its like my little buddy that I cast, that spams little cures while I do other things, I <3 Regen. I find myself just hasting and casting regen1 over and over, otherwise casting curaga/curagaII, or cureV~

[Izzy]

People like their cure cast merits But I LOVE my regen merits (first thing i merited when merits came out.) Its like my little buddy that I cast, that spams little cures while I do other things, I <3 Regen. I find myself just hasting and casting regen1 over and over, otherwise casting curaga/curagaII, or cureV~

I'm the same way. I love throwing a regen on someone during Nyzul and then just forgetting about them lol.

[LD]

The Regen series also has the same enmity across the board, so while Regen 3 is the least MP efficient, it's the most enmity efficient.

I could just as easily say not using Regen 2-ga is situational.

[Nirokun!]

I'm the same way. I love throwing a regen on someone during Nyzul and then just forgetting about them lol.

omg i do that too :D

Our group has (generally) whm brd drk sam thf war, everyone generally stays together, except kuno (drk) likes to run off by himself sometimes. So, the sam (amanosam) always has hate, so i like to haste the sam war thf, throw regen3 on the sam, then run back (assuming i know where kuno is) and cure5 him because he likes to be adventurous. Then he runs out of range of my haste, and i promptly remember why i dont tag along with him on his solos x)

[Day]

You guys are lying no one uses regen

[Nirokun!]

/ma regen day

[drwaffles]

I love Regen, but I didn't merit it because there is rarely any point in using it for HNM fights, especially with the current dominance of PLD tanks. Sometimes I'll use it to heal, say, a BRD or a RDM who has taken some damage, but more often than not someone else or they themselves will Cure their HP back to full, essentially wasting my MP. For stuff like Nyzul, merits or low-manning I swear I barely cast Cures at all, though.

[Rocl]

IT IS OF NO SURPRISE YOU ALL USE REGEN AS YOUR PRIMARY METHOD OF CURING, YOU'RE ALL TARUS

Real races need good old fashioned cures, we have more than 3 HP

[Ziero]

RDM and BLU are what you call sword-weilding mage or fightermage, they are 2 differents type of fightermage, don't even try to compare them. You seems to have no experience in any Final Fantasy series also, saying that RDM is not a fighter-mage is like a blasphemy(seriously).
The original combat-mage, or fighter-mage of all Final Fantasy series is RDM. Oh before you come here to tell me that FFXI is different than other FF series, I got a news for you, FFXI jobs are based from: FF1, FFIII and FFV exclusively.

...in FFXI Rdms are support first and foremost and "fighter-mages" in a distant second. It doesn't matter what other FFs were like or what FFs that FFXI's jobs were "based" off. In this game, right now, things are completely different. In previous FFs thfs could do nothing special but steal, Blus used spears and forks and Whms could equip the best sword in game. So if your only reasoning to have Rdms be "fighter-mages" is that "it was like that before!" then your only reason fails. This game needs FAR more job balance within the jobs then any previous FF game before it. And part of that balance is that Rdm's melee skills are lackluster when compared to real melee jobs.

...and you were the first one to bring Blu into this discussion.

Each incarnation of FFXI jobs, are a little different than other FF series, but the concept remain the same. RDM melee spell strenght are called sword enchantements, and that part have been left for 6 years. It's an uncomplete job, that have been updated for 50% of his abilities, wich were mainly enhancing and enfeebling...*snip*...

Again, I ask: Rdm gets tier 2 en-spells that do up to 50-60 dmg a swing unresisted and an A ranked sword skill. What situations would you suddenly be able to melee in? Just giving them tier II en-spells won't do anything to suddenly bring them into the front lines for fights they can't already front line.

Little SE interview for you: There are many Final Fantasy games and stories, how does Final Fantasy XI fit in the entire scheme of things?

Hiromichi Tanaka: Final Fantasy XI is really based on FFI and draws its job system from FFIII and FFV as well. It’s the most “On it” and we think that as an MMO, it is a living game and we are able to keep it best in keeping with the Final Fantasy world and myths.

Yes...the job system, as in those are the only sequential Final Fantasy titles where you can actively pick and choose a job for your character. Every other FF game had characters with job abilities, but not specifically chosen jobs. The jobs themselves change every game.

So you see, my goal here is to find what people "want" or I should say "need" RDM to have, to let the RDM's move to the frontlines more.
Because SE need to give something special that a RDM can bring to the front, and if they want WHM to melee they need to do the same. People need to see a real advantage of RDM melee, and that is not the case in FFXI. Sword enchantments was supposed to show that rdm melee advantage!, but again they waited 6 years, and now they suddenly decide to do something. I hope they will consider new sword enchantements spells, that is what define RDM melee!, and thats what make him a fighter-mage.

The thing people "want" to make Rdm to move to the frontlines for every event in this game is a complete overpowering and overhaul of the job. There are plenty of places Rdms can and do melee in, but that's not enough for most Melee happy Rdms. It has to be all or nothing, and that's just not going to happen. You keep hoping for new Enspells, but what will that fix? HNMs will still be too strong for Rdms to melee, TP burn mobs will still die too fast for Rdm to melee and every other situation will stay exactly the same. New En-spells would be a nice toy, and I wouldn't complain if they got them, but they will not suddenly turn Rdms into this full time, front line melee god you seem to think they're going to be.

And p.s. SE's last idea to bring Whms "to the front lines" was Devotion and Martyr's short targeting range.