RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Ziero]

Oh I did read myself and know what? I'll make you read it too. Read carefully.

Here is what I always said about RDM melee: Blue mage is a BLM-frontline. DCN is a WHM-frontline, RDM could be what SCH is to the backlines. That means he could get enhancing magic that will enhance his combat skills for a period of time, same like SCH is doing with grimoires.(They have D skills in all school of magic without grimoire).

Oh look, there you are making comparisons with Blu, Rdm...and for some reason Sch...LONG BEFORE ANYONE ELSE.

When I talked about RDM and BLU it was not to say that those 2 jobs have the same abilities, I said clearly that those 2 jobs shouldn't be "compared that way". I said if we stick to the fact that those 2 jobs are what you call a fighter-mage in FFXI, and that is a fact for all RDM's, unless that RDM don't know his job design, there is no reason to explain why a BLU got more sword skill than RDM.(Read again, cause I did not said that BLU should not get a A- sword, I said RDM should get what BLU got or even more). In fact a RDM should have more sword skills that blu mage. Why? If you know the RDM storyline it shouldn't even be a question to ask.

Many of Blue Mages spells are directly linked to their current TP and Str stats. None of Rdms spells are directly linked to any offensive stat what so ever. There, a perfectly good reason for Blu to have higher sword skill then Rdm.

There is a reason why the RDM AF2 are called "Duelist"....

oh god...you didn't...no, ou did...I can't believe you're actually using that argument. Do you know what the word "Duelist" means? Little hint, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SWORDS. People can Duel with knives, guns, Jets, Banjos, words, even playing cards! Hell, with your logic it means Rdm should get Guns and Cards just like Cor too since those are things you can duel with! I mean you already suggested that Rdm get Dnc abilities, do why not take Cor's abilities too?

A Duelist is someone who fights in duels and a duel is "any struggle between two skillful opponents (individuals or groups)". And if I'm not mistaken, one of Rdm's greatest abilities in this game is it's ability to solo numerous incredibly strong monsters...a one on one fight to the death! Sounds like a Duel to me.

And on the subject of AF, lets look at their original set...the Warlock set. Do you know what a Warlock is? It's a Male witch. It's a man that uses magic. Guess only guys can be Rdm according to your logic, and on top of that they should only use magic too!

Maybe you can't make the difference between backline and mage? You think because RDM "can" be effective to the backlines means he's a less figther and more mage?

It's the fact that a Rdm's magic skills far outweigh it's melee skills that make it more of a mage then it is a fighter.

Oh yes COR and RNG are mages and not fighter I guess? Or you'll use the excuse of MP to not include COR and RNG as mage?

Do Cor and Rng have magic skills?

You need to make the difference between backline and mage seriously, cause your argumentation is all messed up, you are confused about what is "fighter-mage".

A "fighter mage" is a job who's magic Dmg is entirely dependent on it's melee abilities....like Blu.

omg. You still don't get the point of this thread do you? You say that RDM in FFXI is more support job, and figthter-mage in a distant second. Well that is the goal of this update! to make them more fighter-mage! You are not telling us anything new!.

The point of this thread was to discuss SE's interview. The "goal" of this update is to attempt to help them melee better, supposedly. It doesn't mean they're suddenly going to be meleeing anything new, it just means they can melee things they already hit a little bit better.

You think that the concept of RDM in FFXI is different than the concept of RDM in other FF versions? If that's what you think I would love to know what series of FF you played. The concept is the same, they were meant to be the same, only difference is in FFXI SE waited too much times to release that second part of RDM! when are you going to realise that?

In every other FF game, Rdm has had a mix of Magic and Melee, but never were any of it's abilities superior to the other or of pure magic/melee jobs. In FFXI, Rdm started out that way with lesser ranked Black Magic, White Magic and combat skills, hell they even had en-spells to try and give them a unique way to melee! But no one wanted them. In offline RPGs, having a single member being able to do a little of everything as well as those who just do one thing is an asset. In an MMO, it's a weakness. Without a specific niche to fill, a set roll you can excel at, there will be no reason to invite the job. Why do you think Pups get laughed at?

[ronin sparthos]

oh god...you didn't...no, ou did...I can't believe you're actually using that argument. Do you know what the word "Duelist" means? Little hint, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SWORDS. People can Duel with knives, guns, Jets, Banjos, words, even playing cards!

Bolded: Made me laugh.

[The Blackrose]

My hair is telling me that this argument has gone off the deep end.

[SenseiFF11]

Oh look, there you are making comparisons with Blu, Rdm...and for some reason Sch...LONG BEFORE ANYONE ELSE.



Many of Blue Mages spells are directly linked to their current TP and Str stats. None of Rdms spells are directly linked to any offensive stat what so ever. There, a perfectly good reason for Blu to have higher sword skill then Rdm.



oh god...you didn't...no, ou did...I can't believe you're actually using that argument. Do you know what the word "Duelist" means? Little hint, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SWORDS. People can Duel with knives, guns, Jets, Banjos, words, even playing cards! Hell, with your logic it means Rdm should get Guns and Cards just like Cor too since those are things you can duel with! I mean you already suggested that Rdm get Dnc abilities, do why not take Cor's abilities too?

A Duelist is someone who fights in duels and a duel is "any struggle between two skillful opponents (individuals or groups)". And if I'm not mistaken, one of Rdm's greatest abilities in this game is it's ability to solo numerous incredibly strong monsters...a one on one fight to the death! Sounds like a Duel to me.

And on the subject of AF, lets look at their original set...the Warlock set. Do you know what a Warlock is? It's a Male witch. It's a man that uses magic. Guess only guys can be Rdm according to your logic, and on top of that they should only use magic too!



It's the fact that a Rdm's magic skills far outweigh it's melee skills that make it more of a mage then it is a fighter.



Do Cor and Rng have magic skills?



A "fighter mage" is a job who's magic Dmg is entirely dependent on it's melee abilities....like Blu.



The point of this thread was to discuss SE's interview. The "goal" of this update is to attempt to help them melee better, supposedly. It doesn't mean they're suddenly going to be meleeing anything new, it just means they can melee things they already hit a little bit better.



In every other FF game, Rdm has had a mix of Magic and Melee, but never were any of it's abilities superior to the other or of pure magic/melee jobs. In FFXI, Rdm started out that way with lesser ranked Black Magic, White Magic and combat skills, hell they even had en-spells to try and give them a unique way to melee! But no one wanted them. In offline RPGs, having a single member being able to do a little of everything as well as those who just do one thing is an asset. In an MMO, it's a weakness. Without a specific niche to fill, a set roll you can excel at, there will be no reason to invite the job. Why do you think Pups get laughed at?

You are definatly an idiot. If duelist was just to meant someone that "duel", they wouldn't be put on RDM AF only(use your brain and think about it, because you just showed how illogic and stupid your argumentation can be). There is a "specific" reason why those RDM AF2 are called "Duelist", and I was pointing "that specific reason". Your lack of knowledge of the origin of the words, and incompetence vis-a-vis how to bring evidences into an argumentation make me not want to argue with you. Search more about the origins of the word "Duelist", cause it's not someone that "duel".

Oh look when the troll can't defend his contradictions he just makes up more. You said they were fighter-mages and now you're saying they're just mages. Make up your mind.



A class that relies on MP related spells to perform its a role.



Oh really? No shit dumbass.



Are all members in the back using MP related spells? No. Are you a moron arguing semantics where it doesn't matter? Yes.



No it's not because he "can" be effective, it's because he's *more* effective. A SCH could DD with Staff, but it doesn't do so because it's more effective to sit back and use spells.



Do they need MP to DD/Throw Buffs? No.



No you didn't say that RDM needs an update because it is more backline, you said this:



Maybe you're the one who can't distinguish between Sword-Wielding mage and frontline/backline roles.



So BLU doesn't rely on it's weapon more than RDM?



This thread had a point? If it did you would find it in the original post. Oh wait the OP disagrees with you and says that RDM does *not* need sword updates. You're just as clueless about this game as SE aren't you? All you care about is following some stupid storyline without thinking about the issues that arise when making updates. Let me guess, if the storyline said Absolute Virtue is an untouched legendary monster incapable of being beaten, you would say its working as intended (As of now).



Notice I was pointing out other issues that arise even if Enspells and Accuracy bonuses were included. Maybe you're the one who needs to read.



There isn't a reason why BLU shouldn't have higher sword skill either. There is nothing in the definition of fighter-mage that says *every* fighter-mage has the same sword skill. BST, SMN, DRG, and PUP are pet classes. Does that mean their pets should have the same skills? If so, you're more retarded that I imagine.



Oh here we go again with the dumbass storyline backups. By your logic BLU should be capable of turning into Flayers. Do we? No. Would it be a good idea? Fuck no. Screw your storyline. There's no reason for a BLU not to have higher sword skill than RDM if you consider the fact that we hang donuts from our ears. Is this really the type of logic that you use to make adjustments? It sounds like something I find off Alla where someone says "Hey guys lets have DRG pets turn into a wyvern just like in the storyline".

Storylines, "Titles", and previous FFs are *not* justifications for a class needing an update. Storylines, "Titles", and previous FFs do not prove that increasing RDM's melee ability won't make it broken/change the situations in which it can melee. I absolutely cannot believe how ignorant you are. If I had to guess you're either a troll or Ahlah's second account. In fact, considering how incoherent you are I wouldn't be surprised if it were the later. You both make ridiculous claims to RDM meleeing, insult people for not understanding your twisted logic, and are too intelligent for English.

I said those jobs are 2 mages, BLU and RDM. Now there are different type of mages. BLU is not "more mage" than RDM like you tried to point out. And yes they are the 2 fighter-magesThe type) of the game. But those 2 jobs are mages, RDM is not more mage than BLU!,that was my point.
Between, the Storyline of a job explain "what" that job is. Search more about the RDM undirect update history, and maybe you will perhaps compete with what I knows about Red Mages, because for now, no way I can argue with you.

[SenseiFF11]

And this lolthread is dieing anyway. See you in march eh!.

[Izzy]

Sad that people are still putting "lol" in front of random words...I thought that shit meme ended a while ago.

[Indalecia]

This is why I tell most rdm's to just haste/refresh me and stop thinking from there.

[SenseiFF11]

Sad that people are still putting "lol" in front of random words...I thought that shit meme ended a while ago.

"sad" that people are still using the word "lol"? It really make you sad? Sorry for you. It don't take a lot to make you feel sad eh?
It's sad how people need to focus on stupid things to base their argumentation, hope next time you'll have better things to point out.

[Rocl]

Sad that people are still putting "lol" in front of random words...I thought that shit meme ended a while ago.

Ljollnir

[Tsuki]

I think I just lost a few IQ points by reading this last page... yay fighter mages!

[Sho]

It is quite funny to watch SenseiFF11 say utterly stupid things, however.

[Okan]

This thread had a point? If it did you would find it in the original post. Oh wait the OP disagrees with you and says that RDM does *not* need sword updates. You're just as clueless about this game as SE aren't you? All you care about is following some stupid storyline without thinking about the issues that arise when making updates. Let me guess, if the storyline said Absolute Virtue is an untouched legendary monster incapable of being beaten, you would say its working as intended (As of now).

I got lost around here. I did ignore most of what Sensei was saying though since he never made any sense. Wouldn't a huge majority of this game be to play it for the storyline? And if the story said AV was incapable of being beaten, it would encourage me to beat it -- and then depending on the circumstances I would then relate to it WAI or broken. If it was a BCNM and the story made you fight him and you lose? Working as intended. But it's not like that and you have to go through hell and back to spawn him and then more to kill him.. but you can't. Broken.

If you don't want to play an MMO for it's story, you might as well play any ol' Korean MMO because all those are are mega grind fests. The story is what breaks that mold and gives us that extra bit of fun. Look at iRO expansions versus FFXI. FF has missions, quests, stories.. And at least a long time ago, not sure if it still applies, iRO only had new areas and mobs to kill with very minimal story to the area.

However, Sensei's use of the storyline to make RDM or BLU different then it is is quite asinine. Since I just got back in to the game and have never even played BLU or have any idea about it, I won't go in to that debate though.

On the topic, I really don't think that WHM needs any melee tweaks. All it'll do is be something we use to solo with and well... We'll probably never solo anything more then an extra weak EP mob like a Kuftal crab. If the job did have any tweaks, I'd have to agree that we could use some better MP preservation or better mana regeneration. Or some single target buffs that increase damage or accuracy. Of course it won't be as good as BRD/COR because it's single target, but it is at least something to get us invited in to merit parties. I can't count the amount of times I've been passed over because they're taking a BRD and RDM. The only time I get asked to go to anything is to give out Raise 3s.

Thanks guys.

[SenseiFF11]

It is quite funny to watch SenseiFF11 say utterly stupid things, however.

It's funny to see that each time you log on this thread you don't share your ideas but criticize what people think. Please show me how "not stupid" you are by posting what you think.

[SenseiFF11]

However, Sensei's use of the storyline to make RDM or BLU different then it is is quite asinine. Since I just got back in to the game and have never even played BLU or have any idea about it, I won't go in to that debate though.

I'll tell you 3 things.
1) when I talk about a job storyline it's to know how that job was meant to be in the game, his power and weakness.
2) by knowing this, I concluded that RDM needed a higher sword skill, because he master fencing. (If you say that it's not right, you have a problem).
3) I then concluded that it would be "logical" for SE to increase the RDM sword skills, especially if we check that interview(since the thread is based on!, if we also check the undirect RDM updates in FFXI history it show that the RDM sword skills has been increased bit by bit, and they stopped it in 2003.)

So that is what I said when I talked about the Red Mage storyline.
You don't have to be agree with anyone, and that's the purpose of a forum. But saying that people are stupid because they don't think like you show how immature you are in an argumentation.

[Whaleporn]

It's funny to see that each time you log on this thread you don't share your ideas but criticize what people think. Please show me how "not stupid" you are by posting what you think.

All red mages who are fine with just being one of the most sought after casting jobs, raise their hand.

/

[Ziero]

You are definatly an idiot. If duelist was just to meant someone that "duel", they wouldn't be put on RDM AF only(use your brain and think about it, because you just showed how illogic and stupid your argumentation can be). There is a "specific" reason why those RDM AF2 are called "Duelist", and I was pointing "that specific reason". Your lack of knowledge of the origin of the words, and incompetence vis-a-vis how to bring evidences into an argumentation make me not want to argue with you. Search more about the origins of the word "Duelist", cause it's not someone that "duel".

First off:

define:duelist - Google Search

First definition is literally "dueler: a person who fights duels". A more detailed definition can be found on the Wiki which in it's opening paragraph states "a duel is an engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons in accordance with their combat doctrines." Meaning a variety of weapons can be chosen and used to fight in a Duel. Infact, in an example of an unusual duel they state "After being challenged to a duel, Abraham Lincoln was said to have picked cow dung at ten paces, which prompted his challenger to cancel it." So tell me, since it's apparently possible for Duelists to utilize cow dung as a weapon, does that mean Rdm's new melee spell should be En-Poop?

I said those jobs are 2 mages, BLU and RDM. BLU is not "more mage" than RDM like you tried to point out. And yes they are the 2 fighter-mages of the game. Storyline of a job explain "what" that job is. Search more about the RDM undirect update history, and maybe you will perhaps compete with what I knows about Red Mages, because for now, no way I can argue with you.

Actually, he said Blu is "more melee" then Rdm is, which is true. A Blu's entire effectivness relies on it's abilities to hit the mob with a melee weapon while gaining power from Weapon Acc, Current TP and Str. Rdms spells are all independent of their melee stats, as even En-spells are strengthened not by melee stats but by Enhancing skill...a magical ability. Most of Rdms strongest abilities and spells are enhanced by things like Macc, Mab, Mnd and Int. Meaning that yes, Blu is indeed more of a "Fighter-mage" while Rdm is more of a "Mage who can fight".

Now if you can't accept that, then that's too bad. Because that is the truth. I suggest you stop /raging and step away from the com for a while. Because come March, you're going to be sorely disappointed when Rdms get a simple En-spell II and nothing else changes about them.

Sad that people are still putting "lol" in front of random words...I thought that shit meme ended a while ago.

lolmemes

[Okan]

I'll tell you 3 things.
1) when I talk about a job storyline it's to know how that job was meant to be in the game, his power and weakness.
2) by knowing this, I concluded that RDM needed a higher sword skill, because he master fencing. (If you say that it's not right, you have a problem).
3) I then concluded that it would be "logical" for SE to increase the RDM sword skills, especially if we check that interview(since the thread is based on!, if we also check the undirect RDM updates in FFXI history it show that the RDM sword skills has been increased bit by bit, and they stopped it in 2003.)

So that is what I said when I talked about the Red Mage storyline.
You don't have to be agree with anyone, and that's the purpose of a forum. But saying that people are stupid because they don't think like you show how immature you are in an argumentation.

I'm going to have to agree with the other guys on this. You can't use the storyline to justify a weapon upgrade. If that was the case, imagine all the dancers after that cutscene with that girl fighting the orcs. I'll leave it at that for both spoilers and I'm not that far so I don't know exactly which mission it is.

[Xno Kappa]

You know, once upon a time I use to bitch and complain that RDM was nothing but a Cure/Refresh/Haste whore. Use to hate FFXI over this. Although I acknowledged it was one of the most sought after jobs, it wasn't what I originally thought it would be when compared to past FF's. Then I discovered this wonderful feature in my Mog House called "Change Jobs." Now not only do I have fun with other jobs, I also have an extremely useful mage job leveled.

Moral of the story, SE are going to adjust jobs to however they feel like regardless of what anyone in this thread thinks. So no use in anyone holding their breath for their "ideal" update.

[Dimmauk]

A Blue Mage doesn't "make up" for weapon skills with self-skillchaining- a BLU's damage is almost entierly Physical spells. Most of the time self-skillchaining it a waste because skillchains do not add enough appriciable damage. Being able to go Expiacion -> Vertical Cleve for Darkness is lovely and all, but only because you can try to magic burst MP Drainkiss for more MP to keep your damage going- if that instead made Fragmentation or Distortion no one would care.

The reason BLU is awesome for things like Nyzul Isle is because he/she can shoot out 500-800 damage Disseverments every 30 seconds or so, MP willing. But BLU suffers from several huge limitations/liabilities that cripples the job for end-game events- hefty MP cost on spells to keep up damage coupled with a very small MP pool, massive amount of TP fed to mobs from multi-hit Physical spells, a lack of decent and cost-effective Magical spells- especially those of the non AoE variety, and how poorly BLU spells do with level correction to end-game mobs. None of the things that you said deal with these liabilities- Homam isn't going to make a LS say "Hey, give Fafnir ~50TP for a little bit of damage every 30 seconds!"

Disserverment of Faffy? Thats just stupid.

Frentic Rip actually does nice damage, if you use melee spells. Eyes on Me and Mind Blast if using Blue magic spells. Diamondhide and fruits for support.

[Alistaire]

And this lolthread is dieing anyway. See you in march eh!.

"Dieing" or dying, you are certainly the lol in this "lolthread". I suppose if red mages are duelists (whatever your definition of a duelist is) then dancers are stars, dragoons are wyrms, and blue mages don't even really exist...they're just mirages.

Point is, you're taking this shit way too literally and too far, which is not what SE intended.