RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Ziero]

Hot dayum, I missed some fun apparently.

SE increased the RDM sword skills 2 times since FF release, and it looked like they were not really sure what to do with that job. We know that RDM have hard time hitting monsters, oh yes they can get accuracy gears. But as a RDM I prefer keeping my mp and mag. acc gears, instead of sacrificing it to get more accuracy. Unless RDM got an accuracy bonus spell in march, they need a higher sword skill to at least touch the mob decently. The point of the update(again referring myself to the interview), is to make them melee in party, not a solo purpose, if they know their games, they know that RDM accuracy is very bad.

Even with A+, merited skills, Melees need acc gear to hit many mobs in this game effectively. So even if Rdm got A+ skill, higher then Blu, they would still need acc gear to hit monsters effectively. The mobs they can hit now with B skill and casting gear are the same mobs they'll be able to hit with A skill and casting gear.

The AF2 names are not choosen randomly if this is what you think, there is a specific reason for each AF2 names, and it even start on the AF1.(AF1 RDM for example) You are barely saying that the AF2 names and a job storyline means nothing, this is ridiculous. And I never said SE should base the mechanic of a job based on his AF2 and storyline. I said the AF2 names and the storyline of a job explain what that job is, simple as that.

Rdm AF1 set is called Warlock, a male witch. Does that mean Rdms are a male only job that can only cast spells?

Do you really think that Excalibur and Mandau are also available to RDM for no specific reasons, they choosed to give Excalibur to PLD and RDM only just because they felt that RDM "need" that?(you said if SE think a job need something they will give it to him, no matter his storyline). RDM have access to Excalibur and Mandau for good reasons, not just because they need it.

They gave Rdm Exca and Mandau for the same reasons they gave War Bravura and Ragnarok. Because those are the weapons they're "supposed" to be good with story wise...but War has better skill in Axe then Gsword.

Someone already posted a good link about "Duelist" here, so I'm not going to enter in this debate.

That was me proving how stupid the entire idea of "The AF says duelist so we should be better with swords!" is. Because being a Duelist has nothing to do with swords.

RDM was supposed to be good at fencing(and so be good with sword and why not parrying), many people already said that on this thread. Now how they knew that RDM suppose to be good at fencing? Because they based their information from the RDM storyline and nowhere else. That is what I tried to do when I analyzed the RDM storyline and AF2 names, to find what would be "logic" to give to the RDM in march. I don't think it's illogic, or "over"powered or stupid like you said, to think that RDM should get at least an A- skill. You don't have to agree with me, if you are not, explain why that's all. And propose something that you think is better than mine.

I think it's damn near retarded to base what a job should get based on what the "story" tells you.

There is another spell other than the enspells II in the altana viewer added at the sametime as those enspells.(last march) It's a RDM spell but nobody is able to figure out what that spell is. I believe it's a strong haste spell.(hopefully. And that could solve the casting while meleeing to make RDM melee more, and could show a very good benefice of enspells). But some people think that it's an attack bonus spell.

There's a lot of spells and items in the dats that have never, nor will ever, see any real use.

Ok so honestly, you think that RDM have access to dagger and excalibur because they want to give all class access to relic? You missunderstood my point. I know that SE will give "all" class access to relic, that is kinda logic they have no choices. I'm talking about the "choices" of the relic types. How many jobs have access to 2 relic in dynamis?

Because those are the only two weapon classes Rdm have access to as far as Relics are concerned. But as I pointed out earlier, SE used the "idea" of War to give them the Ragnarok, despite them having less skill in it then Axe and the Guttler. Story based logic is stupid.

you saw the guy that posted the exact definition of Duelist here? RDM have access to sword and dagger for some logic reasons, not just because SE need to give access to relic to all jobs.

Why in the hell do you keep trying to use that in your favor?

*BEING A DUELIST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SWORDS*

There is a reason that explain why SAM have access to GK and bow too. That's my point. Yes SE will give access to relic to all jobs(for sure it's obvious), however the weapons choices are not choosen randomly, that's the only thing I tried to point out.

War has higher skill in Axe yet doesn't get the Axe relic. War's AF1 is an axe but they do not get the Axe relic. Explain that "logic".

Duelist = dagger and sword. Are we agree on that part "at least"?

No, no we do not agree on that because that is completely wrong.

I said if SE want to give RDM and WHM something to produce beneficial status from striking the ennemy, it should help them reduce their number of casting. beneficial status available by striking, to other party members.

And I said they did that exact thing with Dnc. A class who has similar "buffs" (Haste and MP refresh), better Accuracy, stronger melee skills, and was built from the ground up to hit things and support players and that despite all that, they're still weak against higher lvl mobs. Despite being a class that has everything you asked for and more they're still weak against higher level monsters.

You are all wrong. RDM need an update first because it's pretty boring now and he's waiting for a very long time, every job need something new time to time no matter how powerfull that job is.

So Rdm should get something just to get something? That never seems to work out too well. See: Footwork.

And secondly because RDM was meant to be versatile, and the frontline aspect need to be adjusted to make him more versatile, because RDM is more like a refresh/haste/cure now.

Rdm is versitile. They can perform any role in this game, just not to the extent as pure built classes can. Lets see a War try to main heal a merit PT or a Sam debuff an HNM or a Drk tank JoL. Show me a Blm that can out melee a Rdm in campaign or a Drg who can work crowd control in Dynamis or a Whm who can solo a god. Rdm can do a little of everything.

And stop evading people questions, tell people what RDM should get to melee more, still waiting on your answer.

The only one evading questions is you. For like the fifth time, I will ask "Rdm gets tier 2 en-spells that do up to 50-60 dmg a swing unresisted and an A ranked sword skill. What situations would you suddenly be able to melee in?"

For the most part, they really aren't worth mentioning. In terms of level progression, NIN is about as reliable and used for hate, not to mention possessing various second tier spells of their own whereas RDM had to wait years for merits ...*snip*...The main issue is pushing RDM further to the back betrays SE's wishes for the job. Whatever melee update comes, the RDMs who enjoy things now can continue to play as they have been, with the people who would rather them play that way. For those looking for that change, they'll finally have a chance after years of clamoring (I say this with skepticism since years of cookie cutter-ism is hard to break with minimal adjustments). Wasted update? Definite matter of opinion, and we presently lack the integral evidence to decide either way (The update itself).

Ya know, if Sensei could have made arguments as intelligent and articulate as this, the topic would have been a whole lot more interesting.

I'll agree that Rdm are getting shafted hard with the merited spells bit. Slow, Para and Blind II should have all been basic, learned spells. Masters of enfeebling should have mastered enfeebling. And at the same time, I can see the complaint about how adding more spells would only take away from Rdm's "other half"...but at the same time every class needs it's specialty and Rdms would have the best success if that specialty was casting. I'm not saying they shouldn't get some melee tweaks, I'm just saying they won't change the way the job is played.

[Cutriss]

but at the same time every class needs it's specialty and Rdms would have the best success if that specialty was casting.

I think it's best put to say that RDM's specialty is that it has no specialty.

It amazes me to this day that so many people believe that you can be a jack of all trades, *and* a master of them too.

Be right back guys, gonna go tell Square about my awesome new job idea that lets me dual-wield a Great Axe and a Scythe at the same time while having Haste, Refresh, Utsusemi: San, Death, Reraise IV, Treasure Hunter III, Triple Attack, Dual Wield, Wide Scan, Provoke, Charm, and more MP than a Summoner. Also it can use a wyvern and an automaton at the same time. But don't worry, it's not broken.

The problem is that Red Mage (in the FF1 days) used to be a beautiful and unique snowflake by virtue of having access to both pools of magic. This uniqueness was dashed from day one by the subjob system. That's why they had to get shoe-horned into their own support category - just so they'd have some usefulness of their own, no matter how out-of-place it was.

The game could conceivably have been made better if Red Mage had never been implemented, as was the case in Final Fantasy Tactics. Red Mage could have been introduced later when the expectations weren't as high as they are now.

[arus2001]

It amazes me to this day that so many people believe that you can be a jack of all trades, *and* a master of them too.

If people are gonna rip into what RDM "is" based on story, past FF, or whatever else they wanna call garbage, then comments like this should be included, too. Any sane RDM that's okay with a melee update doesn't expect to be a DRK or SAM on the parse. However, there's not really a reason to take a melee RDM to anything even if they have the gear, subs, food, and an accommodating party layout (Which is rare in the days of 24k+/hr or gtfo). The job is maybe 2/3 of what it can be. As a healer, it lacks compared to WHM. As a nuker, a BLM is undoubtedly superior. SCH's come to pass and proven itself more the backline RDM through a heavier mage emphasis, too.

Comparing jobs is inevitable when you start talking balance, or more specifically knocking RDM out of it. I mentioned 2/3 because it lacks any meaningful melee traits making that remaining 1/3 far less worthwhile than the other two individually. A+ sword won't do anything alone. A couple levels of ACC bonus would probably be better since Enspells can help with the ATK deficit. Hell, if we wanna call the job a Fencer, it really should have a higher parry rate and the ability to counter, but again that does nothing to help melee directly. No current melee trait will do shit about the fact Haste/Refresh cycles eat up swing time, and suggesting the RDM shirk them to another party member brings the implication they're a waste of space leeching EXP.

I hinted on it with my post about SE's design of BLU, but later attempts at hybrid jobs shows things SE has learned. Enter Corsair, AoE near-instant buffs (Double-Up being the downer), the ability to melee decently, and even WS at range after you dump a roll on the mages. Enter BLU, with physical spell accuracy tied to the weapon, many spells requiring near-melee range, and even the ability to toggle traits out in the field. Enter DNC, while still going through some growing pains as a new job, is fueled solely on TP to provide its support and modest offense.

The three above jobs, while all having some flaws, bring something unique and functional. SE has a lot of options, honestly limited only by imagination, but the trick is kicking the stigma that Mage = Backline, BLU often being forgotten when that argument surfaces. Hastega and Refreshga are the lazy way out, and with having no tie to actual melee, people will just translate it into more time to rest for MP. Focus on damage too much, and other jobs feel threatened. I'd rather them not rip off DNC in some capacity samba-like enspells or buffs being perpetuated by striking, but they're at least somewhere more in the right direction of thought.

Sucks we have like 6-7 more weeks with only speculation to run with. This assumes SE makes good on the word for the update coming and not getting forgotten to MMM updates, too.

[SenseiFF11]

Hot dayum, I missed some fun apparently.



Even with A+, merited skills, Melees need acc gear to hit many mobs in this game effectively. So even if Rdm got A+ skill, higher then Blu, they would still need acc gear to hit monsters effectively. The mobs they can hit now with B skill and casting gear are the same mobs they'll be able to hit with A skill and casting gear.

It looks like you are not reading people again. Go back on other page I said:"The sword skill will solve a lot about the accuracy."
That means I never pretended they will "not" need more ACC to hit even after obtaining an A-. Even a DD need some ACC with an A+. I said it will "help" a lot. You seriously need a new pair of glasses.

Rdm AF1 set is called Warlock, a male witch. Does that mean Rdms are a male only job that can only cast spells?
And on the subject of AF, lets look at their original set...the Warlock set. Do you know what a Warlock is? It's a Male witch. It's a man that uses magic. Guess only guys can be Rdm according to your logic, and on top of that they should only use magic too!

Firstly I spoke about the AF1 to point the sword Fencing Degen, not Warlock. Secondly, since you start the debate about Warlock, how come that you are the one saying that people are stupid when you don’t even know the origin of the word Warlock in FFXI? And why Warlock is used on the RDM AF1?
The part I just quoted show your big ignorance(seriously).
Between, I don’t even care about the RDM update anymore on this thread, or what they will or they will not get in march and ect, so no need to lose your time on quoting me. So I’m just going to read people that have something to « propose » about RDM and WHM update, unless the goal of this thread is just to talk, I believe it was made to share idea about a possible adjustments. Because I'm not here to fight people, but it looks like this thread turned out that way. So don’t lose your time on quoting me to critisize. However, it’s just funny to see that you actually don’t know the history of the job you are leveling(you don’t know the basics), but you want to argue with people about that job.

[Ultimagi]

The Red Mage in the Artifact Armour storyline, Curilla's father, was male. Since you're obtaining his armour in the quests, it makes sense to be called Warlock's Attire.

[Charismatic]

Warlocks are, among historic Christian traditions, said to be the male equivalent of witches (usually in the pejorative sense of Europe's Middle Ages), and were said to ride pitchforks instead of broomsticks which normally witches would ride. In traditional Scottish witchcraft, "warlock" was and is simply the term used for a wizard, or male witch.[1] A synonym is sorcerer.[2]

Any of you ever stop to think that they might be using a different definition of the word warlock?

Those are just a couple, apparently there are even more definitions and only some of them are gender-specific.

[Yugl]

If storyline is so important, then why isn't Relic gender specific?

[Ziero]

It looks like you are not reading people again.

Except unlike you I actually read and respond to the entire post. You should try it sometime.

Go back on other page I said:"The sword skill will solve a lot about the accuracy."
That means I never pretended they will "not" need more ACC to hit even after obtaining an A-. Even a DD need some ACC with an A+. I said it will "help" a lot. You seriously need a new pair of glasses.

You also said you'd rather keep your Casting gear on. I was pointing out that even if Rdm got A+ skill, they'd still need to use Acc gear to hit anything they can't already hit now. See, that's one of the things you keep avoiding, the fact that there are tons of mobs and situations that Rdm can and do melee effectively in. The few where they can't are caused by a lot more problems then their spell load and acc problems.

Secondly, since you start the debate about Warlock, how come that you are the one saying that people are stupid when you don’t even know the origin of the word Warlock in FFXI? And why Warlock is used on the RDM AF1?

The word "Warlock" means the same in FFXI as it does in the real world, a MAN who casts MAGIC. Even if it comes from Rainemard, he is still a man who casts magic. And yet females, of all shapes and sizes, can use that armor. Does that make sense?

However, it’s just funny to see that you actually don’t know the history of the job you are leveling(you don’t know the basics), but you want to argue with people about that job.

I have never, nor will ever, level Rdm. Infact I make a point to use it as my bloodwarp job of choice. I do not like playing a caster job, not even Blu, as I prefer straight forward melee combat. I have never even come close to stating I played Rdm nor that I cared about the job. But on that same token, I do not need to play the job to understand it's issues with melee skills nor do I need to know every detail of the AF story to know that the words Warlock and Duelist have NOTHING TO DO WITH MELEE SKILLS.

Any of you ever stop to think that they might be using a different definition of the word warlock?

Those are just a couple, apparently there are even more definitions and only some of them are gender-specific.

Well it would have been nice if you posted those other definitions because the ones you used stated exactly that Warlocks were male spell users.

If storyline is so important, then why isn't Relic gender specific?

Did you know War AF is apparently a national treasure as it was worn by a Galkan war hero? And as a sign of peace between the two nations the body is sent to a San'D Orian museum to be displayed for a short time, but gets stolen by goblins. Yet despite being built and worn by and for a Galka, it fits on a Taru with no problem. And despite being something so highly prized that it can be used as a symbol of peace between two nations, the guys in charge instead decide to let you keep it since you found it on the gobs.

AF stories make no sense what-so-ever in terms of gameplay. And arguing AF and their related stories are justification for job updates is utterly ridiculous

[Charismatic]

Well it would have been nice if you posted those other definitions because the ones you used stated exactly that Warlocks were male spell users.

My point was just that there are mulitple definitions of the damn word, the wiki article points out that not all definitions are gender-specific but I'm not going to do the damn work for you, what the fuck do I look like?

My name isn't Alfred.

[Ultimagi]

have NOTHING TO DO WITH MELEE SKILLS.

Look this up...

This is relating to a Fencer, who wields a Rapier.

[Ziero]

My point was just that there are mulitple definitions of the damn word, the wiki article points out that not all definitions are gender-specific but I'm not going to do the damn work for you, what the fuck do I look like?

My name isn't Alfred.

The only other "definition" on the Wiki is the one saying "Wiccans in particular consider it to be a pejorative term, meaning "oath-breaker". Wiccans use the term "warlock" to mean one who has been banished from a coven, either for revealing secrets, or for breaking coven laws." So either Rdm are a male only spell caster or they're banished from covens for breaking an oath. Unless you think the term is referring to the "To secure (a horse) as with a fetterlock. Warlock v2: To bar against hostile invasion" definition.

If you're going to post a quote from the wiki to try and prove your point...you might want to try not posting somthing that contridicts what you stated.

Look this up...

This is relating to a Fencer, who wields a Rapier.

And that has nothing to do with what I posted. The SWORD is a Fencing Degen. A degen used for fencing. The word "fencing" describes the sword, not the job. But that still doesn't change the fact that the words Warlock and Duelist have nothing to do with melee skills. And that AF names do not represent the type of updates a job should get.

[Seraph]

Needs more Enthunder II, or Enthundaga.

Can you imagine Operation Enthundaga? Can you!?!

[Ultimagi]

The fact that Red Mage's artifact weapon is a Rapier, and the relic armour is called Duelist's, implies, to me, that the job was designed to melee with a Rapier. Which has everything to do with what you said.
Accession + Enthunder?
Or casts Thundaga on attacks? That would be horrible.

[Ziero]

The fact that Red Mage's artifact weapon is a Rapier, and the relic armour is called Duelist's, implies, to me, that the job was designed to melee with a Rapier. Which has everything to do with what you said.
Accession + Enthunder?
Or casts Thundaga on attacks? That would be horrible.

Again, the word Duelist has nothing to do with melee weapons.

Blm AF1 is a wand.

Wars get a one handed Axe

Dnc get a FREAKING HOOP

Af pieces and names are not good reasons to update jobs

[Charismatic]

To secure (a horse) as with a fetterlock. Warlock v2: To bar against hostile invasion"

Sounds about right to me, what do you think?

[Okan]

There is sooooo much more to worry about in this game then RDM. RDM is fine. If you are sick of Refresh and Haste, level DRK or WAR or something that is MEANT to melee. RDM can melee, but they are not a melee job. At all.

[arus2001]

There is sooooo much more to worry about in this game then RDM. RDM is fine. If you are sick of Refresh and Haste, level DRK or WAR or something that is MEANT to melee. RDM can melee, but they are not a melee job. At all.

If RDM's fine, why do so many people have it leveled (Top job on last census, no?), but never want to do anything on it? It's not unlike the BRD Curse, really. Doesn't help there's not a whole lot of endgame stuff to strive for or that fresh 75 could do for a merit party what someone fully pimped could. Solo's sort of the last bastion, but SE's been frowning upon that by giving newer mobs high auto-regen/regain, rage timers, and (building) enfeeble resistance.

Anyway, a melee update isn't for everyone, but if SCH has taught us anything, RDM going more magey would find a way to further step on the toes of WHM and BLM, thus prompting more whining and overpowered rants. Honestly, I wish SE would be a bit more brave about updating multiple jobs at once, sometimes with dramatic results akin to the 2H update or even SCH, but it kind of goes against their whole carrot dangling, blue balling MO.

[wintersquall]

EDIT: edited myself for trolling, i can't even come in advanced anymore haha

[Sunrider]

Again, the word Duelist has nothing to do with melee weapons.

Blm AF1 is a wand.

Wars get a one handed Axe

Dnc get a FREAKING HOOP

Af pieces and names are not good reasons to update jobs

First, not true.

Seeing as how we live in the real world and magic is, by and large, non-existent, duelists have majorly been associated with melee weapons. Fencers in their heyday would engage in one-on-one duels to settle varying grievances, which later expanded to pistol use, with the whole 20-paces-turn-and-shoot rules, popular in varying forms of media.

Combine this with S-E's affinity with associating RDM with a myriad of smallswords(to include the Fencing degen, Artifact weapon) and daggers, and we can conclude that, at least with RDM, the term "duelist" applies as much to melee weapons as it does to magical spells.


It's as silly as it is imbalanced to disregard theme when considering a fictional medium(in our cases, a video game). Naturally, the form should never the sole reason for changes to a job, but then, function should never be the sole factor, either. Both form and function are equally important in considering a job for updates, and while priority will inevitably wax and wane between the two, one is never less important than the other.

If RDM's fine, why do so many people have it leveled (Top job on last census, no?), but never want to do anything on it?

Million dollar question, often dismissed when convenience is at stake.

Anyway, a melee update isn't for everyone, but if SCH has taught us anything, RDM going more magey would find a way to further step on the toes of WHM and BLM, thus prompting more whining and overpowered rants. Honestly, I wish SE would be a bit more brave about updating multiple jobs at once, sometimes with dramatic results akin to the 2H update or even SCH, but it kind of goes against their whole carrot dangling, blue balling MO.

If nothing else, SCH in and of itself should be the very reason for a combat update to RDM.

Even if one were to ignore the blurring of lines between RDM and WHM|BLM in the past, it's very difficult to ignore the similarities between RDM and SCH, two jobs really only differentiated by Refresh and Haste. With it's utter lack of combat skills(and lack of JAs to compensate), SCH could be described as a purely backline equivalent to RDM. This being the case, something should be updated on RDM to distinguish it from it's magic-specific counterpart, and since new magic doesn't really answer that distinction combat updates are the only remaining conclusion.

[Seraph]

The fact that Red Mage's artifact weapon is a Rapier, and the relic armour is called Duelist's, implies, to me, that the job was designed to melee with a Rapier. Which has everything to do with what you said.

Fencing Degen RareEx
[Main] All Races
DPS: 5.89 DMG:22 Delay:224 MP+10 INT+1 MND+1
LV 41 RDM


The fact that Red Mage's artifact weapon has MP, INT, and MND on it implies they should be enfeebling. In fact, they should quest it and never equip it ever just because this exists nine levels sooner:

Solid Wand
[Main] All Races
DPS: 3.14 DMG:11 Delay:210 INT+5 MND+5
LV 32 WHM BLM RDM SMN BLU SCH