RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Cutriss]

What...you think they're going to give WHM something like Enregainspikes? So that they can...you know...totally gut DNC's ability?

It's my personal opinion that the best people to level and play Red Mage would be those who did so previously for White Mage. If the enjoyment of supporting your fellow players in their adventures isn't enough for you, then get a clue and find another fucking job to level.

End of line.

[SenseiFF11]

What...you think they're going to give WHM something like Enregainspikes? So that they can...you know...totally gut DNC's ability?

It's my personal opinion that the best people to level and play Red Mage would be those who did so previously for White Mage. If the enjoyment of supporting your fellow players in their adventures isn't enough for you, then get a clue and find another fucking job to level.

End of line.

And why do you ask that question here?
Ask it to the person that did the interview or ask it to SE... ask them what they mean by; beneficial effect from striking.
All we can do is guessing.
Between, DCN is not doing something really "special", they are kinda doing what WHM is doing but with tp, and some RDM abilities too. The only special thing they have honestly is they need to strike in order to give beneficial status and enfeeb... but they are still mirroring some of the WHM and RDM abilities.
So I don't see why RDM and WHM couldn't do the same with MP instead of tp.
SE said clearly that DCN was made for low level party where people have hard time to find a WHM..., and for sub.

[arus2001]

Though it may be different due to time now, if people were going to be stingy about letting a BST lot Hecatomb and Adaman gear, I don't see how they'll be handing it over to BRDs.

Yeah, it's tricky making people happy in part due to mob rarity or stuff even dropping. I'd actually rather have some new gear added tailoring specifically to these roles to help alleviate congestion a bit, but SE has a habit of getting close to doing something right, but just falling short. The fact RDM can't equip any of the ZNM sets was a definite letdown when Enkidu stuff would've been nice.

[Okan]

You have been talking about being more versatile and doing more damage with swords because you have DUELER on your armor and should be able to melee more. So you didn't specifically state "mega damage" but you implied it.

And what the hell are you talking about. I did quote the entire sentence. Let me quote it WITH the question:

Right now, they have considerable skill in both Dagger and Sword. Will they both receive enhancements?

Gondai: The type of weapon won’t be an issue, as I think that is best left free for the player to choose.

That's it. The whole thing. It goes on to another question after that...
And again, I quoted the ENTIRE sentence on the second part:

Now, how about Red Mages?

Gondai: Red Mages were built upon a concept of being flexible and good with a sword, so we’re preparing to allow them to assume a more offensive role.

So... What the hell are you talking about? I understand that English is not your first language, but what you are stating actually does not make any sense. Honest truth.

[SenseiFF11]

You have been talking about being more versatile and doing more damage with swords because you have DUELER on your armor and should be able to melee more. So you didn't specifically state "mega damage" but you implied it.

And what the hell are you talking about. I did quote the entire sentence. Let me quote it WITH the question:


That's it. The whole thing. It goes on to another question after that...
And again, I quoted the ENTIRE sentence on the second part:


So... What the hell are you talking about? I understand that English is not your first language, but what you are stating actually does not make any sense. Honest truth.

Please quote the sentence where you saw me talking about dealing more damage on RDM. You know you don't need to lie about what people never said just to make your point more valid, that is just is immoral. I said many times on this thread that RDM is not a DD. Quote me on where I said RDM should deal more DMG.

Here is what Gondai said:

The type of weapon won’t be an issue, as I think that is best left free for the player to choose.
Gondai: Red Mages were built upon a concept of being flexible and good with a sword, so we’re preparing to allow them to assume a more offensive role.

You concluded this after reading what Gondai said:

This tells me that they are not increasing the skills of sword or dagger because if they do that, then it'll eliminate the use of the other. They want players to make the choice of which to use.

The question is what "you" are talking about.

With those sentences, you are pretending that they will not increase the sword skills of RDM.
I'm telling you that it's false, the way you analyzed the interview is stupid!
RDM obtained an increase in sword and dagger skills, at the same times, and that was in 2003.
Conclusion: You cannot conclude that they will not increase the RDM sword skill by reading what Gondai said. Because, they can increase the sword and dagger skills at the sametime like they did in 2003. So when he say:"The type of weapon won’t be an issue, as I think that is best left free for the player to choose." it doesn't mean they will not get a sword increase like you said. Because they can increase them at once together.
You can logically say they they will obtain an increase in sword and dagger, or only sword with the way they describe rdm with his sword. But you cannot conclude that they will not get any increase on sword or dagger. Capicé?!

[Okan]

I can conclude that they won't increase the sword and dagger skill because if they did, there would be some insanely pissed off melee jobs that are equal to or less than a mage job in weapon skill. A job, mind you, that can effectively nuke and heal itself while the melee job only has well... melee.
If they did increase it, you'd at best get a B+. Congrats. You miss 1% less now.

[SenseiFF11]

I can conclude that they won't increase the sword and dagger skill because if they did, there would be some insanely pissed off melee jobs that are equal to or less than a mage job in weapon skill. A job, mind you, that can effectively nuke and heal itself while the melee job only has well... melee.
If they did increase it, you'd at best get a B+. Congrats. You miss 1% less now.

This tells me that they are not increasing the skills of sword or dagger because if they do that, then it'll eliminate the use of the other. They want players to make the choice of which to use.

Cool 2 different reason, I bet you just found out that second reason after I explained you how not appropriate your interview analysis was.
Hey one question. You really think SE listen, when people cry that a job is too powerfull?

[Okan]

Apparently they do. Quite a few jobs have been nerfed.

And it's not two different reasons. One states that one will not be "buffed" over the other and the other statements states that i highly doubt there will be any buff to RDM weapon skills because of the levels attached to other jobs.

[Cutriss]

Hey one question. You really think SE listen, when people cry that a job is too powerfull?

As long as it's not SAM, yes. Square has a proven history of fellating SAM.

SE said clearly that DCN was made for low level party where people have hard time to find a WHM..., and for sub.

So, nobody should take DNC past 37?

Please illustrate where SE said that, as what I've read has not been indicative of that at all. Until then...You're full of crap with statements like that. Lord only knows why we keep feeding trolls here.

[Okan]

Hey now. He never said anything like that. Quote the full sentence you moron!

[SenseiFF11]

As long as it's not SAM, yes. Square has a proven history of fellating SAM.So, nobody should take DNC past 37?

Please illustrate where SE said that, as what I've read has not been indicative of that at all. Until then...You're full of crap with statements like that. Lord only knows why we keep feeding trolls here.

Nah I never said people should not pass it level 37 learn how to read nooby.
So let me guess, you have read none of those interviews, but you are arguing about that? very nice. Next time search the interview yourself, and then come tell who is full of crap.

[link deleted]
Final Fantasy XI Fan Fest live: devs speak out on Wings of the Goddess - Massively
Final Fantasy XI: Dancer and Scholar Interview | Ten Ton Hammer
Final Fantasy XI: Wings of the Goddess Preview from 1UP.com

Ogawa: Yes, that of course is true. By the way, Wings of the Goddess added Scholar and Dancer, were designed to be support jobs that could shake up current play styles, while the three jobs added in Treasures of Aht Urghan, Blue Mage, Corsair and Puppetmaster, were made to stand apart as unique main jobs.

Talking about the Dancer specifically, the team noted that the class is designed to work well in smaller parties, such as groups of 3 "where you don't have enough people but would still be effective so you wouldn't have to get a White Mage."

Hopefully will finally understand what I meant when I said that DCN was made mainly for sub, while AHT jobs was designed to be "unique main jobs", I meant that don't be surprised to see another job mirroring what DCN's are doing! because DCN is already mirroring WHM and RDM, they are not doing something very special, only thing they have is it's TP based. And SCH was made for WHM so they can sub it mainly, I hope you knew that too! That doesn't mean you can't bring them to level 75!

[Okan]

Only thing I found about DNC and low level was this comment:

Gondai: The new jobs were not designed solely with high level play in mind. In fact, we focused on the low level aspects of the dancer to cement its position as a viable support job. In the case of the scholar however, the abilities and flexibility of the job become far more apparent at the higher levels of the game.

What you quoted was about SMALLER parties of say 4 or less. Not LOW level. I'll chalk that up to English mistakes.

What you bolded was in reference to BLU, COR, and PUP. They were stating how DNC and SCH were created to be more unique support jobs (SJ), but still capable at higher level and COR, PUP, and BLU were created to be effective main jobs, not support jobs.


And I've tried to ignore it, but the acronym is DNC, not DCN. Think of spelling Dancer. DaNCer. It's not a daCNer. DNC, DNC, DNC.

[SenseiFF11]

Only thing I found about DNC and low level was this comment:

What you quoted was about SMALLER parties of say 4 or less. Not LOW level. I'll chalk that up to English mistakes.

What you bolded was in reference to BLU, COR, and PUP. They were stating how DNC and SCH were created to be more unique support jobs (SJ), but still capable at higher level and COR, PUP, and BLU were created to be effective main jobs, not support jobs.


And I've tried to ignore it, but the acronym is DNC, not DCN. Think of spelling Dancer. DaNCer. It's not a daCNer. DNC, DNC, DNC.

Aht and wotg job are all effective as support. I said and repeat, sch and dcn were "mainly" made for sub job, "mainly". When they did those jobs, they focused more on make them very appealing for subjobs, they said clearly that they made SCH so WHM can sub it, and DNC to give another options to tanks and use it in low level party where people can't get a whm or low man party. Read the link I posted you will find it there. And again I'll repeat myself, I never said that DNC and SCH are not capable at higher level.

[Okan]

I give up. You are just not understanding what I am saying.

[SenseiFF11]

I give up. You are just not understanding what I am saying.

I didn't said what you said was false. You just forgot to mention one thing: they also made it when people can't find a WHM.
And let's just drop it cause I was just trying to explain to this guy to not be surprised to see WHM mirroring what dcn is doing.

[SenseiFF11]

Anyway here is the interview they did after last Fan Festival after they added the 2 new jobs, DNC and SCH.

One of the big concerns in the FFXI community -- and I don't know if you plan to announce anything to this effect -- and it's nice to have all these support jobs, but what we really are beginning to run out of are tanks. Sure you can make do with a lot of other, non-Paladin, non-Ninja jobs with a WAR sub if you want, but they're not really optimal as tanks...yet. How do you plan to address the tank shortage?

MG: I had to ask if it's OK to say this, but while there won't be a new job, we're going to make a major adjustment to an existing job so that it can be more of a tank type job. For now it's just one job. However, for example, during a battle with a NM or HNM battle, this job type might not be the best choice, or a complete tank type, but in most cases it will be effective as a tank.

1UP: Did you guys create new support jobs because you didn't want to see new, unused melee jobs languishing around? Basically, did you not want to create a new DRG or PUP?

KO: That had nothing to do with it.

AM: One of the big reasons for creating the Dancer is because for low-level parties it's hard to find a White Mage to heal them, because everyone's leveled their WHM. Now at low levels they'll be able to invite these characters that can fight as well as heal in the same parties.

1UP: I see. Will one of the lesser-used job classes be the one adjusted to become the new tank class?

MG: I don't think it's one of the least-popular jobs. It's a job with some popularity.

Source: http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pa...Id=3164429&p=1

That was last december interview, and we know that they never added a "major adjustment" to one job since then. All the jobs adjustments was minor. They only did one major adjustment but it was "major battle related tweaks", and it was not adressed to anyjob in particular, it was the level sync and the gears scale down in cap area. We are still waiting for that supposed "major adjustment", to an existing job for 1 year now, I don't know what that job is though. Maybe the 2 JA gave to THF's?

[Yugl]

Nope, no contradictions at all. I did not said RDM "had" nothing, I said it was nothing.(I play this game since NA release between), and rdm "was" nothing. Not master of enfeebling magic or anything. This job was nothing at all.

It was nothing because it had nothing. In this case the two are correlated. The fact that RDM has A+ Enfeebling and Tier 2 enfeebles, yet is unrecognized as an enfeebler only proves my point that it needs an enfeebling update instead of a meleeing update. More importantly, the fact that enfeebles aren't utilized effectively within merit situations shows that the entire system needs an overhaul. Notice that all of these updates RDM could use for its main role. None of these updates have to do with meleeing, and nothing you have said in this thread suggests RDM needs an update.

According to you, storyline, titles, names of AFs, and other assortments of crap determine when a class needs an update. Of course in order to provide this update you're willing to break balance within the game. Even your ideas that wouldn't make RDM broken wouldn't have an effect in changing RDM's role. DD is a *highly* sought role. Unless RDM can outperform said DDs, they will not transfer to the melee role. Until then, they will maintain less available roles.

It looked like SE didn't know what to do with that job or I don't know.

You didn't know then and you don't know now. It's clear from the A+ enfeebling magic that RDM had an intended role. The problem was they didn't implement it correctly, so they had to fix it using Refresh and Convert. Some may use this and say "Well look they changed RDM's role from support to healer!". Well guess what? That's because RDM's ability as a healer outweighed its role as a support. Now lets apply that to the current situation. Will RDM meleeing outweigh its role as a healer? If so, then RDM will truly be broken, especially considering how highly competitive the DD base is already.

Then the adding of the spell Refresh and later convert changed the way people see RDM, they actually saw a new advantage of RDM, that is what I said.

According to you, RDM was nothing. If that's the case, it can't have a *new* advantage as you suggest.

I don't care if RDM is accepted to event now, we are talking about frontline adjustment.

And almost everyone here except for you says that frontline adjustments for RDM is a stupid idea. BINGO.

My point is stop pretending that this update will suck, you don't know what they will add, what hapenned in 2003 could probably happen again in march!

If it does happen then RDM will be broken (A point you continue to refuse) because it doesn't need an adjustment.

And stop talking in the name of "all Red Mages", and if you seriously think that the update will suck without even knowing what they will add, leave the thread.

These "tweaks" aren't going to be enough, sadly,

That's what the OP said himself. I guess he should gtfo his own thread right?

So I don't know why you are talking about "casting on other members" in your whole comment..., idiot...

Maybe because it's entirely possible to engage and cast on others? Idiot.

Maybe because DB's magic evasion down hasn't been figured out yet? Idiot.

Maybe because it's more effective to give WHM a MP refresh spell and give RDM a magic evasion down spell? Idiot.

And that specualtion comes from here--->Gondai: This isn’t something where people can expect to move up front and deal out damage. This is something that will produce some beneficial result from striking the enemy.

Too bad this thread isn't about speculation, it's about how idiotic SE is for giving RDM and WHM melee adjustments instead of useful adjustments.

Most of the times the people that use the argument of "your language is bad", are not really intelligent and don't have strong argument to show.

I don't pick on other people's English without good reason. You're a special case (Emphasis on special) though since you don't even know the meaning of what you're saying. It's like me telling you monkey-cat-dog-shit-your-face then saying "I'm not talking about you I'm talking about your family."

SE never pretended that Mythic would take less times, when you'll find where they said that, post it here.

SE has said a lot of things and most of the time they turn out to be flat lies . BLUs can't learn spells from non-EP+ mobs. Mythics take the same amount of time as Relics. NIN will get a enmity JA. SE's word is about as good as your English.

I didn't say SE said Mythics take less time dipshit.

SE never said "when" the NIN will get that JA to reduce their enmity in question. So it's not a lie, just people pissed to wait.

It's a lie until it happens.

Blue mage can learn spells no matter the monster level, Easy Prey mobs have
a lower % than Tough mobs.

2006 - (04/18/2006) - The New Jobs - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

Here they say BLU magic cannot be learned from mobs that do not yield XP. Looks like they *did* lie according to you. Also, there's no proof that there's a higher percent chance of learning spells from Tough mobs than from EP mobs.

When BLU was released, SE said that players could only learn spells off EP+ mobs. What you've just posted shows that SE is capable of flat out lying to the playerbase. Way to prove my point for me idiot.

[Cutriss]

Nah I never said people should not pass it level 37 learn how to read nooby.

I'm not the one with reading comprehension issues, ass.

Hopefully will finally understand what I meant when I said that DCN was made mainly for sub, while AHT jobs was designed to be "unique main jobs", I meant that don't be surprised to see another job mirroring what DCN's are doing! because DCN is already mirroring WHM and RDM, they are not doing something very special, only thing they have is it's TP based. And SCH was made for WHM so they can sub it mainly, I hope you knew that too! That doesn't mean you can't bring them to level 75!

Ogawa: Yes, that of course is true. By the way, Wings of the Goddess added Scholar and Dancer, were designed to be support jobs that could shake up current play styles, while the three jobs added in Treasures of Aht Urghan, Blue Mage, Corsair and Puppetmaster, were made to stand apart as unique main jobs.

Talking about the Dancer specifically, the team noted that the class is designed to work well in smaller parties, such as groups of 3 "where you don't have enough people but would still be effective so you wouldn't have to get a White Mage."

I understand this is problematic considering how inconsistently it is used...but what you need to realize here is that "Support job" != "Subjob". "Support job" = RDM, BRD, COR, any job that is not immediately a tank or a DD, and depending on your definitions, a healer as well. "Support job" = "A job that supports other players".

You can definitely chalk this one up to both language barriers and also SE being perenially vague and inconsistent. Yes, /SCH helps WHM and SMN a whole lot, but they weren't added specifically to be subjobs.

I know this is BG and Advanced, but if you could step off with the condescending attitude, you might manage to get a little further with your ideas.

[Nirokun!]

I've been reading and banging my head on the keyboard

He cannot communicate his ideas clearly enough, then turns around and criticizes people (with namecalling) when they dont follow his thought pattern. There's so much "I didnt say that," because of a mix of:
1) he's crazy and is soooo melee-oriented that he loses focus on the big idea, and falls back on "we're getting it anyway, prove me wrong" and "rdm has sword skill and enspells"
2) language barrier preventing subtleties from being communicated, he denies things that he's implying from his "arguments" (whether he knows it or not)
3) poor candidate for advanced forums

I'd yell at the people stooping down to namecalling back at him, but this is BG forums, say something wrong and 10 people will pop up and drag you through the mud.

My thoughts~

RDM: enspell2 with -m.eva would bring them close to a monster but prevent them from meleeing. its a nod to their unique spell line that can be beneficial to their role as an enfeebler, yet wouldnt buff their melee potential aside from a slightly higher (if at all) additional effect.

WHM: fuck if i know. something about wanting to extend what they plan for rdm to whm, but whm doesnt have an enspell I want to send them a letter entitled:

GIVE ME REFRESH AND ACCESSION

...that reads like...

Hi,

GIVE ME REFRESH AND ACCESSION

Love,
Nirokun~

[Izzy]

GIVE ME REFRESH AND ACCESSION

...that reads like...

Hi,

GIVE ME REFRESH AND ACCESSION

Love,
Nirokun~

I love you.