RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Sunrider]

And I think SquareEnix was right for once that both of these classes are actually powerful and do not need any updates.

No, what they said was that they acknowledged the power of RDM and NIN, and that updating either would be a tricky process. Never did they say that neither job needed an update.

[arus2001]

R U SRS!? These are NOTHING compared to what you two are asking for RDM. And RDM is the WAR of the Mages. It can do everything and do all of them well.

You're reading a bit too heavily into it to support your "FUCK RDM!" agenda. Repose is awesome, yes, but I wouldn't call it the sole thing WHM needed. My point was they'd at least gotten something since SE started giving stuff to new jobs. Call it a lame excuse for wanting things if you want, but why is it so many have RDM leveled according to the last census, but getting people to want to play the job can be difficult? "I have X jobs, but I always have to come RDM... " isn't an uncommon comment to see. Doesn't really help there's not a lot of endgame gear to strive for, or what there is you're put behind other jobs (Wyrmal legs for PLDs, anyone?).

[Yugl]

You're reading a bit too heavily into it to support your "FUCK RDM!" agenda. Repose is awesome, yes, but I wouldn't call it the sole thing WHM needed. My point was they'd at least gotten something since SE started giving stuff to new jobs. Call it a lame excuse for wanting things if you want, but why is it so many have RDM leveled according to the last census, but getting people to want to play the job can be difficult? "I have X jobs, but I always have to come RDM... " isn't an uncommon comment to see. Doesn't really help there's not a lot of endgame gear to strive for, or what there is you're put behind other jobs (Wyrmal legs for PLDs, anyone?).

The fact that so many have it leveled shows how effective it is in almost every aspect of FFXI. The reason it's difficult to get players to play it is because it's so good that people have to play it 24/7. I don't know about you all, but it would be damn annoying to play any class 24/7. You want to fix this? Improve other classes. If other classes are improved to the point where bringing an RDM is far less than optimal, less people will play it. The less people are forced to play it, the more people will enjoy it when they do gain the chance to play RDM. Updating RDM won't fix this. Sure they might go out to campaign and toy around with the update for a bit, but a few weeks later all the "OMFG THIS UPDATE WAS STUPID" threads will be flying all over the place. RDMs and their sword updates are just like SMNs and their ponies. They'll whine if they don't get them and they'll whine after they get them.

[SenseiFF11]

Updating RDM won't fix this. Sure they might go out to campaign and toy around with the update for a bit, but a few weeks later all the "OMFG THIS UPDATE WAS STUPID" threads will be flying all over the place. RDMs and their sword updates are just like SMNs and their ponies. They'll whine if they don't get them and they'll whine after they get them.

Just one thing please, you are talking in the name of all RDM's when you say " They'll whine if they don't get them and they'll whine after they get them":D, just try to talk for yourself please.

And RDM was nothing till they added refresh(and convert later), only one spell changed what people think about RDM. It may be the case again in march.... Maybe rdm and whm will get something to appeal the melees..(cough...cough..Regain). The reason I see Regain added is maybe also for that WHM Nyzul ws, they can come ws time to time to get mp.(That is just an idea), and RDM will be able to get TP easily for death blossom..., again that spell could be only available if the rdm or whm engage(again that is only speculation). The matter of the fact is, it's too early to say that this update will be stupid, we know how SE shocked VanaDiel when they added Refresh.
From what I heard they said it will be a major adjustment for rdm and whm, and yes they used the word "major". So it's not going to be a little adjustment. I think it's better to wait before judging if the update will be good or not.

[arus2001]

I'd say more leveled it for ToAU EXP than to endgame it. Like I said, in such a case, being pimped isn't really needed for EXP, you just need to know how to keep people happy with buff cycles and the occasional cure. It's basically the equivalent to RNGs or WARs being the kings of EXP back in the day, just SE hasn't nerfed or buffed other stuff accordingly.

[Yugl]

Just one thing please, you are talking in the name of all RDM's when you say " They'll whine if they don't get them and they'll whine after they get them":D, just try to talk for yourself please.

Sorry I'm not as crazy as you. You and the wall can start up a nice conversation if you're into those sort of things.

And RDM was nothing till they added refresh(and convert later), only one spell changed what people think about RDM. It may be the case again in march.... Maybe rdm and whm will get something to appeal the melees..(cough...cough..Regain).

You've pointed out a contradiction within your own post and you don't even realize it. The circumstance that RDM is in now is not the same as before. As you pointed out, RDM had nothing. Is that the case now? No. RDM is capable of performing lots of roles. It's settled in and has a nice place at all events. In order to change RDM's role, you would need to upgrade RDM to the point where changing roles is more beneficial than its current role. If you can't understand that, then you're not fit to continue this discussion.

The reason I see Regain added is maybe also for that WHM Nyzul ws, they can come ws time to time to get mp.(That is just an idea), and RDM will be able to get TP easily for death blossom..., again that spell could be only available if the rdm or whm engage(again that is only speculation).

So let me get this straight. Your brilliant idea to get RDM to the frontlines is to give them another buff that they can cast on *other* members? Some RDMs have enough problems dealing with their current buff cycle and now you've added another buff they'll be asked to cast on melee. I'm all for giving RDM regain, you know why? It will be another buff they can do in the backlines while casting on melees. If you think regain will bring RDM to the frontlines you're as short sighted as ever. Cast regain on a RDM and WHM over melees? Another shortsighted remark. If they did add Regain, it would just add another burden to the buff cycle.

The matter of the fact is, it's too early to say that this update will be stupid, we know how SE shocked VanaDiel when they added Refresh.
From what I heard they said it will be a major adjustment for rdm and whm, and yes they used the word "major". So it's not going to be a little adjustment. So instead of pretending that this update will suck, I think it's better to wait.

SE has said a lot of things and most of the time they turn out to be flat lies. BLUs can't learn spells from non-EP+ mobs. Mythics take the same amount of time as Relics. NIN will get a enmity JA. SE's word is about as good as your English.

I'd say more leveled it for ToAU EXP than to endgame it. Like I said, in such a case, being pimped isn't really needed for EXP, you just need to know how to keep people happy with buff cycles and the occasional cure. It's basically the equivalent to RNGs or WARs being the kings of EXP back in the day, just SE hasn't nerfed or buffed other stuff accordingly.

SE has nerfed and buffed both of them. RNG was nerfed long ago and WAR was indirectly nerfed though TP gain adjustments. If people only level RDM for XP as you suggest, then it's boring for that exact reason, not because it lacks melee potential. Tied to what you were saying earlier, it would be the same as saying that BRD needs melee adjustments because it's boring and the only reason anyone levels it is for XP/EG purposes.

[arus2001]

Honest question: If you had two strong DDs, a couple BRDs, then a WHM, would you invite a melee RDM for merits so they'd be able to exercise a bit of variety in their play as they are now?

As things are now, no new debuffs or pro-backline adjustments will change EXP. Love it or hate it, EXP is the most common activity in the game unless SE turns around and makes IT++ worth 1k a kill and building a more balanced party is worth it. If your answer to the above question is some form of, "No!" "Why should I?" or "Let them do it on their own time!" then you've pretty much indicated something's lacking,

It's not about gross exaggerations for what RDMs want. It's not about other jobs having it worse. It's about a fundamental concept falling flat on its face because the players won't let it diversify based on circumstance. It's X way or GTFO, and that's a problem at some point for every job, really. I'd almost go as far as calling it an affront to the subjob system, but I need to remember theme or concept doesn't matter here unless it's being used against a job.

[TybudX]

RED MAGE IS ALREADY THE MOST DIVERSE JOB IN THE GAME

[Okan]

Honest question: If you had two strong DDs, a couple BRDs, then a WHM, would you invite a melee RDM for merits so they'd be able to exercise a bit of variety in their play as they are now?

I pose you the same question, except replace RDM with WHM, BLM, or BRD? If you say no, you are a fucking hypocrite.

It's not about gross exaggerations for what RDMs want. It's not about other jobs having it worse. It's about a fundamental concept falling flat on its face because the players won't let it diversify based on circumstance. It's X way or GTFO, and that's a problem at some point for every job, really. I'd almost go as far as calling it an affront to the subjob system, but I need to remember theme or concept doesn't matter here unless it's being used against a job.

And I'd be willing to put money down that you are the same way, you just don't realize it.
Will you invite a PUP, BLU, or BST in to your party over a MNK, THF, or WAR? Again, I'm willing to bet you'll say no because the latter jobs do better than the former ones at damage. To clarify, I said invite them over the other, not invite them if there is nothing left. So my original statements stand. RDM is fine and other things needs to be fixed. [Exception: BLU might be good if they know what they're doing based on reports I've read of their damage]

[arus2001]

If I know they're geared properly, sure. Not uncommon for my LS to merit and bring either a lesser desired job, or someone who might be 72ish to help 'em get to 75 more quickly. BRD's melee gear matches RDM, and in some cases is superior. BST is a step above with some similarities with WAR and Lars is nothing to sneeze at. WHM is a toss-up, having more Haste options than the two, and Hexa isn't a bad WS if geared properly.

Like I said, big problem is just them being prepared because nobody wants/tolerates the activity.

[Shin Volcano]

If I know they're geared properly, sure. Not uncommon for my LS to merit and bring either a lesser desired job, or someone who might be 72ish to help 'em get to 75 more quickly. [b]BRD's melee gear matches RDM, and in some cases is superior[b/]. BST is a step above with some similarities with WAR and Lars is nothing to sneeze at. WHM is a toss-up, having more Haste options than the two, and Hexa isn't a bad WS if geared properly.

Like I said, big problem is just them being prepared because nobody wants/tolerates the activity.

Even if this was true, Brd can't come anywhere close to doing half the things RDM can, so any of that "Superior" gear is has no effect in the least bit. but what gear does BRD have that matches excatly..?

[SenseiFF11]

You've pointed out a contradiction within your own post and you don't even realize it. The circumstance that RDM is in now is not the same as before. As you pointed out, RDM had nothing. Is that the case now? No. RDM is capable of performing lots of roles. It's settled in and has a nice place at all events. In order to change RDM's role, you would need to upgrade RDM to the point where changing roles is more beneficial than its current role. If you can't understand that, then you're not fit to continue this discussion.

Nope, no contradictions at all. I did not said RDM "had" nothing, I said it was nothing.(I play this game since NA release between), and rdm "was" nothing. Not master of enfeebling magic or anything. This job was nothing at all. It looked like SE didn't know what to do with that job or I don't know. Then the adding of the spell Refresh and later convert changed the way people see RDM, they actually saw a new advantage of RDM, that is what I said.
I don't care if RDM is accepted to event now, we are talking about frontline adjustment. My point is stop pretending that this update will suck, you don't know what they will add, what hapenned in 2003 could probably happen again in march! that is what I said. And stop talking in the name of "all Red Mages", and if you seriously think that the update will suck without even knowing what they will add, leave the thread.

So let me get this straight. Your brilliant idea to get RDM to the frontlines is to give them another buff that they can cast on *other* members? Some RDMs have enough problems dealing with their current buff cycle and now you've added another buff they'll be asked to cast on melee. I'm all for giving RDM regain, you know why? It will be another buff they can do in the backlines while casting on melees. If you think regain will bring RDM to the frontlines you're as short sighted as ever. Cast regain on a RDM and WHM over melees? Another shortsighted remark. If they did add Regain, it would just add another burden to the buff cycle.

The reason I see Regain added is maybe also for that WHM Nyzul ws, they can come ws time to time to get mp.(That is just an idea), and RDM will be able to get TP easily for death blossom..., again that spell could be only available if the rdm or whm engage.(again that is only speculation).

So I don't know why you are talking about "casting on other members" in your whole comment..., idiot...
And that specualtion comes from here--->Gondai: This isn’t something where people can expect to move up front and deal out damage. This is something that will produce some beneficial result from striking the enemy.

SE has said a lot of things and most of the time they turn out to be flat lies . BLUs can't learn spells from non-EP+ mobs. Mythics take the same amount of time as Relics. NIN will get a enmity JA. SE's word is about as good as your English.

Most of the times the people that use the argument of "your language is bad", are not really intelligent and don't have strong argument to show. Funny because my english is second and I see some mistakes in yours:D.
SE never pretended that Mythic would take less times, when you'll find where they said that, post it here. SE never said "when" the NIN will get that JA to reduce their enmity in question. So it's not a lie, just people pissed to wait. So shut it. We all know RDM and WHM update is in march.
Blue mage can learn spells no matter the monster level, Easy Prey mobs have
a lower % than Tough mobs.
So far you didn't posted the supposed flat lies that SE did, what you did is posting what SE never promised as of when they will be added.

[Okan]

And I said clearly in my post that if Regain is given to RDM and WHM, it should be available for others melee if the RDM or the WHM engage the mob. So mmm your comment have nothing to do with what I said, because my idea is not adding more buff cycle.

Okay, so I engage the mob and use <stpc> in my macros instead of <t>. What did this solve now? You'll still be doing a massive haste, refresh, enfeeble, and cure cycle to allow you to do any major damage dealing in the "front lines" as WHM or RDM. If you don't refresh, haste, and enfeeble, you'll be kicked from the party and replaced by someone who will do this.

Secondly, if the elemental staves, a WHM not using one to heal is wasting MP and a RDM not using the respective elemental to enfeeble is just being silly (Depending on target mobs). Knowing this, you'll hardly EVER be able to Weapon skill or skill chain. Since you've played since NA release, you'll remember that you almost never had the tank as part of the SC due to their needs of doing Provoke and their respective job spells. This is the same case. So effectively, this change is a solo change and will not make RDM the fight line WAR replacement you wish it to be. RDM and WHM will NEVER be like this. Ever.

He isn't speaking for every RDM. He's speaking for the intelligent ones that understand that the roles of the job have been set and that they are just as much a refresh and haste bitch as WHM is a Haste and cure bitch. It won't change.

[SenseiFF11]

Okay, so I engage the mob and use <stpc> in my macros instead of <t>. What did this solve now? You'll still be doing a massive haste, refresh, enfeeble, and cure cycle to allow you to do any major damage dealing in the "front lines" as WHM or RDM. If you don't refresh, haste, and enfeeble, you'll be kicked from the party and replaced by someone who will do this.

Secondly, if the elemental staves, a WHM not using one to heal is wasting MP and a RDM not using the respective elemental to enfeeble is just being silly (Depending on target mobs). Knowing this, you'll hardly EVER be able to Weapon skill or skill chain. Since you've played since NA release, you'll remember that you almost never had the tank as part of the SC due to their needs of doing Provoke and their respective job spells. This is the same case. So effectively, this change is a solo change and will not make RDM the fight line WAR replacement you wish it to be. RDM and WHM will NEVER be like this. Ever.

He isn't speaking for every RDM. He's speaking for the intelligent ones that understand that the roles of the job have been set and that they are just as much a refresh and haste bitch as WHM is a Haste and cure bitch. It won't change.

mmmm did you honestly read what that RDM and WHM update will be about? The goal is to reduce their number of casting by making some of their enhancing magic(refresh haste ect) available from striking...I mean I don't have anything in what you said, but it looks like you are not on the same page. We already know a little about what that update will be. The only thing we don't know is what the RDM and WHM will be able to give on striking the ennemy. Hopefully refresh, haste and new beneficial status such as Regain... again that is only speculation. But what we can all say for sure is they will be able to give some enhancing magic to other melee if they engage... and they want WHM to be able to keep up their own mp if they melee, so maybe a % of their dmg will be transfered to mp.

Between enfeebling while meleeing is not an issue for RDM melee, that is actually how they are supposed to get hate if they tank, so unless you know anything about RDM I suppose you to not say anything about it. Updating the frontline of RDM will not change the "role" of the RDM like you said. A meleeing RDM is not changing is main job, never ever. If you can't do your job while meleeing, don't put your weakness of playing a job to every Red Mages! The only problem is that they cast "too much" and swing less, and that update is about it.

And they don't have much choices for that frontline thingy.
1) they put the spells so rdm have to be near the mob in order to cast(that is what blu is doing, I doubt they will do it for rdm)
2) or they make ga spells
3) or rdm and whm do what DCN's is doing, but instead of tp it will be with mp to not break the image of the "mage".
I don't see any other possibilites than those 3 listed here, and from the 2 last interviews, they choosed the third option Okan.

[SenseiFF11]

Discussion made by a friend, post your thoughts: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=PEX4ehw53_Y

[Okan]

Can you link these interviews? The only one I found was from Milkman in the beginning of December and all it touched was HNMs and that "they don't know how to handle it" (Answer: Move the fucking HNMs, at least the abjurations and items (Ridill, Defending Ring, etc) in to the BCNMs. That was easy.).

And that video didn't do anything but make no sense. Red Mages are a jack of all trades.. They are not a master of the sword... So uhh.. I'm lost?

[SenseiFF11]

Can you link these interviews? The only one I found was from Milkman in the beginning of December and all it touched was HNMs and that "they don't know how to handle it" (Answer: Move the fucking HNMs, at least the abjurations and items (Ridill, Defending Ring, etc) in to the BCNMs. That was easy.).

And that video didn't do anything but make no sense. Red Mages are a jack of all trades.. They are not a master of the sword... So uhh.. I'm lost?

I can give you the link yes, here is the most clear one, cause SE is sometimes vague when they answer NA questions, don't ask me why I don't know. This one is the JP interview: http://www.jpbutton.com/?p=1374

As for the video I don't know lol, I will listen carefully again, but I think he said: Red mages are a jack of all trades and master of none.
Anyway, I'm not agree with that definition of "master of none", that definition was true when they released FFXI, but not anymore. I think SE wanted to make RDM mastering nothing, and give enfeeb to blm and enhancing to whm, they probably changed their mind. Also if you want to read all the update history of jobs here is a link: http://www.jpbutton.com/?page_id=113

[arus2001]

Even if this was true, Brd can't come anywhere close to doing half the things RDM can, so any of that "Superior" gear is has no effect in the least bit. but what gear does BRD have that matches excatly..?

BRD's capable of quite a bit, it's just not common you see talk about it because it's like RDM in the sense that kills won't be the slightest bit quick in a solo. Basically, if it can be slept, it can be soloed. Hell, a BRD/RDM could solo lolGenbu if they wanted to through Bio and Ballad.

As for actual TP gear, Haste/ACC hybrid build common among RDMs who actually care about gearing right can be worn by BRD. Turban, PCC, Brutal, SH+1, Dusk Hands/Feet, Acc Rings, Amemet +1, Volunteer's Brais, and Sushi since you'll never be Meat ready and asking for ACC songs if other melees don't need them is kind of a no no (then again, you could technically Pianissimo yourself). Weapon can depend on sub, with Blau/Joyeuse and Suppa being good for /NIN, or main Joyeuse for something like BRD/DNC where you'd see an ACC Bonus and can maintain Sambas for your melee. WS gear is where BRD actually outdoes RDM through access to Hecatomb, but otherwise shares the same spots.

Main beef I see amongst those against support melee is that this gear is basically a Wal-Mart THF (aside from Heca) without the perks of SATA for damage. I haven't seen talk of BRD's Nyzul WS since it came out, but I do recall someone breaking 1.8k on birds outside of AZ. That sure has hell beats the shit out of Evisceration or even RDM's Death Blossom, but I wouldn't expect that commonly in merits if at all due to level differences.

[Okan]

Did you read the interview, or just glimpse through and read the line "To allow RDMs to move up front"?

Gondai: This isn’t something where people can expect to move up front and deal out damage. This is something that will produce some beneficial result from striking the enemy. Now, there will still be times where your party will tell you to move back, but we hope with these additions, there will be situations where your party will want to invite you up front to melee the enemy. We’re thinking of how we can produce these situations.

This is just to allow you to melee, not be mega damage like you think.

Gondai: Yes, like that. Other jobs can restore their own MP, so we are thinking of a White Mage getting the chance to melee up front while being able to keep their own MP up.

Nice knowing all the RDM, WHM, and BLM that decide to melee and get one-shotted for over healing, nuking, or random AoE.

Gondai: The type of weapon won’t be an issue, as I think that is best left free for the player to choose.

This tells me that they are not increasing the skills of sword or dagger because if they do that, then it'll eliminate the use of the other. They want players to make the choice of which to use.

WS gear is where BRD actually outdoes RDM through access to Hecatomb

Though it may be different due to time now, if people were going to be stingy about letting a BST lot Hecatomb and Adaman gear, I don't see how they'll be handing it over to BRDs.

[SenseiFF11]

Did you read the interview, or just glimpse through and read the line "To allow RDMs to move up front"?



This is just to allow you to melee, not be mega damage like you think..

Where did you fucking saw me mentioning something about mega damage? I knew you were stupid and not on the same page as people here, but now you are going too far. I never talked about dealing mega damage, fucking idiot.

Gondai: The type of weapon won’t be an issue, as I think that is best left free for the player to choose.
This tells me that they are not increasing the skills of sword or dagger because if they do that, then it'll eliminate the use of the other. They want players to make the choice of which to use.

Next time quote the whole sentence idiot:

Gondai: Red Mages were built upon a concept of being flexible and good with a sword, so we’re preparing to allow them to assume a more offensive role.

The sentence you quoted does not mean anything as we all know RDM is mastering enhancing magic, and that RDM obtained an increase in sword AND dagger at the same time in 2003. What that means for your little brain? maybe nothing, but for some people yes.
DCN can be considered as a whm-frontline, blu a blm-frontline. rdm could be what sch is, that means increase their combat skills with an enhancing magic for a period of time like SCH's do with grimoire. Or SE could enhance the sword AND dagger skill at the same time, like they already did it 2003! So that could explain the half-sentence you quoted! (I'm not saying they will get any enhancing magic to increase their combat skill, or they will get increase in sword and dagger like they did in 2003, but it's a possibility! I'm just saying that the way you analyze interviews is stupid, next time be carefull because that sentence you quoted can mean everything, same for the sentence I quoted!)