RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Yugl]

I got lost around here. I did ignore most of what Sensei was saying though since he never made any sense. Wouldn't a huge majority of this game be to play it for the storyline? And if the story said AV was incapable of being beaten, it would encourage me to beat it -- and then depending on the circumstances I would then relate to it WAI or broken. If it was a BCNM and the story made you fight him and you lose? Working as intended. But it's not like that and you have to go through hell and back to spawn him and then more to kill him.. but you can't. Broken.

If you don't want to play an MMO for it's story, you might as well play any ol' Korean MMO because all those are are mega grind fests. The story is what breaks that mold and gives us that extra bit of fun. Look at iRO expansions versus FFXI. FF has missions, quests, stories.. And at least a long time ago, not sure if it still applies, iRO only had new areas and mobs to kill with very minimal story to the area.

I'm not saying the game shouldn't have storylines; I'm saying storylines shouldn't justify the necessity for an update. According to SenseiFF11, the game's features should match the storyline. So, if we take your example of AV and combine it with SenseiFF11's belief, SE would be justified in making updates to AV that make him untouchable (As they have in the past) since that's what the storyline says. I have no problem with adding a storyline to the game, but I don't think that the storyline has to dictate the mechanics of the game.

[Sho]

It's funny to see that each time you log on this thread you don't share your ideas but criticize what people think. Please show me how "not stupid" you are by posting what you think.

There's no point in sharing my ideas or criticizing you on this thread when the majority of the posters against you already shares my sentiments. This is usually how I view threads unless I have a totally new angle on a subject.

On the flipside, I haven't really said a stupid thing yet in this thread-- if and when I do say stupid things, I always apologize and further stfu if I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should do the same thing? You're coming off to be more of the dumb ass with each post really.

I can say it simply to stay on the subject: SenseiFFXI, you are being way to damn literal on your ideas for RDM; in no way should SE base the mechanics of the job based on the name of it's relic or the storyline. Why? Because FFXI (and it's jobs) are ever evolving. When SE feels like a job needs something, they'll add it-- they simply felt RDM accomplished as much as it should accomplish @ B (250) skill. Rather than increase the skill, I'm sure they are looking into adding to the Enspell line, which indirectly increases damage output regardless.

Also just because you are a master at fencing, does not mean you are master at swordsplay (meaning you don't have to have the highest sword skill). Then lastly, the whole "fencing" and "duelist" bit comes from them being able to wield epee and saber type weapons (bilbo, fluerets, longswords... eg, Joyuese, Enhancing Sword).

[Septimus]

All red mages who are fine with just being one of the most sought after casting jobs, raise their hand.

/

Ummm... Nope. I would like something new for the job that I have been playing since NA release, because I am bored as hell with the job.

Disserverment of Faffy? Thats just stupid.

Frentic Rip actually does nice damage, if you use melee spells. Eyes on Me and Mind Blast if using Blue magic spells. Diamondhide and fruits for support.

Or instead you could bring a SCH who could nuke better and support better (with Phalanx and a stronger Stoneskin). Point is that a BLU is a waste of a spot at an HNM.

[Yugl]

Point is that a BLU is a waste of a spot at an HNM.

Depends on the HNM. SATACA Cannonball + Vertical Cleave can hit some nice numbers (And it's especially good on Odin since you can SATA onto the tanks from a distance). Fafnir of course is an exception to this tactic because of Spike Flail. It's applicable on other HNMs and even Wyrms that fly (SATACA Cannonball while flying since it's a ranged move). I personally don't have any SSs of damage, but I've seen some floating around the BLU Thread (In advanced) where some BLUs hit nearly 3k on SATACA Cannonball on Cerberus with Minne.

Edit: The biggest issue with BLU is the lack of zerg and big hit moves on specific HNMs.

[Dragir]

Just because you are a master at fencing, does not mean you are master at swordsplay (meaning you don't have to have the highest sword skill). Then lastly, the whole "fencing" and "duelist" bit comes from them being able to wield epee and saber type weapons (bilbo, fluerets, longswords... eg, Joyuese, Enhancing Sword).

If SE wanted to be true to the idea of Red Mages as 'fencers' and classical 'duelists', I'd be glad to have native dual wield and A+ parrying skill, such being historically appropriate. Just musing. Carry on, carry on...

[Sho]

If SE wanted to be true to the idea of Red Mages as 'fencers' and classical 'duelists', I'd be glad to have native dual wield and A+ parrying skill, such being historically appropriate. Just musing. Carry on, carry on...

I am corrected. Sounds even more appropriate, thank you.

[Dragir]

I am corrected. Sounds even more appropriate, thank you.

While I do not, per se, agree that Red Mage should not have a higher skill with swords than with daggers were the game's jobs in accordance with their assorted monikers (B+, or A- would certainly not "break" the job), I didn't mean to correct you; the portion about epees and bilbos and longswords is obviously correct. I wanted only to add to that comparative notion of title:role and to remark on SE's dismissal of other aspects of fencing for the sake of job balance.

Oh, and I changed that link in the first post. This other page is far better illustrative of my first post's intent although I see at the time of the quote, the links were the same.

[arus2001]

Am I the only one that thinks SE designed BLU as they did to not repeat the failings of RDM as a hybrid, and not so much for the sake of making one more of something than the other?

Tying physical spell accuracy to your weapon pretty much means the elemental staves are out short of maybe SA Cannonball with a Fire Staff for some reason. Until Diffusion, most buffs were self-only, meaning cycles didn't really screw them. They can still heal decently (better than most give credit for or try, I think), but lesser support options or longevity catches up to them. A lot of the physical spells cast quickly, so paired with the lack of having to support as much, they can get some more melee DoT in.

Anyway, I agree SE will do whatever they want with this. The enspells in the DATs are probably the biggest clue on what RDM will receive, but the WHM aspect is definitely up in the air. I hope they're just more than toys, though. I'd actually consider level syncing my RDM or something if I could do more than refresh whore.

[LD]

Am I the only one that thinks SE designed BLU as they did to not repeat the failings of RDM as a hybrid, and not so much for the sake of making one more of something than the other?

I have thoughts on this, but there's enough job crap floating around here without me writing a treatise on BLU, consisting principally of things I've said at least ten times before.


What I will say is that experience had taught me that what SE intends isn't always relevant or good.

[Rainesong]

sorry more useless 'what if' banter:

obviously a MAJOR drawback to RDM melee is that RDMs (at least halfway decent ones) spend a very large portion of their time casting spells, and this probably causes RDMs to swing at least 50% less than they otherwise would be, really making it more of a hassle than it's worth in many cases. i'd love to see SE implement a trait or JA that allows RDMs to swing (not ws) while spellcasting every so often. (could be a 1,3,5,w/e min JA or a trait that just allows for a random chance at swinging, w/e SE wouldn't deem overpowered.) that'd be just nifty...

[Ethican]

Personally, I'd like to see something along the lines of a trait that would allow a second spell to be cast while another spell is being cast. Call it fast cast mastery or something. This would both improve efficiency on spell casting and improve efficiency meleeing. Honestly it's so I can cast haste and refresh at the same time, or utsusemi + stoneskin same time.

Or they could always do a Rapier mastery or Enspell mastery. Rapier mastery increase acc and atk and improve parry rates. Enspell mastery improve dmg of enspells by 5-10 ( I dunno 5 seems low 10 seems high)

I'm not a melee rdm, but I do farm on rdm. The above mentioned twin cast trait would help both factions, as it were, do what they want to do.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Once SE started put some JAs at level 60 for like THF and adding stuff to others like Elemental Syphon, I thought it would be awesome if RDM got like a Warlock's Seal that doubled the duration of the next enhancing spell. That would give them more melee time or just allow them to keep Refresh up longer. It could even double the cost of the spell, wouldn't matter.

/wishfulthinking

>.>

[Shinta]

I want WHM to just look at the mob and deal damage like they were meleeing. This way, they wouldn't have to sacrifice any of their spellcasting focus.

There, I said it.

[Nirokun!]

I want WHM to just look at the mob and deal damage like they were meleeing. This way, they wouldn't have to sacrifice any of their spellcasting focus.

There, I said it.

Just give whm native levels of magic attack bonus, reduce the cost/recast of banish spells, introduce banishIV, banishgaIII, and holy II. Fun toys ;3

[Okan]

Just give whm native levels of magic attack bonus, reduce the cost/recast of banish spells, introduce banishIV, banishgaIII, and holy II. Fun toys ;3

Make Holy II act like the ancient magics, but at a 1.5'ish level. Not as strong as the II's, but a bit stronger than the I's. I mean BLMs are built to do the damage so we don't want to kick them out of groups in favor of WHMs that can heal and DPS.

I'd love to build a Holy magic DPS WHM play set. I can dream though.

[SenseiFF11]

Also just because you are a master at fencing, does not mean you are master at swordsplay (meaning you don't have to have the highest sword skill). Then lastly, the whole "fencing" and "duelist" bit comes from them being able to wield epee and saber type weapons (bilbo, fluerets, longswords... eg, Joyuese, Enhancing Sword).
I can say it simply to stay on the subject: SenseiFFXI, you are being way to damn literal on your ideas for RDM; in no way should SE base the mechanics of the job based on the name of it's relic or the storyline. Why? Because FFXI (and it's jobs) are ever evolving. When SE feels like a job needs something, they'll add it-- they simply felt RDM accomplished as much as it should accomplish @ B (250) skill. Rather than increase the skill, I'm sure they are looking into adding to the Enspell line, which indirectly increases damage output regardless.

Fencing use 3 types of weapons: foil, saber and épée(the RDM weapons type). If you "master" fencing, "logically" you are supposed to be "good" with a sword as stated by SE in the interview.
You say: "just because you are a master at fencing, does not mean you are master at swordsplay (meaning you don't have to have the highest sword skill)."
There is a contradiction in your comment. Please tell me what someone need to "master" to have a high sword skill, if it's not fencing. (and please don't say what I never said, don't put words in my mouth. I never pretended that SE will give the highest sword skill to RDM, I said RDM should have what BLU have at least, if they were meant to be good with a sword.)
Fencing: The art or sport of using a foil, épée, or saber in attack and defense(parrying).

I suggest you to not be so sure about the "SE will not increase RDM sword skills". I think RDM will get an increase their, that is my opinion. Nobody have to be agree that is not the point.
SE increased the RDM sword skills 2 times since FF release, and it looked like they were not really sure what to do with that job. We know that RDM have hard time hitting monsters, oh yes they can get accuracy gears. But as a RDM I prefer keeping my mp and mag. acc gears, instead of sacrificing it to get more accuracy. Unless RDM got an accuracy bonus spell in march, they need a higher sword skill to at least touch the mob decently. The point of the update(again referring myself to the interview), is to make them melee in party, not a solo purpose, if they know their games, they know that RDM accuracy is very bad.
You are critisizing me on the "give RDM higher sword skill", what you don't understand is I'm trying to give idea on how to solve the RDM melee weakness:accuracy and buff cycle. So try to do the same by sharing your ideas. Because giving RDM enspells tier II only, like you stated, will not bring him to the frontlines in party anytime soon.
The AF2 names are not choosen randomly if this is what you think, there is a specific reason for each AF2 names, and it even start on the AF1.(AF1 RDM for example) You are barely saying that the AF2 names and a job storyline means nothing, this is ridiculous. And I never said SE should base the mechanic of a job based on his AF2 and storyline. I said the AF2 names and the storyline of a job explain what that job is, simple as that.
Do you really think that Excalibur and Mandau are also available to RDM for no specific reasons, they choosed to give Excalibur to PLD and RDM only just because they felt that RDM "need" that?(you said if SE think a job need something they will give it to him, no matter his storyline). RDM have access to Excalibur and Mandau for good reasons, not just because they need it. Someone already posted a good link about "Duelist" here, so I'm not going to enter in this debate.
RDM was supposed to be good at fencing(and so be good with sword and why not parrying), many people already said that on this thread. Now how they knew that RDM suppose to be good at fencing? Because they based their information from the RDM storyline and nowhere else. That is what I tried to do when I analyzed the RDM storyline and AF2 names, to find what would be "logic" to give to the RDM in march. I don't think it's illogic, or "over"powered or stupid like you said, to think that RDM should get at least an A- skill. You don't have to agree with me, if you are not, explain why that's all. And propose something that you think is better than mine.

[SenseiFF11]

sorry more useless 'what if' banter:

obviously a MAJOR drawback to RDM melee is that RDMs (at least halfway decent ones) spend a very large portion of their time casting spells, and this probably causes RDMs to swing at least 50% less than they otherwise would be, really making it more of a hassle than it's worth in many cases. i'd love to see SE implement a trait or JA that allows RDMs to swing (not ws) while spellcasting every so often. (could be a 1,3,5,w/e min JA or a trait that just allows for a random chance at swinging, w/e SE wouldn't deem overpowered.) that'd be just nifty...

There is another spell other than the enspells II in the altana viewer added at the sametime as those enspells.(last march) It's a RDM spell but nobody is able to figure out what that spell is. I believe it's a strong haste spell.(hopefully. And that could solve the casting while meleeing to make RDM melee more, and could show a very good benefice of enspells). But some people think that it's an attack bonus spell.

[Cutriss]

You know, once upon a time I use to bitch and complain that RDM was nothing but a Cure/Refresh/Haste whore. Use to hate FFXI over this. Although I acknowledged it was one of the most sought after jobs, it wasn't what I originally thought it would be when compared to past FF's. Then I discovered this wonderful feature in my Mog House called "Change Jobs." Now not only do I have fun with other jobs, I also have an extremely useful mage job leveled.

This is the 2nd smartest comment in this thread.

This is the first:

Ljollnir

[Alistaire]

There is another spell other than the enspells II in the altana viewer added at the sametime as those enspells.(last march) It's a RDM spell but nobody is able to figure out what that spell is. I believe it's a strong haste spell.(hopefully. And that could solve the casting while meleeing to make RDM melee more, and could show a very good benefice of enspells). But some people think that it's an attack bonus spell.

If you mean Enrage, that had nothing to do with RDM at all. It was a trial version of a PLD Provoke that ended up being turned into a Sentinel boost.

And regardless of what it is, there's no way you could tell if a spell in altana viewer is a RDM spell. You could tell if it's white magic, black magic, summoning, singing, or blue magic by the animation, and that's it.

And as for the rest of your bs can you please read the responses to your various posts and see how far out in left field you are? ffs give it up already.

[SenseiFF11]

If you mean Enrage, that had nothing to do with RDM at all. It was a trial version of a PLD Provoke that ended up being turned into a Sentinel boost.

And regardless of what it is, there's no way you could tell if a spell in altana viewer is a RDM spell. You could tell if it's white magic, black magic, summoning, singing, or blue magic by the animation, and that's it.

And as for the rest of your bs can you please read the responses to your various posts and see how far out in left field you are? ffs give it up already.

Stop posting shit without knowing what you are talking about. There is a program called: POLUtils that tell you the spells name associated with AltanaViewer!
That spell I'm talking was added in march 2008 at the sametime as those enspells tier II, so I have no idea why you are talking about a sentinel boost!
That spell name is: Akamadoushi_Mei. Akamadoushi = Red Mage "Mei" is probably the abbreviation of the spell himself. You can tell the type of the spells in altanaviewer, but there are programs that tell you the files name, ignorant.