RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Kenji]

Combine this with S-E's affinity with associating RDM with a myriad of smallswords(to include the Fencing degen, Artifact weapon) and daggers, and we can conclude that, at least with RDM, the term "duelist" applies as much to melee weapons as it does to magical spells.

Wrong. Haven't you watched Yu-Gi-Oh? Being a duelist means you bust out the cards!

It's time to D-D-D-D-D-D-D-DUEL!

[Okan]

If RDM's fine, why do so many people have it leveled (Top job on last census, no?), but never want to do anything on it? It's not unlike the BRD Curse, really. Doesn't help there's not a whole lot of endgame stuff to strive for or that fresh 75 could do for a merit party what someone fully pimped could. Solo's sort of the last bastion, but SE's been frowning upon that by giving newer mobs high auto-regen/regain, rage timers, and (building) enfeeble resistance.

Ask them why they don't want to break it out. If you need "proof" that RDM is fine, look at Avesta and all the RDMs that challenge themselves to solo virtually everything in the game. This isn't a coincidence. The job is fine for those that know how to handle it.

Same with WHM. I don't know about other WHMs, but when I chose to level the job, I understood I was a healer. I never expected to be a damage dealer. Hell, I never expected to be able to solo anything, but I can if I apply myself and experiment with say BLM, RDM, or NIN SJs based on what I am fighting.

The things that needs to be tweaked though? All ground HNMs. Especially the still overcamped 5 years later Kings and their lesser counterparts. Sure, BCNMs were created of the 3, but the items that people want were not dropped in to them. Ridill, Defending Ring, all the abjurations. They only amplified the abjuration issue with Einherjar because they are so freaking rare you need like 36 (?) people for Odin. Nice. About as common as claiming a Nidhogg, killing it without someone trying to MPK you, and getting the drop.

Some other classes can use tweaks to make them all more group, merit, and end-game desirable. I'm sorry, but WHM and RDM really don't have an issue here (Well maybe WHM from what I've seen. All I see is a friend saying he goes with RDM because they can go all night). They will get in to end game here. THF? Maybe one for TH4, but that is about it. PUP? DRG? BST? At least until recently, you wouldn't even see people admitting they leveled DRG. Now they are loved for bird merits and that is about it. PUP and BST need some serious re-working to be generally accepted to say.. Anything. BLU, DNC, SCH, I'm sorry, but I know nothing about these, but I don't hear of them often at HNM/End game events.

I know it's sky, but something needs to be done here to prevent massive RMT of the area. I see seals and pop items in RMT bazaars all day. People are still MPKing and stealing over things like Olla pots. This needs to be addressed.

Salvage drop rates need to be addressed. Relic and Mythic Weapons needs to be evaluated. Did they really plan for only say 15 people per server to really have one FIVE years after Dynamis was created? Is it supposed to be more? Less? I'd imagine that it's a bit steep unless you want to invest those 18 hour days.

Boss progression like people are asking. What is after Vrtra/Ouryu/Bahamut and up to AV/PW. Huge gap(s). Also, why do they plan for AV/PW to be 20+ hour long campaigns? I honestly don't think any boss should be more than 3 hours well executed, 5 tops. SE is making strides to make the game more casual friendly (Nyzul, low ranked ZNM, more BCNM/KSNM/ISNM/ENM/etc) but they need to push just a little harder. I ask you this: Does it really bother you that bad if a casual'ish player has an Adaman Hauberk from say a BCNM? A different NM altogether? If you say yes, you need to look at yourself and wonder why it bothers you this much. Casuals are paying the same price as you, it's just they don't care to, want to, or have the time to invest 18 hours a day, 7 days a week to camp Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspido, go to sky and full clear that once a week, do sea too, Einherjar, Dynamis, oh and Salvage too. Shit, I know of people who have been playing as long as me (US PC release) without my 3 year hiatus from just before ToAU until just last month... Just hit 75 on his first job not too long ago. Still hasn't ever seen sky. Doesn't even know what a Fafnir is, or a Ridill. But he's been playing this game longer then a good bit of you here. Why should he not be allowed a chance at these? I'm sort of getting off topic'ish. Anyway, I'll end here.

TLDR: RDM is fine, maybe a tiny tweak at the most. WHM can use a very Tiny Tim like tweak (MP conservation/regeneration). There are other more important issues that needs to be addressed that are MUCH more important than LOLRDMMELEE.

[TybudX]

Let me get this straight... there's a 19 page thread where some people are arguing for a melee update for RDM?

Why not? They have A+ enfeebling, can buff extremely well, are capable nukers and healers, are a great solo tank in thier own right, can solo almost anything/where that is soloable (in many cases, proving that such things are even possible!), have access to a huge variety of mage/DD/tanking gear, and have almost limitless MP to pull off the many feats they do.

I really don't see how giving them an A+ Sword skill and an extra 50-80 damage per hit from Enpell IIs would make them any less broken than they already are.

[Siya]

Same with WHM. I don't know about other WHMs, but when I chose to level the job, I understood I was a healer. I never expected to be a damage dealer. Hell, I never expected to be able to solo anything, but I can if I apply myself and experiment with say BLM, RDM, or NIN SJs based on what I am fighting.

Finally I thought I was the only one. I started on whm when I first got XI then switched to rdm cause they got a sword, when I found out they sucked with it I stopped and leveled a real melee job instead of kept going with rdm and whined I couldn't melee. You level a mage job cause you want to be a mage, you level a melee job cause you want to be a melee.

Rdm is versitile. They can perform any role in this game, just not to the extent as pure built classes can. Lets see a War try to main heal a merit PT or a Sam debuff an HNM or a Drk tank JoL. Show me a Blm that can out melee a Rdm in campaign or a Drg who can work crowd control in Dynamis or a Whm who can solo a god. Rdm can do a little of everything.

hey now I've silenced Kirin quite a few times with gekko, not to be relied apon though

[Meian]

Didn't read much but let me get this straight.

RDM, the closest to being "completed" job, wants buffs just for the sake of having any.
One of the things argued is to have high sword skill, perferably A+ which is higher than BLU? Err... Blu relies on the sword more than RDM...

My main MAIN concern with RDM meleeing is it will make them spoiled, especially the noober ones, from doing their "current" job (aka refresh/haste/cure/sleep/etc)

Edit: I am aware some may say they are capable of doing their job while meleeing but srsly 2% of the population don't count.

[arus2001]

Ask them why they don't want to break it out. If you need "proof" that RDM is fine, look at Avesta and all the RDMs that challenge themselves to solo virtually everything in the game. This isn't a coincidence. The job is fine for those that know how to handle it.

Look around, you've seen reasons. Some good, some not so good, but the most popular over the years has been RDM's nothing more than a WHM with less spells for the job and Refresh/Convert.

It's probably not much of a stretch to assume SE gave RDM Convert back in the day so they could melee and rest minimally to save TP. Enter level cap increases (Melee skills get comparatively worse), IT++ fixation (Even worse still), people not wanting to play support roles (Remember when BRDs were rare?), and the fact Convert works just as well without a sword, and we basically set the groundwork for years of stagnation because people forced a use out of it. Kinda like NINs and tanking since the whole shuriken chucking thing didn't work out for varying reasons.

To damn the job purely based on solos is folly. What good does taking 3 hours to Bio Genbu to death really do for people beyond some bragging rights? How many people do you see standing in line at Gration making complaint threads because a RDM's kiting it around? Some solos are simply movement speed and terrain manipulation, or even involve zoning repeatedly. Not all of these are a RDM-specific thing, and as I noted, SE's often making things RDM Proof these days through regens and such. The truly funny aspect of this is there are other kinds solo, namely for EXP, where RDM falls well behind others, be it due to personal buff cycles slowing kill speed, or just not having the magical oomph of a BLM or SCH.

And just as many RDM don't care for the solos (particularly when used as an excuse against updating them), just as many hold no interest in tanking. Aside from JoL, Utsu's doing the brunt of the work here, and a RDM tank is just as dead as a PLD or NIN without proper support. Throw enough TAs and Cures around and even a BLM/NIN could tank as demonstrated by that old Byakko video. Hell, BRDs tanked before the Mazurka nerf. With all the number crunching people like to do with this game, it's easy to look at shit on paper and say it won't work or is impractical. In this case, the yearning for an update is in pursuit of that practicality. "Do it on your own time!" or "That's what Campaign is for!" is not said practicality, that's the math and opinions it's spawned.

[Yugl]

Any sane RDM that's okay with a melee update doesn't expect to be a DRK or SAM on the parse. However, there's not really a reason to take a melee RDM to anything even if they have the gear, subs, food, and an accommodating party layout (Which is rare in the days of 24k+/hr or gtfo).

There's a contradiction with what you're suggesting. You say RDM shouldn't be able to melee at DD level, but you want them to DD. However, the only way to allow them at frontlines is by giving them near DD status meleeing skills. If THF had the magic capabilities of RDM, it sure as hell wouldn't be in the frontlines. If DNC had the magic capabilities of RDM it wouldn't be in the frontlines either. I'll get to why this is true soon, but for now I think most will agree that the only way to bring RDM to the frontlines would be to make their melee capabilities rival that of other DDs or make RDM capable of performing its mage duties in the frontline as well as it does in the backline. In the former RDM is broken because it's capable of DDing, Tanking, and healing on a above average scale. Notice I didn't include support role, which is where I believe RDM was intended to fit. I'll address this issue later as well since it had much to do with the way enfeebles work.

The job is maybe 2/3 of what it can be. As a healer, it lacks compared to WHM.

Maybe on certain NMs and cases where Barspells/Stona is important, but I think (And many agreed with me a couple pages back) that RDM for the most part is better than WHM at healing. It's quicker and much more efficient at recovering MP.

As a nuker, a BLM is undoubtedly superior. SCH's come to pass and proven itself more the backline RDM through a heavier mage emphasis, too.

RDM and SCH have access to heals and nukes. Both are mages able to use an assortment of healing and nuke spells. SCH takes both of these spells one step further. SCH's healing capabilities increase because it gains access to higher tier Regen and Raise spells. SCH's nuking capabilities increase because it gains access to Tier IV spells and Helix spells. RDM approaches this in a different manner. Instead of continuing along this path, RDM gains access to enfeebling spells. So in terms of what each class is differentiated by, SCH's higher tier spells = RDM's enfeebling spells. This is not to suggest that they are of the same value, I am saying this is the biggest difference between the two.

Comparing jobs is inevitable when you start talking balance, or more specifically knocking RDM out of it. I mentioned 2/3 because it lacks any meaningful melee traits making that remaining 1/3 far less worthwhile than the other two individually.

You compared RDM to WHM and BLM. According to you, RDM is short of WHM in healing and short of BLM in nuking. How does improving its melee capabilities fix any of this? On a similar note, why does RDM need melee fixes to begin with? Storylines and stuff of that nature do not necessitate fixes. Balance issues do. However, even if RDM falls short of WHM and BLM within the respective categories you mentioned, melee fixes do *not* address these problems; nor would it put RDM on a more competitive scale.

I hinted on it with my post about SE's design of BLU, but later attempts at hybrid jobs shows things SE has learned. Enter Corsair, AoE near-instant buffs (Double-Up being the downer), the ability to melee decently, and even WS at range after you dump a roll on the mages. Enter BLU, with physical spell accuracy tied to the weapon, many spells requiring near-melee range, and even the ability to toggle traits out in the field. Enter DNC, while still going through some growing pains as a new job, is fueled solely on TP to provide its support and modest offense.

You want RDM capable of meleeing the way these "hybrids" melee while performing their roles. However, most of the stuff you refer to occurs because they are forced into these situations. BLU is incapable of relying solely on its spells because of issues with the nature of these spells. It's not so much of a "hey guys lets fuck around and melee!", it's more of a "hey guys we're more sufficient meleeing since trying to cast spell then sitting for MP is absolutely ridiculous and totals up to less damage!". A DNC has to melee for TP since it's the only efficient means of gaining TP. A COR DDs because it has spare time between rolls and has nothing better to do. It could sub WHM and try healing, but it's more effective DDing between rolls.

In the case of BLU and DNC, they are forced to DD in order to perform their roles. RDM has no problem doing what it needs to do (Support) without engaging the mob. COR is pretty close to what you're striving for, but there's one problem. After an RDM plays its support role, it's next most effective role is healer. What most pro-melee RDMs have been trying to do is change RDM such that the next most effective role is DD. However, as it stands, RDM is one of the best healers in the game. Can you really bump RDM's melee potential to surpass its healing potential and not have a broken class? No. So unless the updates RDM receive actually break the class, they will have minimal impact on RDM's ability to melee and certainly won't bring RDM to the frontlines.

Throughout this thread I've referred to RDM as a support role. I say this mainly because of it's enfeebling magic. It is the only one capable of using enfeebling magic with a natural A+ and higher tier enfeebling spells. The only reason RDM diverges to other roles is because of it's enfeebles and MP recovery abilities. You may disregard this point by saying enfeebles are obsolete. However, if DDing on a HNM is obsolete, does that mean SAM is no longer a DD? Is a THF not a DD because it doesn't have great damage output?

Problems with enfeebling are due to the system. Quick battles make enfeebling unnecessary. On big NMs enfeebles are resisted to hell. As it is, the problems associated with enfeebling magic occurs across the board, not just with RDM, which means the problems are associated with the nature of enfeebling. These problems do *not* make RDM any less of a enfeebler. They do however, suggest that fixes to RDM enfeebling or to the system of enfeebling itself need to occur.

[arus2001]

By pointing out RDM's lesser status to BLM and WHM, it was more of a point of acceptable loss as a hybrid for balance purposes. Comparative, albeit inverse, arguments of anger could be made toward SCH with the fact they don't have this restriction, despite Arts/Stratagem requirements. That's pretty much my foundation of SCH being more magey than RDM, the failings of Staff as a weapon and their own lack of melee traits aside.

RDM's status as a melee is also lesser, but nobody does a /sea all, finds no DDs, but there's a RDM they could ask to sub WAR, NIN, or DRK and get an acceptable physical output like you could expect of a RDM healer or a RDM nuker (preferably /SCH to cut on resists). People have historically claimed the RDM nuker would be a more efficient DD, particularly considering TP feed, but if people aren't inviting BLMs to EXP now, why take the third best magic damage option out there? Ultimately, melee has a higher DoT potential than nuking, it just requires proper gear and the accommodating party.

You're also running into the risk of falling into the trap that a melee RDM will be playing Superman: main healing, tossing out 4+ Haste/Refresh, going through their whole array of enfeebles, nuking when possible, and still having Convert at the ready for infinite MP. At most, the benefit of having a melee RDM present would be their ability to fall back if things get dicey with a link or your other healer needs a brief hand (Akin to BLU having Magic Fruit set). Nuking should technically be reserved for MBs on SCs the RDM opens, but....

RDM's status as an enfeebler in EXP is also pretty weak since WHM/BLM and BLM/WHM gain access to practically all but Gravity early on. In which case, you can just /RDM if it's really needed. Landing stuff on T-VT EXP mobs isn't that hard assuming the person's kept their skills up to date and it's not a natural affinity issue. Personally, I'm someone that does value enfeebles throughout level progression, but unless I'm the party leader, it's not uncommon to never see one cast come 55+ because "stuff dies too quick!".

The fact you're stuck on calling the job Support pretty much solidifies the point change is needed somewhere. What the RDM plays should be a style choice, no real different than a WAR/SAM preferring a GA to WAR/NIN with 2 axes. There will be times and places where certain styles are better (backline RDM on HNMs being the obvious one), but for now the options don't exist through a combination of player stigma and SE inaction.

[TybudX]

The fact you're stuck on calling the job Support pretty much solidifies the point change is needed somewhere. What the RDM plays should be a style choice, no real different than a WAR/SAM preferring a GA to WAR/NIN with 2 axes.

Really? I've played WAR/SAM, with a GAxe, and WAR/NIN, dual wielding... want to know what the difference is in play style?

Nothing.

The animation changes, that's it. Both variations do the exact same thing... swing, swing, swing, swing... swing.

What SE really needs to do is add RDM to Aegis, give them Meditate, and go ahead with bumping sword skill to A+. I'm sick of playing other jobs, we shouldn't have to choose.

[arus2001]

If you wanna half-ass the comparison, sure. Gear can still be toggled around, may wanna use sushi over meat, one's typically more suited for co-tanking, potential song or roll use varies, and different possible SCs if that's something your party cares about. Going melee on RDM is harder in the sense that it's very rare for gear to work on both mage and melee aspects in the same slot, so limited inventories become even more clogged. That doesn't even touch on the player going the extra mile to have that gear when it's easier to just go with the flow and play wannabe-whm. Of course, because we've all seen some RDMs meleeing in full AF or Errant, they all suck and will continue to suck even if they get Endeath and can octo-wield relics.

Some make it sound like this is the first job tweak SE's done to anyone in years. While this says nothing of previous updates to others being good, RDM was very close to being last after hints at updates were given years ago. It's happening no matter how much people scream overpowered without knowing the full extent of the update or SE's Master Plan(tm). Just roll with it and let those who've asked for melee attention be happy until they realize it's all as effective as DRK getting Absorb-MACC or something because SE doesn't know their own game.

[Cutriss]

So, basically, bird camps and the like have made both RDM and WHM obsolete at their normal job-specific XP tasks. People don't scream for R3s like they used to since they can get back the lost XP in like 3 fights, and RDMs don't have to enfeeble.

While WHM still needs some handling in the MP department (and please make it something that stacks with Sublimation/Refresh.....), perhaps one of the better fixes to WHM would be to make its Raise II/Reraise II/Raise III/Reraise III affect not only the XP lost...but also the weakness timer. I mean, stuff like Holy II and Enlight and Bardarkra and all that - it's completionist gravy, but it's just going to be stocking stuffers on Christmas.

[Okan]

If you wanna half-ass the comparison, sure. Gear can still be toggled around, may wanna use sushi over meat, one's typically more suited for co-tanking, potential song or roll use varies, and different possible SCs if that's something your party cares about. Going melee on RDM is harder in the sense that it's very rare for gear to work on both mage and melee aspects in the same slot, so limited inventories become even more clogged. That doesn't even touch on the player going the extra mile to have that gear when it's easier to just go with the flow and play wannabe-whm. Of course, because we've all seen some RDMs meleeing in full AF or Errant, they all suck and will continue to suck even if they get Endeath and can octo-wield relics.

Some make it sound like this is the first job tweak SE's done to anyone in years. While this says nothing of previous updates to others being good, RDM was very close to being last after hints at updates were given years ago. It's happening no matter how much people scream overpowered without knowing the full extent of the update or SE's Master Plan(tm). Just roll with it and let those who've asked for melee attention be happy until they realize it's all as effective as DRK getting Absorb-MACC or something because SE doesn't know their own game.

No, he is right. There is no difference between WAR/NIN and WAR/SAM. It's still a WAR swinging heavy weapons at a mob and once they reach 100% TP, they use a WS. In the case of the SAM, they just reach it much faster.

RDM does not need to be changed.
What does need to be changed is stuff like this:

You must have a 75 job not being BST, PUP, or DNC as your sole 75 job. It is highly preferred that you have BLM, BRD, RDM, or COR leveled or level it asap upon entering. An exception can be make if you only have BLM or BRD as your sole 75 job.

This must be fixed. Rarely, if ever, will you see a RDM turned down from an end-game LS. But those that chose any of those first three jobs will be instantly turned down REGARDLESS of what gear they have. It could be a PUP in full Usu with unlocked Mythic, and everything a PUP could want... Denied because it'd a PUP. "Go lvl BLM plz and reapp l8r thx" is what you'll get. This. Needs. Fixing.

[SenseiFF11]

Didn't read much but let me get this straight.

RDM, the closest to being "completed" job, wants buffs just for the sake of having any.
One of the things argued is to have high sword skill, perferably A+ which is higher than BLU? Err... Blu relies on the sword more than RDM...

My main MAIN concern with RDM meleeing is it will make them spoiled, especially the noober ones, from doing their "current" job (aka refresh/haste/cure/sleep/etc)

Edit: I am aware some may say they are capable of doing their job while meleeing but srsly 2% of the population don't count.

Exactly. Hopefully SE will give something to RDM so they will need to rely more on sword.(additional effect from striking: enspells ect, and beneficial effect from striking ect.)
And there are noobs in everyjobs, so it's not a solid argument, long ago only the good SAM's could do multiple SC-solo, now everyone can or so(Sekkanoki ftw).

[arus2001]

This must be fixed. Rarely, if ever, will you see a RDM turned down from an end-game LS. But those that chose any of those first three jobs will be instantly turned down REGARDLESS of what gear they have. It could be a PUP in full Usu with unlocked Mythic, and everything a PUP could want... Denied because it'd a PUP. "Go lvl BLM plz and reapp l8r thx" is what you'll get. This. Needs. Fixing.

Not saying it doesn't, but we all know SE takes baby steps. PUP has seen a lot of attention since its introduction, for better or worse. It's RDM's and WHM's "turn" now (Though WHM has seen Repose and the past Teleports as past job-specific attention), but that doesn't rule out other jobs getting a nod. NIN still hasn't gotten that temporary hate shed ability SE mentioned, for example, but they're pretty much the only job left that hasn't gotten anything specific without everyone else getting something at the same time.

Anyway, I'm wondering if people are generally letting the above jobs actually try at stuff. With DNC getting their tier 2s and relic, are they faring better? If a BST can drop a 1.1k Primal Rend on Kirin, does it stand to reason they can contribute damage elsewhere? I know PUPs lamented the Magic Mortar nerf, but weren't their Blizzard IIIs doing modest damage with the proper maneuvers/parts? I know learning more on this would require a bit of sacrifice on tried and tested optimizations for the sake of figuring things out and maybe letting someone have some fun, but that's no real different than people frowning upon mage melee because it isn't gonna win the parse.

[Okan]

(Though WHM has seen Repose and the past Teleports as past job-specific attention)

R U SRS!? These are NOTHING compared to what you two are asking for RDM. And RDM is the WAR of the Mages. It can do everything and do all of them well.

Anyway, I'm wondering if people are generally letting the above jobs actually try at stuff. With DNC getting their tier 2s and relic, are they faring better? If a BST can drop a 1.1k Primal Rend on Kirin, does it stand to reason they can contribute damage elsewhere? I know PUPs lamented the Magic Mortar nerf, but weren't their Blizzard IIIs doing modest damage with the proper maneuvers/parts? I know learning more on this would require a bit of sacrifice on tried and tested optimizations for the sake of figuring things out and maybe letting someone have some fun, but that's no real different than people frowning upon mage melee because it isn't gonna win the parse.

Because Kirin is the end of the game. Secondly, 1.1k is great, but WAR will do better RAMPAGES and even better with a G.Axe.

I'm all for letting people have fun and try the un-ordinary (Melee RDM, BST at Kirin, PUPs at HNM events). What I have a problem with is how you're saying RDM is too weak and needs major changes when it's been one of, if not the, most powerful jobs in the game even since it was created. Let me put it this way: Beastmaster is A- on axes. Dancer is B+ on daggers, Puppetmaster is C on hand-to-hand, Blue Mage is A- on swords. Maybe not the latter two, but these are jobs that only do damage THROUGH melee. As far as I know, the Puppermaster, not the doll, can only do damage through hand-to-hand and doesn't have spells. Blue Mage has the spells, but I don't know what their damage range is, or their healing range -- just that it's not enough to get them invited to xNMs.

What you're suggesting is that people have to sacrifice and work ten times harder as a BST, PUP, DNC, or BLU to be EQUAL to a sub-par WAR, SAM, DRK, or BLM... That shouldn't be the case.

[Yugl]

BLU damage depends on the NM. We rely heavily on SATACA Vertical Cleave and Cannonball. In situations where neither of the two is applicable (Spike Flail from non-flying Wyrms and Zergs), BLU fall back tremendously

[TybudX]

Yeah, BLU are one of those sleeper hits... there's no advertising involved, but the people who have seen it done well know exactly how invaluable they are. Try taking a BLU into Limbus or Salvage with a BRD and a RDM, and see how fast they can pump out damage... it's crazy. They're a tank, main DD, healer, buffer... very powerful job, and looks like a lot of fun...

... If only I had the inventory. Cause, you know, melee types like me don't use anything but TP gear... I don't have an accuracy set, a set for kiting, 2 sets for WSs, different foods, and god forbid I have a mage job levelled... or that I've soloed things a whole lot harder (and by that, I mean not DoT spam) than lolGenbu with them.

Here's an idea... RDM needs a buff because it's been so long coming? Well, BLM's last 'buff' was the elemental damage nerf, trying to prevent mana burns. Now they have to contend with SCH, who were already better than them in every aspect except -agas, and can heal to boot. The argument against SCH being flat out better than BLM was that they couldn't nuke on HNMs... this is definitely not the case, now. Why does BLM get no love? They have two useless relics, now, shouldn't that put them ahead of RDM for a buff? Honestly, access to Drain and Aspir II would be all it takes... very simple, highly MP efficient. Tack an extra 400-600 dps onto the job, and alleviate some of the need to rest (BLM being the only mage job that is still tied firmly to that).

Hey, wait, I have en even better idea! RDM should get access to Drain II and Aspir II, instead! Bump their Elemental and Dark magic skill up to, oh, an A-. Lets make it so people don't *have* to level that evil BLM job to get into an HNM shell! It's so completely unfair. If SE did this, along with the obvious A+ Sword skill and Enspell IIs that add 50-80 damage on strike, then nobody would have to level one of those dime a dozen melee jobs, either! Meditates for everybody! Songs! Rolls! RDM needs it all!

[SenseiFF11]

Yeah, BLU are one of those sleeper hits... there's no advertising involved, but the people who have seen it done well know exactly how invaluable they are. Try taking a BLU into Limbus or Salvage with a BRD and a RDM, and see how fast they can pump out damage... it's crazy. They're a tank, main DD, healer, buffer... very powerful job, and looks like a lot of fun...

... If only I had the inventory. Cause, you know, melee types like me don't use anything but TP gear... I don't have an accuracy set, a set for kiting, 2 sets for WSs, different foods, and god forbid I have a mage job levelled... or that I've soloed things a whole lot harder (and by that, I mean not DoT spam) than lolGenbu with them.

Here's an idea... RDM needs a buff because it's been so long coming? Well, BLM's last 'buff' was the elemental damage nerf, trying to prevent mana burns. Now they have to contend with SCH, who were already better than them in every aspect except -agas, and can heal to boot. The argument against SCH being flat out better than BLM was that they couldn't nuke on HNMs... this is definitely not the case, now. Why does BLM get no love? They have two useless relics, now, shouldn't that put them ahead of RDM for a buff? Honestly, access to Drain and Aspir II would be all it takes... very simple, highly MP efficient. Tack an extra 400-600 dps onto the job, and alleviate some of the need to rest (BLM being the only mage job that is still tied firmly to that).

Hey, wait, I have en even better idea! RDM should get access to Drain II and Aspir II, instead! Bump their Elemental and Dark magic skill up to, oh, an A-. Lets make it so people don't *have* to level that evil BLM job to get into an HNM shell! It's so completely unfair. If SE did this, along with the obvious A+ Sword skill and Enspell IIs that add 50-80 damage on strike, then nobody would have to level one of those dime a dozen melee jobs, either! Meditates for everybody! Songs! Rolls! RDM needs it all!

Yep I'm agree with you 100%, BLM's has been left for long time now, hopefully they will get something new that will be more related to party activities, since it was just a transportation spell.
But they recently get something at least. I know it's not something big, only a teleportation spell. Same for the whm, they did obtained something at least.(I'm not debating if those spells are usefull or useless, that is not really important for me to debate on this, since it's always based on a personal view. That means those spells can be described as good for someone, and bad for someone else. The point is they did at least obtained something new)
But if we want to be honest, the jobs that are waiting for a very long time and did not get even "one thing"(no matter if that thing is useless for some people or not) are RDM and NIN. But from what I read in some interviews the explanation from SE was that those 2 jobs were very powerfull and did not need any update for now(That was a 2006 interview).
After reading the description of the new expansion "A Shantotto Ascension", some people are saying that it's where the BLM's will finally get new spells, so we'll see.(Hopefully for them.)

[Okan]

and alleviate some of the need to rest (BLM being the only mage job that is still tied firmly to that)

You have a phone call from a Mr. Whitemage. Would you like it now or should I take a message?

But if we want to be honest, the jobs that are waiting for a very long time and did not get even "one thing"(no matter if that thing is useless for some people or not) are RDM and NIN

Didn't both of these jobs get new spells through tier 2 merits? And I think SquareEnix was right for once that both of these classes are actually powerful and do not need any updates. Sure, I don't care if they release some new En-elemental spells, but as I've been saying. There are other things much more dire that are in need of adjustments -- RDM is not even close to being on the "dire" list.

[SenseiFF11]

You have a phone call from a Mr. Whitemage. Would you like it now or should I take a message?



Didn't both of these jobs get new spells through tier 2 merits? And I think SquareEnix was right for once that both of these classes are actually powerful and do not need any updates. Sure, I don't care if they release some new En-elemental spells, but as I've been saying. There are other things much more dire that are in need of adjustments -- RDM is not even close to being on the "dire" list.

/nod yes, the only problem is the tierII merits was everyjob adjustments, they didn't had much choices to update rdm and nin at that time. Since 2005 everyjob obtained something but rdm and nin. But again, that was because SE consider them as powerfull. But mmm there is another thing similar to the RDM and NIN, those 2 jobs turned out a little bit different, if not completely different from how SE wanted them to be... sounds weird but it's true. Maybe that second part could also explain that long wait...(I said maybe). RDM were always see as someone casting to the front. And nin a ranged fighter than will use utsusemi only in critical situation where he got too much enmities, NIN was supposed to be more subtile when he fight, but it changed drastically. That was due to the decrease of Utsusemi:Ni from 8sec to 1.5, people saw the low cost of Utsusemi and abused of it.(but that is also due to the fact that SE impliment new things and say: find out yourself how to play with!)
We can maybe give those 2 explanations to the long wait for RDM and NIN, maybe SE tried to find out how to solve those issues or to re-adapt those 2 jobs, since the shift in playing style fucked their plan.
So yes SE admitted that those 2 jobs were powerfull and did not needed anything for now, but in my opinion those 2 jobs have a second similarity, they are actually a little bit different from what the developper planned.(Maybe those 2 aspects, can explain why they did not get anything since 2005. Again, I said maybe).